Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

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SimpleLife
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Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by SimpleLife »

My father is still working and is almost 80. I've stood on my own two feet, paid my own way through college, all since 18 years old. Now I'm financially successful, high income, high net worth (well, relative to most people, not a millionaire yet).

Anyways, my friends, every single one of them, also my age, and some in their 40's, have had parent hand outs their entire lives and still do even to this day. One friend is about to turn 35, and after his parents are paying for his graduate degree...which he has been pursuing for EIGHT years, at a for profit school. Parents paid for his wedding, parents pay for pretty much everything for him. Largely to try to get him to where he can succeed, but he just can't seem to do it. For some reason the ones who are coddled don't seem to succeed, at least in my small circle of friends.

Pretty much the same story for all of my friends. I on the other hand have had to stand on my own two feet and obtain financial success on my own. Heck, my dad never even taught me how to talk to girls. He was a good father, don't get me wrong. I just wonder, is it now owed to him for me to take care of him? Pretty mucked up life when you watch all of your friends get mommy/daddy hand outs well into adult hood, because they can't make it, yet because you made it, even against all odds, you are somehow in a position that people want to benefit from your success.

The way I figure it, standing on my own two feet since I was 18 and making it so I don't need his help, don't need an inheritance, etc., IS my way of helping him out. He could be paying for my grad school tuition, weddings, housing, etc. like my friends have been getting their entire lives.

Yes, he brought me into this world, but I didn't ask to be born, and frankly, with increasingly heavy handed regulations, taxes, laws, and rapid loss of rights and increased risk of lawsuits and the general difficulty of making it in today's world, I've elected not to have kids because I don't want to subject them to this world, where a burglar breaking into your house hurts himself and successfully sues you, even after going to jail...Google it, it happens more often than you realize and is just one example of a world that is getting crazier.

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GandK
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by GandK »

I wish there were a simple answer to this question, too.

My parents are set for life, but we're struggling with this issue with G's mom, who's in the same boat as your dad. G's the only functional child in the family; he has an older brother who's mildly mentally disabled and does not work. His mom still works - in her 80s - to take care of herself, the disabled brother, and the disabled brother's 11-yo son. She's an amazing woman in many respects. That's the good side of her character.

The bad side is that she spends every cent she makes. Not because she must, but because she doesn't seem to know how to not spend. She took social security at 62 to "invest it and make a better return." That didn't happen. Ditto her promotions and raises. She raises their (already middle class) living standard instead. Like a lot of Greatest Generation folks, she's a semi-hoarder who gets a feeling of security from having lots of stuff. She now must work, because she can't quit and keep them where they are. For years G gave his mom solid financial advice but she would not listen. Powdered butt syndrome... he's being too controlling... it's none of his business, etc. Except that we all know it is his business. If she dies, we're the only family my BIL and nephew have. With what resources would we support them? The answer seems to be "our own." It's pretty clear that she expects us to just do what she's done for them: pay for everything. And if we do that, there goes G's retirement. So we're not only wondering what we'll do if she becomes frail, we're also wondering what to do with my BIL and nephew. (The one piece of good news is that she'll certainly qualify for Medicaid nursing home care since they have no assets.)

G has never had any patience with his brother's infirmities. My BIL's disability is anxiety, which appears to make him unable to hold down a job. G is a bootstrapped self-made success who has never had anything handed to him. So naturally, he thinks all his brother needs is gumption and a swift kick in the ass. I'm not sure there's not something actually wrong, but in either case, G will not consent to our supporting my BIL financially ("funding his retirement instead of saving for ours"). My BIL gets disability and can go get a roommate, G figures. My nephew is another story. We both want to see him through high school, if it comes to that, and would help with college like we've done with our own kids. But I don't think it would be healthy to just up and separate my nephew from his dad if his grandmother just died. So I'm not sure what we'll do.

We can't force my MIL to plan better or spend differently, so all we're doing at present is praying that she lives (and is able to work) another 7-8 years until my nephew graduates from high school. :( By then, G will be retired, too, and we can help care for her physically ourselves if need be.

