parents with "normal" salaries...doing ERE? Blogs?

[pangburnfam]

Okay. I realize there is a whole "Kids on ERE" thread. I opened it. I have kids - and if you have kids - you'll understand I have no time to read through 5+ pages trying to look for the one post that's relevant for me

My husband and Ireally desire early retirement. We can be extreme. Hell, I just went on a "Can Walk" with my 4 year old (something he actually looooves to do) and ended up scoring 1 1/2 huge trash bags full of cans (we live right next to a high school and they had some football thing going on last night), 3 bags unopened granola and a couple pints of blackberries (we picked the berries). I realize that most of the above might gross a lot of people out..but we actually enjoy doing these things (yes, we are odd). Just noting that we are willing to be "extreme" (I'm sure all of the above might seem mild to some, disgusting to others) in order to reach our goals - as long as it's workable for US.

Anyway, is there anyone on here that HAS kids *AND* a normal salary? I keep seeing people with "normal" salaries of $75,000/year...plus their spouse brings home another $40,000/year. I keep thinking if that was our life, we'd retire in a year!

Our situation: debt free, 2 kids (4 & 9), homeschool (for free mostly, using online resources/library), I am a homemaker (30) and my husband (31) makes just over $40k/year (no longer on salary - thank god). We aren't technically "low income", so we pay for everything ourselves - meaning, I don't get food stamps like 1/2 of my city seems to. Our housing costs (including all utilities) are $705/mo, which is cheap for our area and is in walking distance of everything - except DH's work - which is only 3.5 miles away though, so I suppose it technically IS walking distance.

We do very little that costs money and isn't a true need. We try to find fun *and* free things to do with the kiddos, which is very possible in our city.

Still...it would be nice to find like-minded people.

And is ERE even possible in this scenario? There is NO WAY we can save 40%-75% of our income. We currently save about 20-25% of each paycheck (take home), plus 5% in our ROTH 401k (because that is what the company matches, and I like free money).

Is there hope for us? Just keep "truckin"?

Thanks for reading my rambles! I guess I'm just curious if anyone on here is in the same(ish) situation as us (maybe sans dumpster divin, haha!)? And if so...do you have a blog? I'd love an "extreme" blog. I am pretty bored with the same ol', same ol' "frugal mommy bloggers". I've been frugal for a decade and a half now, I've read the tightwad gazette and every other frugal book I can get my hands on and am sick of reading the same tips & tricks over and over.

Seriously. I'm done rambling now! If you made it through...thanks for listening!

Desiree

[lilacorchid]

Did you read all of Jacob's blog? Have you checked out his book? He did it on what you call a normal salary, and it looks like your housing costs are in line with what he talked about.

And since you are talking "extreme", why not send the kids to school and get a part time job? Extreme is in the eye of the beholder.

BTW, I would not crap on saving 25% of your family's income when there is only one person bringing something home. Some people can't even manage that with TWO earners.

[jacob]

It's better to see ERE as a strategy than a date on a timeline. The ERE strategy does not focus on frugality in the traditional cost-cutting sense (which tends to be small potatoes in the overall scheme of things) but is more of a design approach. I don't see why it would not be possible for your family to get above a 50% savings rate. You spend $30,000/year which is kinda in the upper range for four people living in the same place. Showing a budget might help to see where the bottlenecks are.

The strategy as opposed to the timeline is laid out here
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wiki/ ... _is_ERE%3F

It's described in the book in much more detail. You can also get an impression about it from the blog. Although I didn't write many strategy/design posts for the blog (saving it for the book which I was writing concurrently) you can at least get an impression of one guy's implementation of the strategy.

As mentioned, your housing costs look good. What are the other big expenses? Car? Health insurance? Food? Stuff?

[KevinW]

I don't see why it would not be possible for your family to get above a 50% savings rate...Showing a budget might help to see where the bottle necks.

Yeah I also think it can be done, possibly with some strategic fine tuning and completely embracing extremeness. We can give suggestions if you give a more detailed breakdown of expenses.

From what you said you may be able to do more home production and integrate that with the home schooling. E.g. make yogurt every week and work in lessons on mitosis, the germ theory, proteins and enzymes. Etc.

