Hey guys,
This is the best place for advice that I can think of, so I'm hoping for a little help.
As some of you know I blog about trying to retire before 40 years old, and so far everything is going very well. I'm on pace to become financially independent by my 38th birthday and I couldn't ask for more success in that regard.
However, I'm extremely unhappy in my career. I work for an automotive dealership in the service department, and it's generally very unrewarding work. Most clients who come in to see me are not happy to see me, and we often get customers that are coming back with repeat concerns (check engine lights, noises that never went away, etc.). It's way too many hours (7:15-6:00 M-F and 8-1 every third Sat) and I find no passion in it at all. The work/life balance is way out of whack and so I suppose a lot of the motivation behind my journey toward financial independence is because of my distaste for what I do.
I've been considering lately switching careers. I'm considering getting a certification to become a personal trainer. I've always had a passion for physical fitness and I think that enthusiasm would translate well if I did it for a living (at least I hope so). The issue is that I am quite confident after some fairly extensive research that this move would entail a severe pay cut.
I now make about $55k a year gross. I anticipate that being cut in about half or possibly more, at least at first. Certainly a personal trainer can make good money if they become independent with a solid clientele base, but the going would be tough at first. I'm not concerned about paying my bills, as my overhead is very low right now. I would only need to make around $1,200/mo to make this idea work (anticipating using my dividends for current income rather than reinvestment), and I don't think that will be particularly difficult.
The issue will be that the journey to ERE will be severely interrupted, perhaps permanently. I would not be able to come even close to retiring by 40 with this move, and would likely be lucky to be completely financially independent by 50.
The question becomes should I continue to work in an unsatisfying position knowing that I could be completely free in less than 8 years, or go for something I may enjoy quite a bit more while forgoing early retirement?
It's something I've been secretly wrestling with for about a month. I've been internalizing the thoughts, but I thought I would get some outside opinions. I anticipate many saying I should go for what I find passion in, no matter the pay, but I am quite looking forward to complete freedom to spend a few months a year in Michigan with family, traveling, volunteering time as a philanthropist and continuing my writing.
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!
Considering Career Change
DM,
First of all, I think it’s awesome that your dividend income, though modest right now, is part of the conversation in terms of providing some level of support. That’s incredibly empowering!
I’m not sure if your FI horizon would get completely pushed back if you make this move. Yes, initially you would take a hit, but the question then is: how long will it take you to get your new income stream to a level that is comparable to $55K/year? If you can get your personal training business to the same level as your current job in, say, a year, then I think it would definitely be something worth pursuing. But if it takes you many years to get the new income stream to the $55K/year ballpark then I think you will have a real dilemma on your hands.
I guess you could view the PT route as semi-ERE. Maybe this new path will bring better equilibrium in your life, to the point where waiting until you are 50 to reach full FI is not a big sacrifice or trade-off.
If you were to leave your job, do you think they would take you back if you happen to change your mind?
Another thing: if you gotta leave, you gotta leave. I have a friend that was literally getting sick because of her job and decided to take a huge pay cut in order to work somewhere that was less soul-crushing.
First of all, I think it’s awesome that your dividend income, though modest right now, is part of the conversation in terms of providing some level of support. That’s incredibly empowering!
I’m not sure if your FI horizon would get completely pushed back if you make this move. Yes, initially you would take a hit, but the question then is: how long will it take you to get your new income stream to a level that is comparable to $55K/year? If you can get your personal training business to the same level as your current job in, say, a year, then I think it would definitely be something worth pursuing. But if it takes you many years to get the new income stream to the $55K/year ballpark then I think you will have a real dilemma on your hands.
I guess you could view the PT route as semi-ERE. Maybe this new path will bring better equilibrium in your life, to the point where waiting until you are 50 to reach full FI is not a big sacrifice or trade-off.
If you were to leave your job, do you think they would take you back if you happen to change your mind?
