ERE vs sacrifice / The Wheaton scale of ERE.

[Seneca]

In case it wasn't clear, the production of an asset out of my SVO was quite energizing...much moreso than just buying my truck.
Converting the transmission in my truck from a 5 to 6 speed, rather than buy a newer one, or smaller suboptimal truck, to save on fuel and noise on the highway was however energizing.
I anticipate the same when we get chickens rather than pay 5 bucks a dozen at whole foods, or get a cow to raise grass fed and drug free rather than pay exorbitant grocery store prices for grass fed.

[EMJ]

@GTOO in your Soil amendments analogy 4. is of course humanure.

[J_]

It looks like this post is detoriating in "mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the purest of ere's all?

[J_]

It looks like this thread is detoriating in "mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the purest of ere's all?

[jacob]

@Felix -
Easy is relative.
For someone who doesn't know the multiplication table 5*9 is easier done on a calculator. Someone who knows will just tell you it's 45 and not have to look for the calculator.
Learning does take time. But it doesn't take maintenance.
Consider taxes. It took me about 30 hours to do them myself the first time. Now it takes a couple of hours because I already know what goes where. Going to a professional would also take a couple of hours. They are presently equally easy to do. However, doing it myself costs $0 whereas a pro costs $500. I'm, therefore, rapidly amortizing my initial investment of 30 hours (that was 6 years ago). [Also filling in the numbers myself made me realize how to optimize our return to make our effective tax rate very low. This benefit is worth way more than the pro-fee savings.]
Furthermore, learning becomes easier and easier the more you know.
ERE has a large upfront cost in terms of learning effort. Initially it doesn't beat buying, but after a couple of years it does. The is why the ERE experience during the first couple of years is a lot less fun than it will eventually be.

[sshawnn]

Interesting fact about this thread: There are not many (any?) group number ones arguing their points to or about the OP ( a group number one member.)

[KevinW]

It looks like this post is detoriating in "mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the purest of ere's all?

That tends to happen when the conversation focuses on one person's choices. I think it's easier to have a friendly conversation about general principles or hypotheticals.

But their quality is absolutely terrible, and you cannot compare them with the $60 earbuds I bought. Indeed, that's why I bought them (I had been using a cheap pair for months and got sick of the terrible quality).

As I said, the serendepity strategy is usually best for cheapo things where you don't care about quality. The classics strategy is usually best for expensive things where quality matters to you.
If you want high-quality sound then I recommend researching audiophile headphones and buying a pair that are known to be repairable and retain resale value. There will be a large up front cost, but you will recoup almost all of it when you eventually sell the 'phones and that small depreciation cost will be amortized over many years.
True story, I've turned a small profit on my audiophile stereo because on average I've sold each component for a higher price than what I bought it for. So actually the Great Material Continuum is paying me to enjoy beautiful sound.

It's easier to buy a new pair of earbuds than to learn how to solder them, wait for a soldering iron on craigslist, and spend the time soldering it (and then the fix may fail because the problem is something else).

The reverse is true when you plan ahead and acquire the spares, parts, and knowhow before the need arises. I used the word "stockpile" deliberately. When the cheap free headphones I use for podcasts eventually break I'll be able to repair or replace them without leaving my home. Actually that will be faster and easier than traveling to a store or waiting for drop-shipping to arrive, let alone earning the money for the purchase.
Cooking is another example. Equipping a kitchen and stocking a pantry might cost $500 starting from scratch and learning to cook takes effort. At that moment buying a $8 McDonalds meal seems easier and cheaper. However after this initial investment of effort and capital, food is forever cheaper and easier. And *healthier*, which *supports other goals*, which is where the synergy and upward spiral effect comes from.
For example a couple weeks ago avocados were on sale and I felt like a fancy Sunday breakfast so I made "California" Benedict (avocado instead of ham). Long ago I learned about the components of Benedict and how to make Hollandaise. I had bought all the other ingredients on hand as part of my routine pantry-keeping, and had homemade brioche in the freezer. The cost per serving was maybe $2-3 and I'd put the product against any restaurant brunch. But this was only possible due to past investments in learning technique, equipping my kitchen, and stocking a versatile pantry.
So yes, there is an uncomfortable period when you first start building up these capabilities where you have to put in a lot of energy and some cash, and don't see any immediate return. But once you have these facilities set up to meet all your anticipated needs, that investment starts paying off and things start getting easier and cheaper, and dare I say better. I think that's what @jacob is referring to in the analogy to martial arts training, where there's a period of doing breakfalls and punching drills for pedagogical reasons, which seems like pointless busy work at the time.