[pangburnfam]

Thanks for the replies.

I will post my budget, but first I want to fine tune it the best I can. Dh and I had already planned to go over it this weekend (seriously! I'm not making this up!)- I have a few ideas to lower some categories, so let me fix those up and then you all can have a go at it!

I think we are pretty good in most budget areas (we spend $75/week on groceries - I cook everything from scratch, $30/week toiletries/misc - which is everything, really. Medicine, TP, haircut for DH who now wants to try to cut his own, diapers for my 4 year old who REFUSES to pee in the potty like a real man LOL, and the like. I would like to lower this area, actually, but yeah. The 4 year old. It's pretty frustrating.).

Car. I'm fairly certain our downfall is our car, looking at our budget. Between gas & insurance (and repairs), we spend $200/mo for our "cool" paid for '93 wagon ($30/week gas). We drive very little - mostly just Dh's 3.4 mile commute to work and bi-weekly BIG grocery trips. We have no car share in our town, and the bus system is good, but not good enough. It starts running at the same time DH is due to be at work. Our city is very bike friendly, but he isn't a biker. He might be willing to give it a shot though, at least during the nicer months. We shall see.

I know I could always be more extreme. I'm not trying to claim the "most extreme" title by any means, although I'm sure my parents would think I deserve it. They pretty much think we're friggin' nuts. lol!


Oh - I wanted to add that we have been looking for a different place to live, in walking distance of Dh's work, which could cut down on car expenses. However, it's not in the safest area at all, and the nicer places that our in our budget don't include water/sewer/garbage like our current rental, which is easily going to be $150-200/mo, therefore making any possible car savings a moot point. I'm still looking nearly daily on craigslist, though. You never know....

[vireoes]

We don't blog and I don't keep a journal on the site, but I can definitely tell you that it is doable. We are in a pretty similar boat, 2 young kids, DH works on a moderate salary, I stay home with the kids. We do save 50% of income or more most months and should be FI as a family in just a few more years. We don't live in the cheapest place, but we have search around to find ways to make our location affordable. We do have good public transport so are car free. Definitely post your numbers so you can gets some outside feedback on where to cut. We could definitely cut much more from our budget and be FI faster, but DH is happy with his work for now and wants to continue on so we allow a few luxuries (some organic produce, travel, etc.) into our budget that we could easily cut out.

[pete]

the cost of disposable diapers adds up quickly. Getting a pack of washable diapers for part of the day may be a lot cheaper. Instead of your husband cutting his hair, he may get better results if youcut it for him. The library should be able to get you books on family haircutting.
Public school until middle school age may allow you a pt-time job so you can invest in some low expense mutual funds -- both taxable and for an IRA
Does your apartment have a balcony? A homemade gro-box growing tomatoes is usually a money saver.

[pangburnfam]

Alright! We brainstormed and revamped the budget. It's not "perfect" since certain areas we aren't quite sure how much we NEED (like toiletries/misc) - so we plan on tracking our expenses for the next few months so we can nix this catch all category and be more specific...and hopefully less money will get blown. I dunno. I just like to know where my money is going.

Note - We are not willing to enroll our kids in public school again. We pulled them (well, my 9yo) out for a reason. It's not worth the costs. And fyi - public school is NOT free. Not in our area, anyway.

ETA: We get paid bi-weekly and our annual take-home is approx. $28, 548 ($1,098/bi weekly). We budget 2 paychecks a month, though, and the other 2 paychecks we count as "bonus" checks and save most of the check, except grocery, gas and toiletries $). We are currently able to save
$8,474.76/year.

