Obtaining a Second Passport

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nomadscientist
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by nomadscientist »

Meaningful second passports not only come with real duties and restrictions but aren't easy to obtain.

True paid-for passports (St Lucia etc.) are issued by countries-in-form-only and are likely to be disregarded out of hand if it ever really mattered.

Being born in a "country" like Austria and getting a passport of a "country" like Sweden is more akin to obtaining a new hukou than what previous ages would have meant by nationality.


Any truly sovereign country has the capacity for and accepts the risk of war, as that is what it means to assert sovereignty.

The alternative is to live in a protectorate (Austria, Sweden...) which are often able to parasite their protector's war-making ability, but equally often are given or sold as war-booty or simply made into battlefields and then abandoned (Belgium in a past paradigm).

The only difficult passport to obtain in the West is the Imperial Roman (American) passport, but we appear to be approaching the reign of Caracalla in which it will be given to anyone who turns up at the same moment its privileges dissolve and its burdens are increased.

Truly independent but not consequential states: Thailand, North Korea, Cuba.

Otherwise, Russia - that passport is obtainable (with significant cost and, yes, real burdens at the end). China - almost unobtainable. Japan, Korea - questionably independent, obtainable but very difficult to obtain.

In many ways living abroad as a permanent traveler or ex-pat is more powerful than obtaining a foreign passport. States are slow to injure the nationals of other states, even inconsequential states. They are much quicker to injure their own nationals. Asserting a foreign nationality against your birth nation inside your birth nation is surely one of the quickest paths to total destruction.
Last edited by nomadscientist on Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ducknald_don
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by ducknald_don »

white belt wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:20 pm
Edit: I also look at a lot of things from a military perspective and most of Europe does not appeal to me since it can’t even provide for its own defense (NATO falls apart without the US and most member countries don’t even meet their agreed to defense spending levels). I foresee conscription to become much more common in EU nations if/when the USA decides defending Europe is too much of a liability.
That works both ways, countries with a big military are often tempted into conflicts (Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc) that they would be better off avoiding.

chenda
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by chenda »

jacob wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:03 am
what to do if one of your passports declare war on the other passport? I consider it highly likely that ultimately "the lunch ain't free" and that rights also come with duties. Countries making it easy to obtain citizenship want something, if nothing else, a hefty application fee.
I think it was noted above that there are usually treaty clauses which cover such an eventuality, however unlikely. If Sweden and the US ever decide to go to war with each other, dual citizens would be excluded/barred from serving in either countries armed forces, iirc (a treaty clause explicitly covers such a possibility) I don't know what all the reasons behind granting citizenship on ancestry is though it might help smaller countries punch above their weight in diplomatic circles. Apparently there are 14 million Irish passports in the world for a country of less than 5 million.

I still think the benefits of dual nationality are more than likely to outweigh the risks but I agree it should be carefully considered. Conscription is one of the few things I am quite libertarian about and think its vaguely outrageous, although its not hard to argue if its deemed necessary the burden should be shared equally between men and women. Not that I wouldn't have likely fled to south america in 1939...

Speaking of passports, someone pointed out to me that British passports have a picture of a unicorn on the front. I had to check and yes, they do, a roaring unicorn with a rather phallic looking horn. If anyone knows a more ridiculous national symbol do share.

@nomadscientist - I think both Austria and Sweden are more than 'real' enough for the passport not to command St.Lucia style suspicion.
Last edited by chenda on Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

white belt
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by white belt »

Yes, conscription is my biggest concern. Getting put into some kind of detention center because of my dual nationality during a conflict may be a secondary concern (see interment of Japanese Americans in WW2).

The conscription debate is an interesting one. I suspect in the next few years it will move into public discourse in the USA. There are ongoing legal challenges that the Selective Service System is unconstitutional because it discriminates against men, especially since women can now serve in any military role. I’m pretty introducing conscription of women is politically unpopular on both sides because conservatives like traditional gender roles and liberals don’t like war, but maybe #wokeism will prevail and we’ll see a measure that gives women the option to serve like in Denmark. In the US military, women can easily avoid service with pregnancy anyway, while men are not afforded such a luxury.

I think I’d rather live in a country with a competent military than one that is at the mercy of neighboring nations or allies, but there are of course pros and cons to both. The USA has waged some stupid wars since WWII, but on the other hand it still serves as the “Team America World Police” role for various reasons (e.g. the US Navy patrols global trade routes). One of the few things I agreed with Trump on was ending the Afghanistan War and pressuring NATO allies to provide their own fair share of defense. We get a lot of flack in the USA for our shitty societal safety nets, but the reality is defense is expensive and the USA is subsidizing the defense of European nations who have strong social welfare systems.