Another thing: if you gotta leave, you gotta leave. I have a friend that was literally getting sick because of her job and decided to take a huge pay cut in order to work somewhere that was less soul-crushing.
I faced a similar choice when I was still working, and I chose to stay at the high-paying job that I didn't like. I just really wanted to be independent.
On a positive note, I was extremely motivated to cut my expenses and reach FI sooner. When I was eventually laid-off, I was close enough to FI that I was able to find a fun job to make up the difference.
On a positive note, I was extremely motivated to cut my expenses and reach FI sooner. When I was eventually laid-off, I was close enough to FI that I was able to find a fun job to make up the difference.
In my job life I have three times a set-back accepted in the financial sense of the word. By free choice of my own. Because I felt it was better to accept less income instead of a boring/unsatisfying time in my life. I did it the the first two times the way Bigato describes above: during my job I found another one with more intrinsic perspective and than I changed. Only the third time I plunged in deep water by ending my job and starting to work as one-person entrepreneur.
I have never regretted the financial set backs, in retro it worked out as a financial leap forward after some years. But even without that, it was rewarding because doing work has more aspects than only financial.
Nevertheless it is a difficult decision, you are the one who has to take it.
I have never regretted the financial set backs, in retro it worked out as a financial leap forward after some years. But even without that, it was rewarding because doing work has more aspects than only financial.
Nevertheless it is a difficult decision, you are the one who has to take it.
Only you can decide. Look before you leap, etc. I've switched jobs several times in the last several years to have greater flexibility in going to school (I work full time during the day and go to school full time in the evenings). Keep your eyes on your goals and it'll guide you. I'm currently teaching preschool at a place with a ridiculously corporate probation period (you can be fired for missing any day of work in your first six months, essentially). I'm planning on substitute teaching next semester if I don't make it through my probationary period this semester. It'll be lower pay but I won't have to deal with a fear of losing my job because I need to leave a bit early for class now and then. I'm going to school, naturally, to land me in my desired career (kindergarten teaching).
There are low barriers to becoming a personal trainer so you'll have lots of competition. Take a look at groupon.
-Where will you train clients, at a gym or your own studio?
-What differentiates you from other personal trainers?
-Do you have a new training method in mind that will attract people to your business? Here is the new hot thing in SoCal...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7TalnV6b1g
-Where will you train clients, at a gym or your own studio?
-What differentiates you from other personal trainers?
-Do you have a new training method in mind that will attract people to your business? Here is the new hot thing in SoCal...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7TalnV6b1g
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LiquidSapphire
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My two cents is that 8 years is way too damn long. I'd plan a change over the next year. I'd consider the following:
If all you earned was your monthly expenses, how long would it take for the gains of your portfolio, by themselves, to make you FI?
What else could you do besides the personal training? If in the beginning you spent 20 hrs a week building your biz and 30 hrs doing something else that didn't kill you inside I'd call that a net win. What else could you do to bring in say $2000/mo net? The goal would be something like $20 an hour. Learn that Latex software Jacob did copy writing in? Medical transcription? Gigs on CL? Reselling garage sales on eBay? Tax prep?
I'm bringing in slightly more than my expenses each month. It's not something I'm wildly passionate about but I'm still amazed week to week about how much better it is because I don't Hate it from the very core of my being.
If all you earned was your monthly expenses, how long would it take for the gains of your portfolio, by themselves, to make you FI?
What else could you do besides the personal training? If in the beginning you spent 20 hrs a week building your biz and 30 hrs doing something else that didn't kill you inside I'd call that a net win. What else could you do to bring in say $2000/mo net? The goal would be something like $20 an hour. Learn that Latex software Jacob did copy writing in? Medical transcription? Gigs on CL? Reselling garage sales on eBay? Tax prep?
I'm bringing in slightly more than my expenses each month. It's not something I'm wildly passionate about but I'm still amazed week to week about how much better it is because I don't Hate it from the very core of my being.