MONTHLY BUDGET:

620 - rent (includes w/s/g)
85 - electric (fixed monthly, goes up annually no matter what I do. And anything that CAN be done to lower our monthly bill, IS being done. We know all the "frugal" tips here).
15.94 - computer/phone bill (ooma for phone. I call and lower our bill annually for 'net)
61.83 - car & renters insurance. (We don't need renters, but if we take it off the bill goes up. Dumb, yes.)
17.94 - life insurance, 20 year term
20.56 - life insurance, 20 year term
50 - Tracfone for DH*
50 - medical savings (this is for copays, deductibles, and the like. We have insurance, which is apparently "good", yet we are always getting a bill...)
120 - auto gas*
300 - food
120 - toiletries/misc (this is the catch-all. Everything from TP to batteries to phone minutes for me)
16.50 - homeschool allowance ($200/year)
62.50 - fun money*
10 - car savings (oil changes)
30 - clothing/shoes (we almost exclusively shop at thrift stores. exception being undergarments!)
50 - gift fund*

Notes:
Tracfone - We are going to buy a $200 card, which will last 5-6 months. So this amount will likely go down. We have yet to actually purchase "bulk" minutes this way, though, so I'm not sure what the final cost will be.

Gas for the car - DH is getting a bike. Today, actually. We plan to spend less than we spend for a months of gas on this...and if he likes the bike, he'll do it. If not, he's committed to riding for Sept. to at least make up for the cost, then we'll sell it. We're hoping it's doable. We wouldn't ever get rid of our car completely - but this oughta lower the cost significantly.

Fun money - we used spend around $1,300/year (or more, if we're honest). We just lowered this to $750. It's likely that much of these activities will cost less than we budgeted. If that is the case, the remainder will go into the savings. Here is the breakdown:

3 shows (musicals/concerts) per year - $300 (unlikely it'll cost this much, but we're being safe)
anniversary date - $50
kids activities (beach trip, zoo/aquarium trip, movies x3, local science museum) - $260
dinners out x 2- $60
treats out x4 - $80

Gift fund: we just lowered this as well.

Kids get: $50 for b-day, $50 for xmas
We get: $100 for b-day, $100 for xmas

Why do we get more? Because we don't have gobs of relatives who spoil us, that's why . We decided we are okay with this. Also, I spend my entire $200/year gift budget on my clothing/shoes/accessories. So...it's technically my clothing budget. The $30/mo is mainly spent on the kids who never stop growing.


Other things:
certain things get put into savings (like "gift fund") and aren't spent right away. We just like to make sure we have the money for them.

homeschool - i don't think i need $200/year. I want to try for $100...but this is including printer ink, which isn't cheap. or long lasting.

FOOD - Again. I know and/or do all the frugal tips. We eat very little meat. I cook everything from scratch (exception: pasta!). I mostly buy fresh, seasonal produce and beans/grains from the bulk bins. No organic. We pick wild fruit. I only use coupons for things I am already going to buy.

DIAPERS - I am working on it! We do have cloth pull ups and we're giving it another shot as of today. I'm not opposed to cloth. I used cloth when both kids were younger, and we still use cloth wipes.



Alright! So, as you can see...we lowered some things this weekend and are working on others right now (car vs. bike - lowering phone minutes cost, etc).

What do you think?

And...thanks for the help! We have NO friends in real life who are more frugal than we are, so it's nice to have people online who will be honest with us!

[George the original one]

> 17.94 - life insurance, 20 year term
> 20.56 - life insurance, 20 year term

It's a small item, but why do you have life insurance on both of you if only one of you is providing income?

[George the original one]

56% of your budget is rent & food. Your next largest categories are fuel for the car and toiletries/misc, which, together, account for another 14%.

So, in order to substantially increase your savings rate, you either have to attack the rent & food or increase the income.

[pete]

I think saving $8k a year is great.
Is your $50 a month saving for medical a 'medical savings account' (msa) and therefore pretax dollars?
Are you able to reload/refill your printer cartridges yourself? This can bring the cost way down.
In the winter, I place fabric covered Celotex in most of the north facing windows; it seems to help
In the olden days -- 1950s & 60s -- when Daddy came home from work, Mommy left for her part-time job as a supermarket cashier.

[jacob]

Your misc seems high? Are these all consumables?

For nonconsumables, it's possible to buy used/sell used and come out net close to $0 or even positive by get broken free/fix/sell. I presume you already do that?

Have you tried a kill-a-watt on appliances? Electricity rates vary so you may be at the floor already, but we've never once hit $85/month. Using the kill-a-watt it turned out our fridge was the big culprit.

WRT food, do you have room for a squarefoot garden?