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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by fiby41 »

chenda wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:13 pm
If anyone knows a more ridiculous national symbol do share.
The unicorn is the most widely found symbol among the Indus Valley seals. Some say it is actually the side-view of the sacrificial animal. Others consider the seals to be inspired by rhinoceros. In either case, the folds on the neck, indicate it was either domesticated or restrained.
Image
As to weather it represents a city-state or tribe-clan, the jury is still out. Most interesting theory is that the unicorn was the symbol of the middle-management or tax and customs collectors, the bureaucratic class, universally hated but essential to the functioning of sea-faring urban cities, so much so that when they were no longer required after a run of 800 years, when unurbanization crept in, they were happily forgotten with little cultural memory and the unicorn motifs were not reused unlike other IVC seals.

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Ego
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Ego »

I would be interested to hear of situations where people actually regretted having multiple passports. Theories are great and speculating on what could potentially happen in theory makes for fun mental games but doesn't really apply to the real world.

The way I see it, someone like Jacob or the Japanese Americans during the war are/were more vulnerable than someone who has dual citizenships but is living in their original country. In other words, the person is more vulnerable in the country where they are more or less obviously not native.

Inversely, I encounter many people everyday who benefit greatly from having dual citizenships.
Last edited by Ego on Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chenda
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by chenda »

@fiby41 - interesting thanks! Do you know what the symbols/letter are at the top ? They look somewhat like Germanic runes.

The 'lion and the unicorn' nursery rhyme is now going around my head...

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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by jacob »

Ego wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:30 pm
I would be interested to hear of situations where people actually regretted having multiple passports. Theories are great and speculating on what could potentially happen in theory makes for fun mental games but doesn't really apply to the real world.
Speculating on what might happen in theory might save your a$$ one day in case it becomes [your personal] reality. Sorry, I think very probabilistically, so I worry about becoming a case study. The problem with being a dual is that it's such a small group of people (w/o political or legal pull) that they mostly get ignored/randomly thrown under the bus when treaties are negotiated or renegotiated or when either country enacts laws in response to some domestic problem or sentiment. IOW, being a dual you're mostly operating in a domain of yet-to-written laws with the problem being that you're not the one writing them because you're not rich or politically connected. Because dual is yet to be common. So almost nobody cares.

I'll give you two examples, but I could keep going albeit in a limited/idiosyncratic fashion. A common one and a specific one which fortunately didn't happen to us because I gamed this one through.

The common one is US citizens being unable to open bank-accounts in other countries because those banks don't want to deal with the added reporting hassle under FATCA. There will literally be a "are you a US citizen or resident?"-question on the account application form and insofar the answer is affirmative, they'll politely turn you down---Sorry, we're not going to hire the specialized lawyer/accountant required to deal with the few dozen/low hundred accounts of your kind. In my case, this went from speculative theory to six-figure consequential practice when my Danish bank informed me that I had a few months to close my broker account.

The specific one applied to Danish expats wanting to move to Denmark with their spouse until a few years ago. About a decade+ ago, the governing parties figured they found a loophole in international human rights law by limiting immigration to people who could demonstrate "51% belonging to Denmark" (as opposed to some other country). This was originally intended to prevent chain migration via arranged marriages seeing how the immigrant would belong >50 (not >=50) to the other country, but it unintentionally affected expats as well. To wit, one Danish/American couple with dual citizenship children made to move from US to DK only to find some months later that the American was denied entry on account of the Dane being 50/50 (50%<51%, thus rejected) because of having recently had US residency. That was after having relocated their entire household. After all bureaucrats are just doing their job. This law was changed a couple of years later after it affected an expat with enough pull to cause a media storm.

I'm not saying that one could or should generalize this. Just be aware that going dual might be opening a can of worms. Dual is not just a rich/clever purchase of cool Jason Bourne optionality in the form of a small booklet that can rest in a drawer until it's needed.

So these would be examples of either "belonging too much" and "not belonging enough". What I'm saying is that dual is an exercise in threading the needle and paying twice or thrice as much attention depending on how many passports or residencies one has accepted responsibility for.

The Old Man
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by The Old Man »

Ego wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:30 pm
I would be interested to hear of situations where people actually regretted having multiple passports.
Don't confuse a passport with citizenship. A passport is merely a document for facilitating international travel.

There are issues with multiple citizenships. A problem is the "accidental" American. That is a baby was born in the USA, but the parents soon moved back to the home country. American citizenship requires the filing of an annual tax return. There was a famous British politician who fell into this trap and was liable for tax on the sale of his property in the UK. Issues also arise with military service. Some "accidental" Americans served in the German armed forces during WW2.

The bottom line is a person should be aware of their rights and responsibilities pertaining to their country of citizenship.

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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by jacob »

The Old Man wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:48 pm
Don't confuse a passport with citizenship. A passport is merely a document for facilitating international travel.
Sure, but in practice, they're the same, no? Never one without the other?

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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by mathiverse »

jacob wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:10 pm
Sure, but in practice, they're the same, no? Never one without the other?
I believe most Americans do not have passports, so I think it is fairly common to be a citizen without having a passport in the US.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel ... stics.html

EDIT: This is only to show that one can have one without the other. (Citizenship without a passport, in particular.)
Last edited by mathiverse on Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

white belt
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by white belt »

@mathiverse

Right but it is my understanding that citizenship is a prerequisite for getting a passport in nearly all circumstances (I’d be curious to hear about exceptions).

chenda
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by chenda »

white belt wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:33 pm
@mathiverse

Right but it is my understanding that citizenship is a prerequisite for getting a passport in nearly all circumstances (I’d be curious to hear about exceptions).
Definitely, you can be a citizen without a passport but you can't have a passport without citizenship. Passports costs money and need regularly renewing. Diplomatic passports the only exception afaik.