[jennypenny]

So much of the discussion seems to focus on whether it's worth the time/effort/savings to learn a new skill. Is choosing to learn a skill always about the ROI?
Does anyone ever really regret learning a new skill? Most of my regrets are about not learning skills sooner.

[J_]

To my humble opinion the discussion originated in not ROI things, but just other ere topics. First e.g . Learning to play piano, or ukelele, just for fun, because you have now time (after ere) and the peace of mind to study and enjoy it just for those reasons.

May be you can later earn something with your play ( or when you are not so good, get some money for not playing!) but that is not intended.
On the other hand: the willing to learn many skills, lead towards that some of them will gain also (some) profit.

[Dragline]

IMO, whether a skill/activity is worth doing depends largely on whether it fulfills three factors to some extent: Autonomy, Mastery and Purpose.
Most of this discussion has focused on Purpose, and in particular, whether it saves enough money to justify it. But the components of Autonomy -- "I'm doing it because I want to -- not because I have to" and Mastery -- "hey, this is really cool and I can get better at it and I like that" are no less important. Others have noted here and in other threads that the Mastery component often can fulfill an aspect of spirituality -- think "The Zen of [fill in the blank]"
I always consider these three factors when deciding whether a new activity/skill is worth my time. And more importantly, re-evaluating periodically whether what I am doing with my time still fulfills these factors. It helps in deciding when to make changes and not falling into the "consistency" trap of just doing the same things you did before.
The reason many people are unsatisfied with their jobs is because they are lacking in one or more of these three components.

[noskich]

Great topic, while frugality has always been my lifestyle Ive been feeling stressful since I decided to pursue FI. I just feel the urge to reach it ASAP and that has been kind of a pressure Ive been living under. I stopped enjoying work and cant wait to get it done. Havent been particularly lucky with investments and hunt for a part-time job either. So I find it somewhat difficult to push through 3-4 years more.

[akratic]

I see myself as someone who naturally punches hard (high income, low needs) and mastered the techniques quickly (got FI) but haven't necessarily grokked the deeper stuff yet (what exactly am I supposed to do with all this freedom again?).
Maybe it's because I'm closer to $200/hr person than the median income person, so specialization has always been to my advantage (rather than disadvantage).
Most of what I got from ERE so far has been on the technique level: there's a ridiculous ROI on cooking and strategically choosing where to live, plus I learned a new way to think about money in terms of years/SWRs. Also just knowing that FI was possible in a short amount of time made it seem more real and achievable.
That said, I didn't really make any sacrifices in my pursuit of ERE, although I think that mostly had to do with punching hard (both in the offense sense of making good income, and in the defense sense of naturally not wanting possessions or status in the eyes of others).
PS: I think there are people for whom ERE would be an uphill sacrifice filled battle the whole way, and people who would find it energizing, natural and freeing. In my opinion, the difference mostly stems from what the person's highest values are, which I don't think are particularly malleable.

[George the original one]

> Does anyone ever really regret learning a new

> skill? Most of my regrets are about not learning

> skills sooner.
I'd agree with that.
Also, I think that it's equally important to find out our own limits for perfection, ability, etc. You can better evaluate opportunities as a result.

[secretwealth]

"Also, I think that it's equally important to find out our own limits for perfection, ability, etc. You can better evaluate opportunities as a result."
Also, I think it's important to respect and tolerate others' limits for what we define as perfection and ability. People with ideas tend to do a lot more good for society than people with ideologies, and I don't think it'd do anyone much good to look down on people choosing a different lifestyle.

