Obtaining a Second Passport

Simple living, extreme early retirement, being wealthy, ...
henrik
Posts: 714
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: EE

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by henrik » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:59 am

Well done as far as "opening up new options" goes. You can now legally live and work in 28 new countries. Also to stand in the (mostly) shorter passport control line when arriving anywhere in the EU:)

SimpleLife
Posts: 771
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:23 pm

Re:

Post by SimpleLife » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:38 pm

jacob wrote:Oh man, I wish the world's national leaders would believe as much in the free movement of people as they would of the free movement of stuff and capital.
The EU passport is certainly handy because it opens up a large part of the developed world to live it.
The alternative approach is to be rich. It's more than ERE standards, but about $500k will give you access to countries through start-up business visas. Some countries charge less, for the US it's around half a mil. I even remember seeing some organization in the US that was running some LLC where you bought a 500k share---it has to do with "creating jobs for Americans".
The second alternative approach is to be highly educated. That's the H1 or J1 equivalent of the US. Of course that ties you to a company instead. This transnational corporation domain is probably where the world is moving anyway.
Then there's the WTSHTF reason which is escaping a country gone crazy. This would likely be done along with a bunch of other refuges and having an alternate passport to separate yourself from the crowd would help. (I really think North America is one of the least likely regions in the world to call for this problem.) In this regard, I'm not sure a passport from an alternative trouble-zone is going to be as strong as a trouble-free country.
The downside to dual citizenship, I'm told, is that if you're ever in diplomatic trouble, each country might say that you're the "other country's" problem. Also more paperwork wrt taxation for some countries.

As usual, Jacob has covered every angle.

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 3862
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Ego » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:01 pm

Henrik, now that it has actually gone through, the options are swirling through my head.

RealPerson
Posts: 637
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by RealPerson » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:36 pm

I have had a US and EU passport for many years. Never encountered a drawback. Good options with both, although in reality I almost never use the EU passport. I did use my EU passport to enter Brazil, because they had a huge entrance fee for the US, but EU was free. That would be "nationality arbitrage". 8-)

I often wondered if it would be better to use the EU passport more. Especially in the Arab world, the US is not particularly popular. The color of your passport may determine whether you live or die in some parts of the world. I don't know if there are cases where dual citizens saved their hide by pulling out the right passport given the circumstances.

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 3862
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Ego » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:23 am

RealPerson wrote: I did use my EU passport to enter Brazil, because they had a huge entrance fee for the US, but EU was free. That would be "nationality arbitrage". 8-)
RealPerson, how did the mechanics of that work? Did you show both passports when leaving the US? Did you present both when arriving in Brazil? I would imagine that the Brazilian immigration would be curious as to why you do not have a US exit stamp in your EU passport.

RealPerson
Posts: 637
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by RealPerson » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:23 pm

@Ego

This was a land crossing from Argentina to Brazil. The exit stamp from the US was not the issue: you don't get an exit stamp. However, I used my US passport to enter Argentina. Upon entering Brazil, I presented my pristine EU passport. Brazil immigration wanted to see my Argentina entry stamp. So I had to present both passports. They were fine with it and did not charge the exorbitant entry fee (around $100 or so at the time, in retaliation for US border tightening after 9/11). In retrospect, I should have entered Argentina with my EU passport. It just takes some getting used to.

Another benefit is the opportunity to enter Cuba without worrying about the legality. So countries off-limits for US citizens are no problem with your EU passport. Enjoy your new found freedom!

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 3862
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Ego » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:41 pm

RealPerson, that is great info.... Thank You!

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 3862
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Ego » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:54 am

Spain is finalizing a law that will permit Sephardic Jews, those who can prove Sephardic heritage and those with Sephardic last names to obtain Spanish citizenship. No need to actually be Jewish. Seeing that they expelled the Jews in the late 1400s, that's a lot of people.

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Spain-clo ... 492-395200

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 9062
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by jacob » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:17 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Ric ... tes_colony

Another way to Spanish citizenship is via Puerto Rican residency.

elegant
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Land of Milk and Honey

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by elegant » Sat May 23, 2015 6:25 pm

One could also convert to Judaism or prove Jewish ancestry (a Jewish grandparent would suffice) to acquire Israeli citizenship.

Pros: high quality state sponsored healthcare till you're dead; low crime; lucrative tax benefits for new immigrants; nice weather
Cons: occasional security tensions; males under 30 could be drafted; forget about visiting the arab world.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 5316
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Location: Stepford USA

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by jennypenny » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:13 am


User avatar
Ego
Posts: 3862
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Ego » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:49 am

The other day I was reading about the Social Security agreement between the US and Italy.

http://www.ssa.gov/international/Agreem ... italy.html

Apparently many governments have similar agreements. If I work/have a business for a year in Italy I am then eligible to choose which country's Social Security system I would like to use in retirement. Italy will count my years working in the US toward their system, and visa-versa. Italy's system is more generous and requires more years of work, 20 vs 10 for the US. Get this, in Italy you can retire regardless of age if you've got 35 years of credits. Top of my head calculations tell me that I've only got a few years to go to reach 35 years, assuming they count work-permit jobs when I was in high school.

That said, I'm not sure my conscience would allow me to do it.

OldPro
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by OldPro » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:55 am

There are many ways to obtain a second passport. No one has mentioned marriage or emmigration or retirement visas for example.

I have 4 passports. One through birth, one through emmigration(my parents moved our family when I was 7), one through marriage and one through investment.

Not all investment routes require you to start a business either. Just park some money in a bank account and that's enough in some countries. Nor do all have residency requirements as you can see on jennypenny's list above. Residency which can then lead to citizenship and a passport can be had through a retirement visa with some countries only requirement being that you prove an income of as little as $1000 a month in some cases.