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Alphaville
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Alphaville »

white belt wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:33 pm
(I’d be curious to hear about exceptions).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nansen_passport

+ links that branch out

The Old Man
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by The Old Man »

jacob wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:10 pm
Sure, but in practice, they're the same, no? Never one without the other?
The point being you can run into problems by having a citizenship (and required responsibilities/liabilities) that you didn't even know you had - passport not required. See accidental Americans.

Stateless people can have travel documents and by definition do not have citizenship.

Many people with citizenship do not have a physical passport as it is only necessary for international travel.

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Ego
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Ego »

jacob wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:31 pm
IOW, being a dual you're mostly operating in a domain of yet-to-written laws with the problem being that you're not the one writing them because you're not rich or politically connected. Because dual is yet to be common. So almost nobody cares.
Sure, but it is also likely that I'd be on the receiving end of heavy handed government action by my own country as it would my adopted country. Covid was a good example (from my perspective). Had it gotten too draconian I could have followed everyone else to Texas or used my second passport to move to Sweden. I don't want to argue Covid. It is just a good example that prompted me think about uncorrelated fuck-you citizenships.
jacob wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:31 pm
The common one is US citizens being unable to open bank-accounts in other countries because those banks don't want to deal with the added reporting hassle under FATCA.
Yes, just yesterday I tried to buy a few hundred dollars in a crypto project that is only listed on a few exchanges that all refuse accounts from U.S. persons. I probably could have fudged it with a VPN, my other passport and a bitcoin transfer but I figured it wasn't worth the potential trouble down the road.

Those with desirable first-passports (EU, Canada, some Asia, Aus/NZ) would have to think twice before applying for US citizenship.
jacob wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:31 pm
To wit, one Danish/American couple with dual citizenship children made to move from US to DK only to find some months later that the American was denied entry on account of the Dane being 50/50 (50%<51%, thus rejected) because of having recently had US residency. That was after having relocated their entire household.
This is an example of a failure because the American didn't acquire dual. Had the whole family gotten dual citizenship then there would have been no problem, right? Maybe I misunderstood.

What it does exhibit is the very considerable problems inherent in international relationships where both people in the relationship do not hold the same passports. I can think of several families or couples who are living in less desirable third countries because it is the only place they can both live together.
The Old Man wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:48 pm
The bottom line is a person should be aware of their rights and responsibilities pertaining to their country of citizenship.
Agreed.

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fiby41
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by fiby41 »

chenda wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:33 pm
Do you know what the symbols/letter are at the top ?
Earlier archeologists didn't accept the writing represented language at all. Now we know it does represent language because the order of letters is as random as in language. If a cat walked on my keyboard it would type something that has high entropy meaning the text would be uniformly random. If I fell asleep on my keyboard and pressed the same key continuously I'd produce a rigid sequence with low entropy. Music has high entropy, computer programs have low entropy, linguistic scripts including the Indus script are between the two.

Only in the Indus seals found in Mesopotamia (Iraq) do we find the most commonly used Indus letter repeated twice in quick succession. Similarly different patterns in writings in the Indus script found in Oman suggest that it was being used to write multiple languages.

The unicorn motif remains more or less same but the writing above it keeps changing through time. Some consider the letters to be similar to Egyptian hieroglyphics or Chinese characters than to alphabets. All this while the Indus script still remains to be deciphered.

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Jean
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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by Jean »

It really looks like a cow to me, with thé right Horn hidden by the left Horn.

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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by jacob »

Ego wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:27 pm
This is an example of a failure because the American didn't acquire dual. Had the whole family gotten dual citizenship then there would have been no problem, right? Maybe I misunderstood.
No, this was an example of the American being prevented from even obtaining permanent residency much less citizenship because the Dane has obtained US residency thereby falling under the 51% attachment rule as the couple was considered more attached to the US on account of the Dane being a US permanent resident. Insofar the Dane had just had a US term-limited visa, it wouldn't have been a problem. As it was, the American was deported.

As a consequence of that rule, many Danish/non-Danish couples started living in Germany or Sweden just across the border from Denmark.

These snafu rules have since been exchanged for a point-system. However, it's not great to be the case study in such a case having quit your jobs, sold the house, and bought a new house sending the kids in new schools only to be told a few months later to go home again. Shameful.

TL;DR - Opening some doors even just for the optionality risks closing others.

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Re: Obtaining a Second Passport

Post by guitarplayer »

The first world problem of hedging risk aside: if someone is a citizen of a non-first world country and can become a dual citizen without giving up the original citizenship, I struggle to see how downsides could outweigh upsides.

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