Edited to add: Public opinion on this issue seems to be split 50/50.

George the original one
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by George the original one »

Who cares what benefits your friends received? That's an irrelevant distraction.

What matters is the relationship between you, your siblings, and your parents. As your dad gradually fades away due to senility, are you really going to turn your back on him? Are you really that distanced from him?

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GandK
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by GandK »

A similar thread from a few years ago: Filial Responsibility Laws

Tyler9000
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Tyler9000 »

Family is complicated. And every situation is different, so it's hard to generalize.

That said, it's important to remember that "caring" for parents does not necessarily equate to "paying" for parents. One can provide great care without paying a dime, or provide lots of money with no care involved. They're two very different things, although in today's society they do get confused a lot.

George the original one
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by George the original one »

SimpleLife wrote:and frankly, with increasingly heavy handed regulations, taxes, laws, and rapid loss of rights and increased risk of lawsuits and the general difficulty of making it in today's world, I've elected not to have kids because I don't want to subject them to this world
WARNING: THREAD HIJACK!

Dude, the past 250 years has been the best for USA citizens, though it often came at a cost for non-whites. Compared to the Classical times, the Middle Ages, or modern war-torn countries, us and our descendants have conditions a thousand-fold better than they do. Have you considered how much those "heavy-handed regulations" have actually helped? No slavery, no child-labor, workplace safety, fire safety, travel safety, reduced pollution, residential construction, upward mobility, reduction of armed conflict, etc.

Sure, we flounder & flail around a bunch, but repealing the progress made would be a mistake. Not having children on account of a perceived future is poor reasoning when there are plenty of other reasons to not have children (e.g. world population or you don't consider yourself a good parent or you'd rather just be selfish).

IlliniDave
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by IlliniDave »

Back to the OP, I suppose it's a up to the dynamics of individual situations. My parents were good parents, did not support me financially as an adult, did not pay my way through college (they did let me stay in my old room during breaks in school), and I couldn't face myself in the mirror if I turned my back on them should that day come when they are in need. It isn't about debts and settling old accounts. To me it's family.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

'Tis very true that nobody "asks" to be born. Much too mild of a verb to apply to that eventuality. Like saying that the Devil "asked" to take your soul or the wolf "asked" to dine upon your liver. Perhaps, you meant that you didn't ask to be conceived? I think we can all, regardless of opinion on exact moment post-conception "you" came into existence, agree that to state otherwise would be quite nonsensical. Therefore, given no overt contract between sentient beings regarding such an obligation, it probably comes down to whether or not you believe that either social or natural contract should apply. My personal opinion on the matter, which may be somewhat motivated by self-interest, is that if I was in labor for 36 hours and breast-fed somebody for a year and taught him how to read and fed him until he achieved the height of 6' 3" and grew a beard, then there exists a natural contract under which he is obliged to come over and help me build an earthship where I may dwell in my old age. In addition, since I am old-fashioned, I also believe that any man who is currently having sex with me is under some level of natural contract obligation to assist me with my earthship project (and maybe even my daughter's boyfriend might choose to help out if he knows what is good for him.) If this were not so, then,clearly, it would not be in my nature to favor men with well-developed musculature as bed-mates or baby-daddies, and I would just cuddle up to ATM machines and then go rent some power tools.

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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by jacob »

I should hope this issue goes beyond any kind of imposed natural contract, social contract, or financial tit-for-tat. All of these turn me off morally.

If I learned that my parents created me as a part of their retirement plan: Well, that'd be the end of that. I didn't sign any contracts; nor was I in any legal state to sign for quite a few years, say until age 18. I'm firmly in the camp of "I didn't ask to be born, so I'm not culpable to fit into any designs my parents may have." (I realize this is a very culturally determined issue. For example, filial responsibility is an extremely strong value in Asian cultures.)