The real question is why would you want a second passport. One main reason is to be able to live and/or work in another country. A passport from an EU country means you don't need to consider the Schengen 90 day rule for example. Anyone who has ever considered spending a year travelling in Europe after they retire quickly discovers just how annoying that 90 day rule can be.

Another major reason is for tax purposes. That's probably the most interesting reason for ER people. There can be major advantages in terms of taxes to be paid if you can move your residency to another country. I feel sorry for US citizens for whom it is next to impossible to keep the IRS from sticking their hand in your pocket no matter what you do though. Canada for example has a similar 'world wide income' clause but you can with some hassle become 'deemed to be non-resident for tax purposes.' US citizens don't have that choice.

OldPro
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by OldPro » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:01 am

Regarding pensions Ego I would take a more global view of it all. Some national pensions favour you and some do not. The most notorious is the UK national pension which penalizes UK citizens who choose to move and live in some countries vs. others. Read here: http://www.expatforum.com/banking/briti ... inked.html
So a UK pensioner who wants to move to Canada or Australia will not get an index linked pension but one who moves to most other countries will. Where is the fairness in that?

If the Italian pension favours you vs. the US pension and you then also look at the unfair UK pension law for some of their expats, I would see that as a 1-1 tie. People 1, Governments 1. You win on the Italian and someone loses on the UK. If I have to take the loss I can at least grin when I hear you got a win.

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 3862
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Ego » Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:19 pm

Good story from NPR's Planet Money on buying a second passport from St Kitts & Nevis.

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/ ... s-passport

This is the book they mentioned in the story, The Cosmopolites, The Coming of the Global Citizen.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Cosmopolites- ... 099097636X

Did
Posts: 619
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:50 am

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Did » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:30 am

@oldPro I think the Aust. Govt makes up the difference to the Brits. It's a sticking point as there are so many.

I'm working towards getting an Irish passport through marriage. I have to make sure I don't leave Ireland for more than 6 weeks a year for three years. Pretty narrow minded hey. They use any excuse for not giving you one, including if they think you will be a burden on the State. If I claimed one benefit once I would be out. I wouldn't of course it is not my nature, but I am concerned about having such a low income. I'm thinking of taking some employment 6 months before I hit the three year mark to tick that box.

fips
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu May 30, 2013 9:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by fips » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:08 am

For making the initial choice, have you consulted this recently updated study?

thrifty++
Posts: 651
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by thrifty++ » Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:35 pm

Depends what the passport is and how easy it is to get it. I always maintain both Canadian and NZ passport at all times. Useful as I flit between the two countries and its nice to know Aussie is always there too through the NZ passport just in case I ever want it. Both passports are extremely easy for me to get through parentage and birthplace.
But if there was anyway I could get a UK passport I would absolutely jump through the hoops to do so. I think thats the best you can get. Gives you access to the UK, all of the EU, and easier ability to immigrate to other countries in the commonwealth. Alas getting one too hard for me. Fourth generation NZer and Canadian.

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 3862
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Ego » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:59 pm

We've finally collected all of the documents for the application for Mrs. Ego's Italian citizenship. I just got an email telling me to pay the 200 euro fee to the Ministry of the Interior. They provided an IBAN code, a SWIFT code and a Eurogiro name. I guess this mean I have to do a wire transfer but I don't know. It seems like my credit unions charge $40 or $45 for International Wire transfers. Any ideas on the best way to accomplish this?

User avatar
TopHatFox
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:07 pm
Location: NY; 23
Contact:

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by TopHatFox » Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:11 pm

@Ego, can you detail the Italian citizenship application process here-- how'd you do it?

Incidentally, my grand-father on my dad's side was Italian, which means my dad is, and so am I--but I need to re-claim it. Being part of the EU sounds useful, particularly for travelling.

belgiandude
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:47 pm

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by belgiandude » Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:17 pm

Transferwise

rube
Posts: 427
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:54 pm
Location: Europe (NL)

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by rube » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:34 am

Wire transfer would be the only way I know off.

My (European) bank would only charge me about 6 euro international (outside Europe). 40-45 USD seems a lot!

Possible workaround: I'll make the wire (no fees for me inside EU) and you pay me through PayPal? I guess PayPal fees are much lower.

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 3862
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Ego » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:54 am

belgiandude wrote:Transferwise
Super tip! Thank you! The fee will be $3.

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 3862
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Ego » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:55 am

rube wrote: Possible workaround: I'll make the wire (no fees for me inside EU) and you pay me through PayPal? I guess PayPal fees are much lower.
Hey Rube, that was nice of you to offer. Thanks!

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 3862
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Ego » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:12 am

Zalo wrote:@Ego, can you detail the Italian citizenship application process here-- how'd you do it?

Incidentally, my grand-father on my dad's side was Italian, which means my dad is, and so am I--but I need to re-claim it. Being part of the EU sounds useful, particularly for travelling.
Sure. First things first. Make sure your grandfather acted in this order:

1) Left Italy and moved to his new country
2) Had your father
3) Obtained citizenship in the new country.

If he did 3 before 2 then you are out of luck.

You must obtain birth, death, and marriage certificates for grandfather, father and you as well as naturalization documents for your grandfather. Apostille the non-Italian certificates in the country of origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostille_Convention

The first thing to figure out is where your grandfather was born then request a copy of his birth certificate. Best way to do that is the Mormon database https://familysearch.org/ It is free. If you can't find it online, go to one of their family history centers.

https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Introd ... ry_Centers

That's a start.

Post Reply