For phones, maybe consider
http://www.republicwireless.com/ (smartphone)
https://www.pagepluscellular.com/plans/ (dumbphone, I use the $10 plan ... it costs me $40/year to have a cellphone)

[pangburnfam]

George the original one: We both have policies because if one of us dies, we want to be there for the kids. Sure, if I die, my husband wont lose any income - but he'll have to farm the kids out to other people. This doesn't fit in with our parenting style at all. We would want things to stay as "normal" as possible.

Thanks for the percentages. I never bothered to figure that out and it is definitely eye opening. A cheaper rent is virtually impossible in this area. It would either move us too far away from work/stores and/or move us near drug dealers/partiers. We scored to find rent this low in our city. I'd LOVE to live in a one bedroom, which WOULD save us money, but apparently it's illegal to have more than 3 people in a 1 bedroom - unless one of the people is under 1 years old. So we have very slim options in this regard.

I'm going to try to shave $100/mo off groceries (WIC for the next year, plus $50/month from my ex for my daughter should make that fairly easy.

Increasing income: I am planning to begin donating plasma (as I mentioned previously) next week, and the goal is to bring in at least $100/mo.

Pete - Thanks Gah. I don't know why I didn't think of MSA! We do have that option available through DH's company - but not until next year. I will be sure to sign up when we have to fill out the paperwork in November.

And nope. My stupid kodak AIO wont let me refill crap. I HATE this printer with a passion. If one color is gone, I must refill them all. I'd love to buy a more efficient printer with a refillable ink option, I'm just not sure which printer is best.

Jacob - The misc. isn't all consumables, but mostly. We use cloth everything with the exception of (some) TP and diapers. This is batteries, bandaids, minutes, moisturizer, OTC meds - like kids vitamins, aspirin, etc. It's anything that isn't categorized...which is a LOT. So, that is why we are tracking this area for the next few months...because we really have NO idea what this category includes, which makes it hard to trim it just yet. But that's the idea!

Compared to other people who live in the area, that we know, our electric is ridiculously low. We feel guilty even complaining. But it was only $70 last year, so for me it's frustrating. The electric rates increased for everyone this year, though. Not just us. The only things that stay plugged in all the times are the stove (old), fridge (brand new as of last year), dishwasher (old).

Since I cook everything from scratch, I *do* cook a lot. Which means I do dishes a lot as well. Running anywhere from 1-2 full loads a day. Do you think it would be worth the savings to hand wash the dishes?

I've tried gardening on our balcony with poor results. I still have 3 blueberry bushes and a nearly dead mint plant, though. I don't think DH is looking forward to lugging any more bags of soil up the stairs, though.

As far as phones go, ours is prepaid but we are still finding ways to make it cheaper. We are a dumbphones only family though. On the pageplus site I am only seeing 2 phone options available?

[pangburnfam]

Oh - I forgot to mention that Dh's medical benefits plan options are coming up again. We can choose a different plan every year. We currently pay around $200 per check for our current insurance. We are going to choose the cheaper option, as we *rarely* go to the doctors. This should bring it down to about $100/check - which *should* increase our income a bit as well.

[jacob]

Dishes. Could be. You are heating a lot of water with electricity compared to getting w and h for free. You could try hand washing for a month to see if it makes a difference. When I grew up I was on towel duty from age 5 to 19. (My dad did the dishes, my mom cooked, and my sister cleared the table.)

For gardening, try radishes first. If you can't grow that, it's hopeless (My first gardening failure was the failure to grow radishes). I used self-watering containers to good effect
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/conta ... -pots.html
I presume your balcony gets at least some sunlight. If not, it's also hopeless. Otherwise gardening is not so hard although it's not as simple as buying a seedling and throwing water on it. The biggest limitation on out-of-the-ground is the size of the root system. I'd expect a blueberry bush to require at least a foot of soil. You can't grow much in shallow containers. Next is the nutrient limitations of out-of-soil growing, but that's easy to deal with. The plant will show some deficiency.. e.g. yellow leaves. That means a specific mineral is missing. Just add that and you're good again. If you can do worm-composting that helps a lot. You can get red wigglers for free and keep them in an apartment. (They're very quiet pets and they smell less than a cat/dog )

[pangburnfam]

Well, we just went out and bought (yes, I know that sounds counter productive to saving money!) a clearanced bike, helmet, lights (riding before 6am!) and lock. Oh - and a dishpan for the cost of September's gas budget. We also pretty much have a full tank of gas right now from last time we filled up, so the bike will have paid for itself by the end of the month. I'm excited. Not so much for the dishpan hands, though.