NB: SimpleLife's lament about the world wrt to having children is a large part of my own reason not to have any. The other being that I'm simply too selfish to desire parenthood. But there's more to "life" than just not being shot at or starved or having high incomes or life expectancy. This is a separate issue though.

If governments want to punt on the previous social contract that the state and/or individuals arrange for their own old age and now put the onus on relatives just because they can't bring their own financial house in order and/or wrote checks they, the government, couldn't cash?! (Put it another way, in Western cultures, where individualism and social contracts are strong values, the idea of the government changing such a contract is also not well received. Essentially, this is not something that can be legislated into law asap. It requires a generational paradigm shift.)

If anyone in my family/friends circle showed up with a running tally of the relation to argue who owed who what, etc. complete with historic dollar figures. OMGWTF ... That'd definitely be the end of that.

Arguing relative success in financial terms is just crude in my opinion. It doesn't matter to me how much people have or how much they make(*). What matters is how they handle what they have and what they do with what they make. This is what I'm paying attention to. In other words, I'm more concerned about their success as a human being (admittedly vaguely defined ... probably has a lot to do with how closely they are aligned with my personal values :-P ) than whatever the income statements or balance sheets may reveal. By success as a human being, I mean, are they kind(**)? Are they responsible? Do they add value to the world or do they consume it? Such things are readily observable by the priorities and actions of anyone.

(*) Basically because I've observed a range of no less than 8 figures where there doesn't seem to be much of any correlation between how much anyone makes and how interesting, nice, clever, smart, intelligent, conscientious, considerate, etc. they are.
(**) Well-intentioned. Desire to improve the world? Other people?

There are four kinds of people (in my little illustrative model)

1) People who are responsible and kind. Likely these guys don't need any help anyway, but I'd help them anytime. Even at a personal loss. Fortunately, my parents fall into this category.
2) People who are irresponsible and kind. They have the right heart, but they lack the right brain. To put it harshly, they aren't functional adults even if they're great parents. (look up transactional analysis if you missed the framework) In this case, I'd be the brain and administrate the resources. This will likely mean a significantly reduced "standard of living" for them.
3) People who are irresponsible and unkind. Well, sorry, screw them. Mentally they're children even if they're grown up in age. I know I can't count on them for anything serious. They shouldn't count on me. These words sound harsh and seem to exclude most people but actually I think this group is the largest. I'd probably revert to a tit-for-tat advice based form of help.
4) People who are responsible and unkind. Fortunately, they'd never need me. Which is good, because I'm not going to help them.

I should also point out that all these issues operate on a scale. Furthermore, that theory tends to break down when viewed upfront. But a person may be in category (3) when it comes to helping them out with some frivolous request but turn into a cat (2) for more serious matters.

Overall though, I don't think I owe anyone anything, but I do pay a lot of attention to people's behavior regardless of their means. If anyone is willing to take a hit for others, I'll take a hit for them. If anyone makes excuses when it comes to taking a hit, then I'll make excuses when it comes to taking a hit for them. If anyone has a track record of behaving stupidly. I'm not going to support stupidity.

TL;DR - This is a very complicated issue.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Yes, but you can't really pay somebody to be kind anymore than you can pay somebody to feel desire . Here's the reality of the moment that might be right in your face rather than out in theory land. Your widowed father whom you respect and love (this is the basis of your natural contract with him) can no longer make it to the bathroom under his own power. He weighs 190 lbs. and your kind, irresponsible sister with whom he lives weighs 120 lbs. You are damn lucky if all that you are called on for is some cash with which to hire a sturdy male aide to drop in twice a day. We do not live in a world where there are no children, elderly and infirm, illness, injury and/or disaster-not-of-their-own-making afflicted people. Therefore, there is actually more work for each functional adult to take on beyond just caring for him or herself. I think it would be a better world if each person personally did some direct care-giving work rather than throwing money at the problem, but ...WTF, some people think mountain peaks are more compelling of their life energy than dirty diapers. You aren't off the hook or getting your badge of functional mature adulthood from this blue-haired society matron unless you are kicking in 4 hours of community service each week in addition to paying all your own bills, but it's okay if you work on bringing back the squirrels to Western Europe rather than wiping poopy bottoms. I get that not everybody rolls that rugged.