Hey DG,
Would a similar job at another brand dealership freshen things up enough to get you to retirement date?
I have watched one of my friend's wife work as a personal trainer for years. She is really trying. She has branched out and done everything from spinning to touch therapy. She has never been able to make any regular, good money.
Would a similar job at another brand dealership freshen things up enough to get you to retirement date?
I have watched one of my friend's wife work as a personal trainer for years. She is really trying. She has branched out and done everything from spinning to touch therapy. She has never been able to make any regular, good money.
DG- This is something I wondered about when seeing your profiles in the MSM.
My brother is a service writer, is that what you do?
If so, that is a sales job, and all salespeople have to take shit from all sides on a regular basis. If you don't love and believe in your company and product, any sales job becomes very challenging. He loves cars, working on them, talking about them, so it works out. I think you own a scooter and bus pass- no car, right?
8 years is too long, so I think you should plan to change. But have the discipline to figure out a move to something that pays as much or better, no matter what it is, so it doesn't mess up your big plans.
My brother is a service writer, is that what you do?
If so, that is a sales job, and all salespeople have to take shit from all sides on a regular basis. If you don't love and believe in your company and product, any sales job becomes very challenging. He loves cars, working on them, talking about them, so it works out. I think you own a scooter and bus pass- no car, right?
8 years is too long, so I think you should plan to change. But have the discipline to figure out a move to something that pays as much or better, no matter what it is, so it doesn't mess up your big plans.
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Spartan_Warrior
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Not only is the barrier to entry low, rendering competition high, personal training can be tricky for another reason--you are your own advertising. Right or wrong, most clients will believe that doing YOUR routine will result in getting YOUR body. In fact I would say physical appearance matters more than knowledge, experience, or pretty much any other factor in personal training. This is also why I wouldn't even set foot in this industry, personally--despite years of experience putting me at an advanced/mastery level of knowledge, I would be easily outcompeted by less knowledgeable dudes who happen to have better genetics for abs or more willingness to use "performance enhancers", etc.
If you already look like a fitness model this might not be a consideration. If you are fit but average looking, you have an up-hill battle. If you are high body fat, short/small-framed, soft-looking, less than perfectly proportioned, etc. regardless of fitness level, well...
More generally speaking, I wrestle with the same question of "enduring shitty job for ~8 more years and never endure a shitty job again" versus "finding a slightly less shitty job now and potentially having to endure it way longer". Right now I'm still plugging away at the former, but I can totally see the other way of looking at it. For me, it's a combination of inertia and the knowledge that (objectively) my own job is about as good as full-time office work gets.
If you already look like a fitness model this might not be a consideration. If you are fit but average looking, you have an up-hill battle. If you are high body fat, short/small-framed, soft-looking, less than perfectly proportioned, etc. regardless of fitness level, well...
More generally speaking, I wrestle with the same question of "enduring shitty job for ~8 more years and never endure a shitty job again" versus "finding a slightly less shitty job now and potentially having to endure it way longer". Right now I'm still plugging away at the former, but I can totally see the other way of looking at it. For me, it's a combination of inertia and the knowledge that (objectively) my own job is about as good as full-time office work gets.
I too am enduring the "crummy" job for the time being. I have potential leads for other jobs, but I heard that they might not be any better, and may possibly even be worse. I probably have 3 or 4 years left until "ERE" (but my current plan is to work maybe 7-8 more years for an "ER".) I anticipate that the final few years of working (after ERE is achieved, but not quite yet ER), it will be a lot less stressful at work. I am hoping that the job related stress and annoyances will "melt away" as I get closer to pulling the trigger.
I wouldn't endure a crummy job for more than 3 years. It's not worth it.
Do yourself a favor and read "So good they can't ignore you" by Cal Newport. He even talks about a woman that quit her marketing job in order to follow a "passion" and become a yoga instructor. She did a 1 month certification, and opened up a store, and then a year later she was collecting foodstamps. She probably wasn't all that frugal, but it's a good example of someone that treat it seriously enough.