[KevinW]

Well, we just went out and bought (yes, I know that sounds counter productive to saving money!) a clearanced bike, helmet, lights (riding before 6am!) and lock. Oh - and a dishpan for the cost of September's gas budget. We also pretty much have a full tank of gas right now from last time we filled up, so the bike will have paid for itself by the end of the month. I'm excited. Not so much for the dishpan hands, though.

I like that you guys are open minded about biking and are taking action so fast. But in the spirit of expectations control, I'd like to caution that bikes in that price range can sometimes be exasperating. Missed shifts, need frequent deraileur adjustment, soft metal is difficult to repair without bending things or stripping threads, etc. Anyway if your husband gets frustrated due to those kinds of issues you should blame the model of bike and not the institution of bicycling.

So, in order to substantially increase your savings rate, you either have to attack the rent & food or increase the income.

In the past I've thought that being an onsite landlord or apartment superintendent would be a good project for a stay at home parent. Both pursuits require you to be onsite most of the time, and fielding requests and doing light maintenance can be good learning moments for kids, so there is synergy there. If you're in a position to own property you could buy something like a 3-plex or 4-plex house, live in one unit, rent the rest, and turn a net profit on the whole thing. If not you could look into getting hired as an apartment super ( http://www.wikihow.com/Become-an-Apartm ... rintendent ). Usually you get free rent and maybe a small stipend.

George the original one: We both have policies because if one of us dies, we want to be there for the kids. Sure, if I die, my husband wont lose any income - but he'll have to farm the kids out to other people. This doesn't fit in with our parenting style at all. We would want things to stay as "normal" as possible.

Remember that once you accumulate a certain level of assets this will become unnecessary. E.g. in princple when you hit 50% FI then you can drop one of the policies since your assets should be able to provide for 1/2 the family's needs.

And nope. My stupid kodak AIO wont let me refill crap. I HATE this printer with a passion. If one color is gone, I must refill them all. I'd love to buy a more efficient printer with a refillable ink option, I'm just not sure which printer is best.

What are you printing? I print almost nothing at home, and a lot of people live paperless at this point. Can this be cut entirely?

...This is batteries, bandaids, minutes, moisturizer, OTC meds - like kids vitamins, aspirin, etc.

I know you just threw those out, but some of that can be economized. IIRC the only things I own that consume batteries are legally-mandated smoke detectors. You can buy corded versions of nearly everything. Olive oil is a great moisturizer, and many other toiletries can be made DIY. We use email the way most people use texts, and reserve texts and calls for emergencies, so I can make the $99 TracFone 365 day card last a year. You may be able to make a lot of progress in this category.

Since I cook everything from scratch, I *do* cook a lot. Which means I do dishes a lot as well. Running anywhere from 1-2 full loads a day. Do you think it would be worth the savings to hand wash the dishes?

Again at the risk of reading too much into one offhand remark, the 1-2 loads/day figure makes me think that it might be possible to streamline your cooking. FWIW I only generate that many dishes on a Sunday when I cook a week's worth of batch breakfasts, lunches, and home cook all 3 meals that day. Do you cook each meal individually, or in batches? Do you reuse utensils and measuring tools and rinse things as you go? Do you stock a pantry as described here: http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wiki/ ... _and_sales ?

I suspect you can prepare food more efficiently which would save a little money and more time, which will free time and energy for other projects.

[thxr234]

Wow very impressive cuts.

I would not consider at all, in any way shape or form putting your kids in school to get a part time job to retire sooner so that you can then...spend more time with your kids. Balancing life choices, money, and financial independence is an optimization problem with your preferences which is, reading through the site, different for everyone. Changing an important preference like that seems counter to your family goals unless ERE is the number one family goal. In my family retirement might be like the 10th goal so we optimize very differently.