Dragline
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Dragline »

Owe? As in legal obligation? No. Although there are still a few laws on the books in some states that are rarely or never enforced.

As in a moral or ethical obligation? Begs the question, because it depends then on your morals or ethics and the answer will be different for different people, unless you subscribe to the view that EVERYONE IS REQUIRED TO FOLLOW MY MORALS AND ETHICS BECAUSE THEY ARE THE CORRECT ONES.

Well, okay then. But then you can answer your own question.

My parents were good to me and I've helped them out within limits I consider reasonable, but only after satisfying all obligations to immediate family. Not because I feel like I "owe", but just because I think its a nice thing to do and I like being able to do it. And they're very grateful.

In my mind, it falls into the same category as charitable giving or voluntary donations. YMMV.

Ydobon
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Ydobon »

I should hope this issue goes beyond any kind of imposed natural contract, social contract, or financial tit-for-tat. All of these turn me off morally.
Quite. The levels of rationalisation going on in ERE land can be a real turn-off for regular squishy mortals with emotions and a non-robotic brain :P

I will assist my parents as required during retirement because I love them. They are kind, thoughtful people who did what they thought was best while raising me.

Using Jacob's model, my wife and I are lucky to have sets of parents falling into #1 and #2

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jennypenny
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by jennypenny »

Of course, they do! I changed their diapers, they change mine. That's what a good kid does!
(the fact that one of my kids reads the forum has no influence on my answer ;) )

Seriously, I suppose I don't "owe" it to anyone to take care of them, whether it's a parent, family member, neighbor, or anyone, really. I understand the negative reaction of most people on the forum because, let's face it, we're the ones who'll be doing more than our share in this regard. We're more likely to be the planners, the doers, the intellectually capable, and the financially stable in our extended families. We've been the ones to do everything for ourselves, often while watching other (adult) family members cling to the teat or receive parental bailouts as Sclass once put it. All of that means when it comes to assistance, we'll be the givers and not the takers. If you judge everything by what is "fair" then your ledger will always be red regarding your family.

I get how much that grates. It pisses me off too, which is pretty clear in the thread GandK linked to. That said, I'd rather live in a world where we each take care of what we can, regardless of whether it's fair. I don't feel I owe it to anyone to help them live a lifestyle that's beyond what is necessary, but I don't mind helping people who really can't make it work. As Tyler said, there are different ways of helping people. I approach this problem the same way I approach others, so I consider financial help to be the help of last resort (and recurring financial help is at the bottom of the list).

Personally, I feel like I can't complain about the state of things unless I'm doing my part to make sure I'm a net positive in the world. The best way I know of doing that is taking care of my little part of it, which includes my family, my local community, and the environment. And honestly, DH and I are introverts, so I find financial help to be the least taxing in many cases. It's surprising that many of you don't see financial handouts as the easier way to support people than, say, having them move in with you or visiting them regularly to care for them.



**I know every situation is different and there are exceptions. There are people in my family who will be SOL if they show up on my doorstep. Some people are toxic and it's best to cut that cord. I'm talking about normal situations.

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Ego
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Ego »

The world is changing fast. People are living longer and spending many of those extra years with complex, high-maintenance health problems that are beyond the ability of the family to manage. Countries where families continue to care for their elders in the traditional way are also places with poor healthcare systems where old people are functional until something goes wrong and then, poof, they die. They are also places where women get a raw deal.

I'd say we are two or three generations away from forgetting as a culture that the traditional way of caring for elders ever existed. Otherwise technology will exacerbate the problem to such an extent that every household will have a drooling, drugged lump of mothbally flesh hidden somewhere in the corner of the rumpus room, unable to distinguish it from a Romanian orphanage.