Find a set of skills that you can develop and use that to get to the job you want. If you're going for personal training, then you need to develop the skills, connections, and perhaps some kind of certification, ideally before quitting the job.
What about climbing the ladder in your current job? Perhaps you can develop something that would get you promoted to the head office for example. Hustle a bit, take advantage of what's available at your work and use that to leapfrog into a job you would like.
Do yourself a favor and read "So good they can't ignore you" by Cal Newport. He even talks about a woman that quit her marketing job in order to follow a "passion" and become a yoga instructor. She did a 1 month certification, and opened up a store, and then a year later she was collecting foodstamps. She probably wasn't all that frugal, but it's a good example of someone that treat it seriously enough.
Find a set of skills that you can develop and use that to get to the job you want. If you're going for personal training, then you need to develop the skills, connections, and perhaps some kind of certification, ideally before quitting the job.
What about climbing the ladder in your current job? Perhaps you can develop something that would get you promoted to the head office for example. Hustle a bit, take advantage of what's available at your work and use that to leapfrog into a job you would like.
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George the original one
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8 years is too long if you've already got something in mind. But taking a pay cut is rough unless you're investment income is a significant percentage of your expenses.
If you're going to leave the current position, you should make a plan that is less of a pay cut or, at least, more financially secure.
If you're going to leave the current position, you should make a plan that is less of a pay cut or, at least, more financially secure.
The question becomes should I continue to work in an unsatisfying position knowing that I could be completely free in less than 8 years, or go for something I may enjoy quite a bit more while forgoing early retirement?
Yes, that is the question. And I think the answer depends entirely on whether you'd rather spend fewer years in a job you dislike or more years in a job you expect you'd like more. I don't think we can answer that for you.
Like sshawn I wonder if this is a false dilemma, and whether there might be a middle path. Could you stay in the same industry but switch employers or roles to make your work conditions better? Maybe switch to an independent shop that mostly does routine maintenance so you're giving out bad news less? Is there a version of your job where you're dealing with corporate customers? They probably don't get as upset since it's not their personal possessions or money. I bet there's a workable compromise out there.
Yes, that is the question. And I think the answer depends entirely on whether you'd rather spend fewer years in a job you dislike or more years in a job you expect you'd like more. I don't think we can answer that for you.
Like sshawn I wonder if this is a false dilemma, and whether there might be a middle path. Could you stay in the same industry but switch employers or roles to make your work conditions better? Maybe switch to an independent shop that mostly does routine maintenance so you're giving out bad news less? Is there a version of your job where you're dealing with corporate customers? They probably don't get as upset since it's not their personal possessions or money. I bet there's a workable compromise out there.
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jacob
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1) I would not leave a job if I didn't have a steady/sufficient income to replace it to avoid grinding down net worth. Yet others would.
2) I would not stand/stay more than a year, tops, in a job or a situation that made me unhappy.
3) I don't consider ERE a race or a finish line to be crossed. You're living for the sake of living, not for the sake of accumulating money. However, most of what I find fun ends up making some money.
In conclusion, I would happily delay the gratification of crossing an imaginary finish line in return for making the ride to get there more enjoyable.
Specifically, I suggest NOT quitting your job until you can actually generate at least your expenses from a side-job as a PT. This speaks to the importance of having a diverse set of incomes. If you can cover your expenses with one source, you're at risk, two sources, you're good, three sources, you're great.
2) I would not stand/stay more than a year, tops, in a job or a situation that made me unhappy.
3) I don't consider ERE a race or a finish line to be crossed. You're living for the sake of living, not for the sake of accumulating money. However, most of what I find fun ends up making some money.
In conclusion, I would happily delay the gratification of crossing an imaginary finish line in return for making the ride to get there more enjoyable.
Specifically, I suggest NOT quitting your job until you can actually generate at least your expenses from a side-job as a PT. This speaks to the importance of having a diverse set of incomes. If you can cover your expenses with one source, you're at risk, two sources, you're good, three sources, you're great.