What we did to make money in tight times was have my wife, who is a nurse, work weekends or when she did not want to do that she provided in home day care. That is pretty hard work for the pay, but doable and can bring in an extra $100-300 a month and helped us through some tight times. I have also donated plasma - but of the options I would explore if things were tight in my life again (they will not be because of my impending employment) that would be my very last. I just did not like it. But I did it for six months and it paid ok where I lived at the time.

[pangburnfam]

Thanks everyone for the input!

I guess I should make this very clear - we want to retire early, but NOT at the expense of losing time with eachother. We believe life is very short - thus the desire to retire early. At the same time, that makes us not willing to jeopordize the time we currently have together. This may seem to some like we don't really want to retire early, but I assure you, we do. We will not, however, put our kids in school in order to make this happen OR lose time together (such as, I work when DH doesn't). I guess you could say that we have more than one dream.

I am willing to donate plasma to earn $100-200/mo (depending on if I can go once or twice a week) because DH works there - so this would only end up being a few hours apart, which would also give the kids some one on one time with DH (and me time to read and relax as much as one can with a needle jammed into ones arm )


I definitely don't feel like we're maxed out on our frugalness...not yet! Although, that *is* the goal. Which is why I posted the budget . If we ever do max out on our frugalness, I will be satisfied! I guess I am feeling frustrated because I didn't feel like we are doing enough. We kept talking, and yes, saving, but we have big goals and could've been doing more. I feel much better waking up today knowing that our car is still parked in its spot. That should help us make a nice dent!

KevinW - yes, we bought a cheap bike for sure! I'm hoping it'll be fine, but we'll keep what you said in mind. We tried to find a bike to borrow, but no one wants to share! We didn't want to lose out on giving it a go in what is possibly Oregon's last nice month - so we just went for it. If I had to wait a handful of months to see if biking was a possibility, I'd go crazy!

Neither of us have any real skills in repairing things, which is what I would need in order to manage a complex. I also haven't seen a lot of ads for this type of job in our city, and I have looked. It is a goal of mine to learn carpentry and general repairing skills, however. My dad builds houses for a living and I've always thought that was freaking awesome.

I agree on dropping the policies once we have hit some level of FI. I just hope that happens before the policies expire! lol

Printing - we mostly print homeschool stuff, but I will admit that coupons were probably a large part of the problem. Now that I am couponing MUCH less (I got sick of trying to get deals, only to realize everyone got there first!) I expect the ink will last three times as long. So maybe it wont be such a problem after all?

[pete]

While the upfront costs will be higher, going to rechargeable batteries for the most used will save.
On washing dishes by hand -- that will depend on whether you let the water keep running or not. Easiest is to let the dishes soak for a while. Helps to have a two compartment sink -- one for hot, sudsy water, one for the rinse water. For baked on grease, fill the dish with water, add a couple spoons of arm & hammer, and let soak overnight
dishwasher -- end the cycle before it goes to the heat/drying phase. Open the door and let them air dry
computer printer -- get a cheap/free one by going to freecycle, craigslist, charity thrift, or just spreadthe word around. The Kodak printer was good for photos, but, as you found, too expensive for school worksheets
Most of my stuff with phantom loads (microwave, TV-especially, radio, dvd player, computer, etc) is plugged into its own multi-strip. That way it really is off when I switch it off. Even when I had an apartment, I wired in a timer to the apartment's hot water heater (each apt. had its own water heater)
On giving plasma -- if you want to stay healthy, you should only do this once a month. Are you thinking of donating platelets instead?
You guys (both) are missing a big bet by not learning carpentry skills, right now, from your Father. Of all the suggestions in this thread, this one will do the most for getting the family ahead. Make it a weekly family gathering, or even most every evening. The first week/month may just be step-and-fetch-it, but you will start picking up the lingo
You've got to be the only person I ever heard of that could kill off mint.
On instructables.com you will find several instruction threads for building a gro-box out of two Rubbermaid type totes. I recommend buying some cherry/grape tomato starter plants and growing them in the boxes