[BeyondtheWrap]

Does anyone ever really regret learning a new skill? Most of my regrets are about not learning skills sooner.
Sounds like an INTJ thing to say. I'm guessing that what someone regrets probably varies based on their personality type.
Something like this:
NT: not learning skills sooner

NF: not being myself or spending time with loved ones

SP: not traveling enough or experiencing enough

SJ: doing something I'm not supposed to

[WFJ]

Here's something that's been bothering me for a while. Perhaps I shouldn't be bothered because it seems like there's a natural progression... just one of those things. I still think it's helpful to ponder this issue.
Let's step back and consider the ERE forum participants ...
I think we can split them into two groups.

1) Those who have been living this way for years. (minority)

2) Those who are just starting. (majority)
My suggestion is that group (2) should study group (1) carefully to figure out the differences between their own thinking and the thinking of those who've made it because it's quite likely that some day they'll think the same way. The main question is the process from 2->1. Are you going to make your own mistakes or will you learn from other people's mistakes. I think studying those who are already in the place where you are going is as very valuable strategy.
It is primarily a matter of perspective. Your general knowledge determines how you see things. Here's an important observation:
People in group one rarely emphasize their money. They just take money for granted. The don't talk about whether their "lifestyle" is upper clas, middleclass, MMM-style, or ERE-style realizing that lifestyle has nothing to do with how much you spend but with what you do. Since I don't live in isolation, I get to see lifestyles from all classes, and what I see is that there's no visible difference between a couple spending $10000/year and a couple spending $100000/year. In particular, if you didn't know you couldn't tell.
Any differences in the connection between spending and lifestyle is simply in YOUR head. This is the proverbial: "Does the person driving the new BMW actually make a lot of money or did he buy it on credit?".

You don't know, right! There's a similar one, which I think many miss, namely "Does the person living on $10000/year live a poor life or is he just that much better at getting value for money?" "Does the person spending $100k/year live twice as good as the person spending $50k?" You don't know, right? In particular, do you think that a person who spends twice as much you do has it twice as good as you? If no, why do you think that a person who spends half as much only has it half as good?
The ends (looks, apparent features, amount of stuff, kinds of stuff) are the same. But the means (buying, couponing, sales, trading, building) are very very different. If you talk about the ERE lifestyle, it's tilted towards trading and building with a few sales thrown in. Conversely, the consumer lifestyle is tilted towards buying and couponing. And whatever passes for mainstream frugality is somewhere in the middle of that spectrum.
Another difference is that those who are starting (group 2) see money as a scarce resource: Must make enough. Must make sure that the money is safe. Those who've been at it for a while (group 1) sees money as something that just comes to them serendipitously. They live in a way where they're paid to live: "Hey, I'm superinterested in programming, so let me do that for fun for a year. Then I get involved in development project and then suddenly someone wants to pay me $2000. Sure, I spend a couple of months on that, for fun." If such things are going on constantly, they become expected, and you stop worrying about one-source incomes. Instead it becomes a multisource income model. It's like how most of us don't talk about oxygen or tap water. We just presume it's there. Yet the beginner perspective is still focused on money-as-scarce-resource so they're focused on replacing the scarce resource from their job with a scarce resource from investments.
I occasionally get emails from people who've been doing this for 20-30 years. They never talk about their money, nor do they use terms like "FI", "SWR", and "sacrifice". They talk about what they do. The opportunities that fall into their lap. The sporadic income: Then I started a business for two years. Then I sold a house and bought another one.
I often think about this. I think "lifestyle" is an extremely limited way to look at life. It's very present focused and has no context. Consider how my detractors said I was "going back to work" as if I was going to go back forever. Whereas if you begin to consider ERE as a _life history_ instead, then things get more interesting. In fact, when those with 20-30 years of ERE experience write me, the email is not about their "life style". It's about their life-history: Then I did this for a few years. And then I moved there. And then I did this. And Now I'm ...
Of course these are just words, that is, information. What I'm really saying is that there's a difference in "wisdom" (defined as knowledge AND perspective) between the two group. It's hard to teach wisdom with words. It may indeed be impossible to teach. It's something one has to teach oneself through experience.
This also makes it hard to convince other people what that "different perspective" actually is, because it's no easy to see.
Therefore we often turn to metaphors. Lets use martial arts.
The world as it is now is that everybody goes to school and learns just one technique, say the the left hook. Over twenty years of training, they become very good at the left hook. Success is measured in terms of how good your left hook is. Whether you win or lose is determined by the strength of that left hook. This is YOUR PERSPECTIVE.
Now enter a group, call them ERE fighters. They say they don't actually use the left hook very often. Some say they don't actually fight that much at all. Now from "YOUR PERSPECTIVE", they must therefore not be good fighters at all. They say they use a different style which makes little sense to you overall. In your mind, you'd maybe pick and choose a few of their techniques, perhaps a front kick, but you still evaluate success by the power of left hooks. However, you're open-minded and thus you begin to learn different techniques. You learn that the right arm can bunch too. (To a sword fighter it would quite the novel innovation

