PT

[Summer]

Perpetual Traveler or Prior Taxpayer or PT is a concept widely related to ERE. Yet, there aren't many discussions on it here. I would like to have one. Here is a starting point to people who don't know what it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_traveler

[enigmaT120]

It sounds like too much hassle to me. I avoid taxes by having a low income.

[Summer]

Well, enigmaT120, its not exactly all about taxes like you said. Its about freedom from government and the rest of nonsense that can come with it. Which may include low to no taxes based on your income and residency.

[Riggerjack]

If you want a more nuts and bolts breakdown, you can find it on John t reed's website.
There are visa complications, and the rules of each nation to consider.

If travel were something I drooled over as my ideal retirement, I would consider this. It's not, and the whole thing seems far more effort than it's worth. Though if you intend to move about alot, there could be some offsetting tax savings, I suppose...

[Ego]

Its about freedom from government and the rest of nonsense that can come with it.

Freedom from.....

How is your government intruding in your life? Honest question. Not facetious.

[Dragline]

Yeah, you're looking at the big T label -- as in troll, pretty soon here, Summer.

We see you ask a question, get a response or two and then make an angry retort. Yada, yada, yada. What's the point if you have already made up your mind? You may like to debate, but this ain't a debate club. Frankly, you are just rude so far. Hopefully, I am wrong about your intentions.

I don't think you have the resources to make this strategy make sense. Do you or don't you? Yes or No. Let's not waste our time unless you do.

[Summer]

Its about freedom from government and the rest of nonsense that can come with it.

Freedom from.....

How is your government intruding in your life? Honest question. Not facetious.

I just wanted to start a discussion on this as it is related to ERE so that I can gauge its viability. I do have some preconceived notions about it though like dragline rudely mentioned.

As for government intrusion, I think government itself is wrong in a libertarian sense.

[bryan]

I live a mobile lifestyle, mostly within the US, and take advantage of some state tax arbitrage by having my legal residence in SD. Honestly just this arbitrage is more hassle than it's worth (staying within the law, save a couple thousand per year I guess but comes with a few hassles e.g. some issues signing up for a new financial account). It could be more advantageous post ERE for capital gains or useful things like keeping your land/home safe from bankruptcy/lawsuit or getting cheaper tuition for your kids.

But yeah, sounds like a bit of work, especially if you are already a US citizen. But maybe worth looking into if you really do travel that much.

[Summer]

I would agree it would look like a lot of work to a American. But for someone who isn't, PT may seem like a good option compared to hell holes we live in. Its not about tax for most of us. I was looking for more of a discussion of intricacies of PT as it is related to ERE and not a discussion on conceptual disagreements.

[GandK]

I just wanted to start a discussion on this as it is related to ERE so that I can gauge its viability. I do have some preconceived notions about it though like dragline rudely mentioned.

Your posts read like you're young, so I'm going to answer this sincerely. If I believed you were 40, I'd punt.

1. Dragline is not being rude by questioning your intentions. He's a mod. And he's fulfilling that role, looking out for our community.
2. There is a big difference between seeking affirmation/praise and seeking other people's honest opinions and new ideas. Neither of these is wrong, but it's dishonest to be doing the former while pretending to do the latter. Expect people here to call you on it. And you're also not being open if you're concealing your opinion in your initial post and then using it as a weapon later on to attack the "stupidity" of people who think differently from you. A better approach would be to mention your preconceived notions on the subject in your OP. This would benefit both you and everyone else, as people could tailor their answers to your existing mindset.
3. Part of the culture of this community is constructive criticism. We're trying to help one another improve here. Voicing your own anger is okay, but it is neither helpful nor respectful to make comments that are likely to make other people angry.

For the record: no one here is picking on you. But it is always possible to say what you think in a way that is respectful of others, even when you completely disagree with them. Please change your approach a little. You're coming off as... abrasive.

[bottlerocks]

PT comes across as petty to me, at least if it's done from the viewpoint of avoiding societal obligations. It's like people who want to complain/avoid systems but never contribute to making them better. If the benefits happen to coincide with someone's desire to travel constantly then it makes sense in context of ERE but that's a fairly narrow channel.