My parents and inlaws checked out early (literally or figuratively) so this is all theoretical for me. A few of our grandparents overstayed their welcome and became close approximations of said lumps. Wasn't pretty.

Ydobon
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Ydobon »

Overstayed their welcome
:lol:


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Sclass
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Sclass »

No.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Ego said: Countries where families continue to care for their elders in the traditional way are also places with poor healthcare systems where old people are functional until something goes wrong and then, poof, they die. They are also places where women get a raw deal.
Right. Third world countries are the only places where middle-aged females don't end up shouldering most of the practical responsibility for care of the young, sick, elderly or insane. I mean even if a married couple are both employed as corporate lawyers, tell me which one has to hire the nanny and vet the nursing home? Who gets the call to drive Grandma to her colonoscopy appointment, the early retired 29 year old grandson or the semi-retired 52 year old daughter? I am made so very grouchy by the notion that society does not benefit from unpaid work and some people are exempt from contributing. I do not think there should be a legal obligation, but I am damn well going to feel free to openly state whether or not I deem somebody's behavior admirable. Pish-posh on moral relativity.

IOW, my answer is that you have no obligation, but if you do not do it, you run the risk of contributing to the societal problem that will result in you likely becoming a wealthy, mean-spirited old man who will be last on the list of those deserving of behavior motivated by kindness and you will die from the side effects of extreme loneliness.

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Ego
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Ego »

7Wannabe5 wrote: Right. Third world countries are the only places where middle-aged females don't end up shouldering most of the practical responsibility for care of the young, sick, elderly or insane. I mean even if a married couple are both employed as corporate lawyers, tell me which one has to hire the nanny and vet the nursing home? Who gets the call to drive Grandma to her colonoscopy appointment, the early retired 29 year old grandson or the semi-retired 52 year old daughter? I am made so very grouchy by the notion that society does not benefit from unpaid work and some people are exempt from contributing. I do not think there should be a legal obligation, but I am damn well going to feel free to openly state whether or not I deem somebody's behavior admirable. Pish-posh on moral relativity.
It sounds like you are saying:

1. Women in the west get a raw deal because they allow themselves to become the unpaid caregiver of parents.
2. You are grouchy because others refuse to feed your holier-than-thou attitude and refuse to allow themselves to become the unpaid caregivers.

I saw this dynamic in my mother, the one sibling of a large brood who found herself in this place. After years of it she came to a sort of epiphany where she realized that up there on the cross is an inherently unhealthy place to reside. Sadly, the epiphany struck at the point where It was too late for her.

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Sclass
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Re: Does one owe it to their parents to take care of them in old age?

Post by Sclass »

I am really lucky my folks had enough funds to hire caregivers and pay their bills. I don't think I owe em. That is a term I reserve for creditors.

I take care of my mom because nobody else was and I cannot stand to see my dear mom fending for herself. It stopped working about five years ago and has gradually degraded.

I pay bills with her money. I manage her caregivers. I sometimes change a soiled depend and do some wiping up with baby wipes. Given how much I pay the help I usually demand that they change her.

Luckily my folks had enough money for this.

I don't support them. I just make sure they get what they pay for. I watch a bunch of webcams from my quad monitor. I stress when mom walks out the door for her "walk". I change a depend once a month when there is a poop during a shift change.

I'm kind of the sucker in my family. I got rich enough to retire. Older siblings still work so they get a pass. Dad descended on me like a fly on sh.t as soon as I gave notice. I now realize how I got manipulated into all this. TARP for my siblings was just a ruse to get my attention. In the big picture I've since received much more money from dad as I've done things his way.

Hard to make sense of this without explaining that dad is a polygamist. A wealthy one. My mom is one of his wives. This is really hard to type. I'm just a pawn supporting my dad's way of life. I hate that bastard but he's got me now. I took the money rather than trying to pay for her care myself. In some senses I'm no better than mom.

No. I don't owe my mom this. But it is easy enough under my circumstances to do it. Mom kind of deserves what she got. I just have to make sure she doesn't suffer too much in her last years.

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