to use BOTH arms and use TWO swords!) You learn how to kick. You even learn how to block. As such your fighting style changes enormously and you start winning. An outsider who doesn't grasp this new style will look at your strength sheet. Left hook: Poor, it says. And haven't seen you fighting, he judge your chances poor. Looking at an even more advances fighter, it might say left hook--not used. Surely the sign of a losing fighter. But that turns out not to be the case. However, you'd have to KNOW that "left hook" is not a good metric for a multi-dimensional fighter to actually realize this. The ultimate step is having developed such a reputation and composure that you don't need to fight at all. That's the end-point of ERE.
Here's something else to ponder. Stoic in its modern form means living an austere form of life. However, in its original form it meant living in harmony with nature. A life without friction. The point of ERE is to reach this state. This is a life where you don't have to struggle for anything. Just by living the way you are, all your wants and needs are satisfied automatically.
In the name of "personal growth" I think, therefore, it's helpful to identify where one is on this scale of development. I'm definitely not quite there yet. However, I am quite removed from the initial perspective. And I think I have an idea of what the end-point feels like.

Good stuff. Have you considered doing a "Best of forum" type document? I'm relatively new to the forum and probably won't hunt for all the nuggets.

I've basically been in group #1 my whole life and can't imagine being in group #2, joining them would probably cause some kind of psychological distress although I can afford to (also don't consume twice as much air or store tap water which would also cause distress).

One assumption that seems to populate the ERE lifestyle is that everyone possesses a flexible brain and can learn at a reasonable rate in many domains. Many individuals can only learn a "left-hook" and therefore only look for opportunities to use their left hook knowledge while others can learn a variety (or even enjoy learning) new skills as opportunities present themselves. Think it's called Neuroplasticity and is very different among individuals and over time. MMM seems to be a philosophy to "master the left hook" (rigid 4%, 60/40 until one dies mantra, early retirement police no-knock raids) ERE is seeking ways to learn new skills to apply to the problem of lifestyle design.

In my own ERE journey, in addition to having family members who followed many aspects of the ERE lifestyle, I was also exposed to many families who were at a completely opposite end of the economic scale. Due to my natural aptitude, I was recruited to attend a prep schools filled with the children of extreme privilege as an academic ringer. I would spend time with my lower middle-class friends and spend time with the elite friends and did not see much different in life utility despite the stark differences in economic class. At a young age, I had first-hand knowledge that great wealth and consumption had no impact on any aspect of life utility and never saw the point of earning money to consume at any level above lower middle class. No way to determine which experience was dominant or significant in lifestyle development.

[mountainFrugal]

Good stuff. Have you considered doing a "Best of forum" type document? I'm relatively new to the forum and probably won't hunt for all the nuggets.

This is a great idea! I am also not sure if it exists. I have a growing list a text document that I can contribute if it exists. I think that @whitebelt tends to always show up with some GOLD links so maybe he is a good person to ask?

[mathiverse]

Good stuff. Have you considered doing a "Best of forum" type document? I'm relatively new to the forum and probably won't hunt for all the nuggets.

There is this old "Best of 2017" thread that got some additional posts in 2019: viewtopic.php?t=9517

This is a great idea! I am also not sure if it exists. I have a growing list a text document that I can contribute if it exists. I think that @whitebelt tends to always show up with some GOLD links so maybe he is a good person to ask?

+1 that a thread like that would be worthwhile. Maybe a general "best of" instead of one that is limited by the year.

[Stahlmann]

bump crew, welcome to

BTW, @jacob have you run some script to delete shorter messages? I think I bumped this one in the past.

[mathiverse]

I started the "Best of" thread: viewtopic.php?t=12285