Seconding the abrasive sentiment. There are several people who start a lot of conversations on this forum but most of them are very receptive to constructive feedback and at the very least respectful. It's a large reason why I like coming here.

[Dave]

I just wanted to start a discussion on this as it is related to ERE so that I can gauge its viability. I do have some preconceived notions about it though like dragline rudely mentioned.

As for government intrusion, I think government itself is wrong in a libertarian sense.

From the financial perspective, I have a hard time seeing PT as being worthwhile unless you have significant assets/income.

From the perspective of your view that government itself is wrong in a libertarian sense (this is a pretty broad statement, you may consider refining/qualifying that), I could see it being worth moving to a "less-governed" country, yet I am confused because you then make the statement "I would agree it would look like a lot of work to an American. But for someone who isn't, PT may seem like a good option compared to the hell holes we live in..." These two statements seem somewhat in opposition with each other, unless I am missing something. It seems that if you are living in a "hell hole" then you would prefer somewhere like the US, even with the increased regulation/government involvement.

Overall though, the juice ain't worth the squeeze for most people.

[The Old Man]

The Perpetual Traveler concept is a very interesting. I first became aware of it in the early nineties through the now defunct publishing house of Scope International. It really changed my thinking because I had never thought in those terms before. It is also really interesting how such a niche concept has now become widely known.

However, the connection between PT and ERE is nominal at best. In the PT books by W. G. Hill he talks about the advantages of a minimalist lifestyle and how a high consumption lifestyle is not as rewarding as one may think, but that is the extent of the connection between PT and ERE. He offers no solutions.

The PT concept is about breaking free of nationalist thinking and thinking more along the lines of a world citizen. The PT person treats countries as hotels – they each have their benefits and disadvantages – and choose each country appropriate for its purpose. For an internationally aware person one country will likely not be the best choice for all purposes. I think this is the essential message of PT.

It is difficult to find an objective discussion about PT because its proponents generally have something to sell. I have not implemented PT, so my thoughts are just theoretical.

Tax avoidance is real and Americans can benefit through the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. Due to territorial taxation and no/low tax jurisdictions it is not necessary to be constantly travelling. Constant traveling is only necessary if the person persists in spending time in high tax jurisdictions.

Multiple passports expand opportunities and can literally be a lifesaver. I know a person who is currently a refugee in Jordan (passport from Iraq) who despite a university education has poor prospects. One of my coworkers was born in China. With the defeat of the Nationalists his family, a 'formerly' prosperous merchant who survived the Japanese occupation, relocated to Taiwan and he eventually came to America. Another coworker immigrated to America with the loss of the Vietnam War. At the time of defeat he was in France attending school; his family was highly placed in the South Vietnam government. Another person I know immigrated to America with the end of the Cold War; her family was highly placed in the former communist government of Romania. Your circumstances may be stable now, but what about the future?

PT proponents say you can minimize/eliminate government intrusion in your life. I don’t see how this is possible because wherever you go there will be government. You have simply changed from the shackles of one government to the shackles of multiple governments – perhaps these shackles are more to your liking?

The primary disadvantage of PT is that it complicates your life through the involvement of multiple government entities. There will likely be unintended consequences that arise because you are not living a conventional lifestyle.

In summary, I believe the PT concept to be worthwhile and worth exploring, but only pursue it if it serves some tangible purpose beyond a theoretical idea.

[JamesR]

Summer,

I'm a fan of the 3-flag concept - one country for citizenship, one country for residence, and one country for income.

In practice, it's not that easy. Americans can't even do it. As a Canadian, I could do it, but I would have to jump some hoops to establish a residency elsewhere.

It's kind of a pain to establish residency, it's easier to just stay on tourist visas and just travel around - but then I don't meet the legal requirements of the residency thing.

I'm sure people can sorta just ignore some of the legalities, and get away with it, since it's hard to enforce things. Unless you're american - then you're just fucked. Pretty much all banks in the world report to the IRS now.