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DividendGuy
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Thanks so much for the support and thoughts everyone. It's very much appreciated!
It sounds like many of you are recommending to somehow make this a side hustle before I make any permanent move so that I can make sure it'll work out. I don't think this is really possible, as I don't have any room on my plate right now. Between working over 50 hours per week, spending 3 days per week at the gym, blogging on a very regular basis, and also keeping up with life in general I can't imagine trying to work a part-time job as a side hustle on top of all of it. It would burn me out too quickly, as I'm already on the verge of burning out right now.
I need to think on this a bit more, or maybe come up with a better idea. I'm not sure. I do think I could turn this passion into a paying career, but like many of you I am concerned about it providing a comfortable living, or at least comfortable enough to make the jump and sacrifice worth it all. It would really be quite unfortunate to delay early retirement by a significant timeline and still not have enough excess money to really make it all worth it in the mean time. At least now the excess capital I make from my current job makes it more tolerable.
Thanks again for the support everyone. I'll be thinking on this quite a bit.
It sounds like many of you are recommending to somehow make this a side hustle before I make any permanent move so that I can make sure it'll work out. I don't think this is really possible, as I don't have any room on my plate right now. Between working over 50 hours per week, spending 3 days per week at the gym, blogging on a very regular basis, and also keeping up with life in general I can't imagine trying to work a part-time job as a side hustle on top of all of it. It would burn me out too quickly, as I'm already on the verge of burning out right now.
I need to think on this a bit more, or maybe come up with a better idea. I'm not sure. I do think I could turn this passion into a paying career, but like many of you I am concerned about it providing a comfortable living, or at least comfortable enough to make the jump and sacrifice worth it all. It would really be quite unfortunate to delay early retirement by a significant timeline and still not have enough excess money to really make it all worth it in the mean time. At least now the excess capital I make from my current job makes it more tolerable.
Thanks again for the support everyone. I'll be thinking on this quite a bit.
^ That's a good idea, but an awful lot of jobs (at least in my experience) have been ridiculously inflexible about school. All three of these jobs were ones that paid significantly above min. wage, too, but I might as well have been working in a sweatshop in terms of their corporate policies.
Of my last three full time jobs, one allowed me to leave work 15 minutes early twice a week even though I needed to leave 30 minutes early to make it to class on time (which meant I got to that class late every time I had work before it). I didn't think they would give me even the 15 minutes the following semester, which was part of why I quit.
The other allowed me to leave 1 hour early 1x a week even though to get to class on time I need to leave early 2x a week (so now I get to class an hour late once a week). That's my current job, and if I don't get fired, I'll definitely lose the job some time next fall when I need time off for a short internship.
A third job happened to line up well with work but I left that because it would have created problems with classes down the line, and they also randomly scheduled meetings in the evenings now and then, which would have gotten in the way of classes eventually.
What I'm saying is that I think most FT employers would much rather fire you than allow you to leave an hour or two early for class, much less allow you to drop down to PT. But you'll never know if you don't ask.
Of my last three full time jobs, one allowed me to leave work 15 minutes early twice a week even though I needed to leave 30 minutes early to make it to class on time (which meant I got to that class late every time I had work before it). I didn't think they would give me even the 15 minutes the following semester, which was part of why I quit.
The other allowed me to leave 1 hour early 1x a week even though to get to class on time I need to leave early 2x a week (so now I get to class an hour late once a week). That's my current job, and if I don't get fired, I'll definitely lose the job some time next fall when I need time off for a short internship.
A third job happened to line up well with work but I left that because it would have created problems with classes down the line, and they also randomly scheduled meetings in the evenings now and then, which would have gotten in the way of classes eventually.
What I'm saying is that I think most FT employers would much rather fire you than allow you to leave an hour or two early for class, much less allow you to drop down to PT. But you'll never know if you don't ask.