An interesting study has been making the rounds. Apparently people primed with organic foods are more judgmental and self-righteous than those primed with comfort food.
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi ... be/257465/
There are many parallels between healthy eating and reasonable spending. For instance, mindlessly eating without considering the consequences is very similar to mindlessly spending without considering the consequences.
Following the logic, EREers would be less empathetic and compassionate toward those who spend freely. We would have a more self-righteous attitude toward them.
I have to admit..... I do.
Anyone else?
ERE, Empathy, Compassion and Self-Righteousness
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jacob
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What I see everywhere (part of the strategizing and contingency planning part of my personality) are slow train wrecks in action.
However, if I let people in on my observations so they can avoid them, I will be seen as lacking empathy for their short-sighted choices and I'll be seen judgmental as I explain why their choice eventually leads to ruin. My telling them is driven by compassion by I have learned that their preferences are simply different than mine. They get enough of a kick out of short-term pleasure to compensate for down-the-road pain while I'm the other way around. So it's better if I just down say anything. Many prefer to learn the hard way rather having their ego bruised. (Family members still get to suffer through my apparent lack of empathy for short-term pleasure as I steer them clear of 2nd and 3rd order problems.)
The problem is, once again, that different temperaments have different priorities and that some words in the language have been co-opted by particular types e.g. outgoing is always fun (no it isn't if you're not outgoing), self-righteous is always associated with a spoken opinion (not really), and so on.
However, if I let people in on my observations so they can avoid them, I will be seen as lacking empathy for their short-sighted choices and I'll be seen judgmental as I explain why their choice eventually leads to ruin. My telling them is driven by compassion by I have learned that their preferences are simply different than mine. They get enough of a kick out of short-term pleasure to compensate for down-the-road pain while I'm the other way around. So it's better if I just down say anything. Many prefer to learn the hard way rather having their ego bruised. (Family members still get to suffer through my apparent lack of empathy for short-term pleasure as I steer them clear of 2nd and 3rd order problems.)
The problem is, once again, that different temperaments have different priorities and that some words in the language have been co-opted by particular types e.g. outgoing is always fun (no it isn't if you're not outgoing), self-righteous is always associated with a spoken opinion (not really), and so on.
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jacob
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@J_ - It's the most efficient, but it can take a looooong time to get the point over. First, typically, the other person must fail at what they're presently doing (what the "compassionate and judgmental" people would like them to avoid in the first place). Then the failing person must observe enough of you to convince themselves that your way is in their interest. And finally they must make a plan to make the transition.
So while it's efficient, it's not very effective.
So while it's efficient, it's not very effective.
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jennypenny
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I'm definitely judgemental but I'm good at keeping my mouth shut so people don't really know I disapprove unless they ask me directly for an opinion or try to push me to value the things they do. Then, they hear about it and usually that ends that relationship.
Unfortunately, even with people who don't try to push me around, I get depressed and unhappy in the company of people who eat badly, spend badly (as in, not on things that actually make them happy) and waste time (as in, not on things that actually make them happy). So that usually ends that relationship.
It's a very real issue for me. In a ideal world, I'd like to be friends with all kinds of different people but few people (myself included) are strong enough to be close to people with radically different value systems.
A
Unfortunately, even with people who don't try to push me around, I get depressed and unhappy in the company of people who eat badly, spend badly (as in, not on things that actually make them happy) and waste time (as in, not on things that actually make them happy). So that usually ends that relationship.
It's a very real issue for me. In a ideal world, I'd like to be friends with all kinds of different people but few people (myself included) are strong enough to be close to people with radically different value systems.
A
The way we use the words.... empathy, compassion, judgmental, self-righteousness .... is part of the problem. But for me it is more than that.
I can't help seeing a short step from empathy to enabling, a slippery slope from compassion to permission. The average indebted person is not in debt because of one big mistake. They are in debt because they are consistently making bad decisions. Over and over. Day after day.
Actions have consequences. By expressing my empathy and compassion I would be giving them - in a small way - license to continue making bad decisions. By forcing compassionate curiosity I would be searching for reasons (excuses) for their actions and removing one relatively small consequence.
Add to that the fact that my judgmental self-righteousness saves me from their fate. That's a good thing, right?
Not terribly politically correct. Hah!
I can't help seeing a short step from empathy to enabling, a slippery slope from compassion to permission. The average indebted person is not in debt because of one big mistake. They are in debt because they are consistently making bad decisions. Over and over. Day after day.
Actions have consequences. By expressing my empathy and compassion I would be giving them - in a small way - license to continue making bad decisions. By forcing compassionate curiosity I would be searching for reasons (excuses) for their actions and removing one relatively small consequence.
Add to that the fact that my judgmental self-righteousness saves me from their fate. That's a good thing, right?
Not terribly politically correct. Hah!
Life is better if I enjoy people for who they are today. Nothing I say will change them, and most of the time, they already know it anyway.
It took me a long time to understand this. It goes completely against who I naturally am. I have two reminders I draw upon:
1. Don't complain, compare or criticize
2. Don't be an asshole
To 99% of the population, these are identical behaviors.
It took me a long time to understand this. It goes completely against who I naturally am. I have two reminders I draw upon:
1. Don't complain, compare or criticize
2. Don't be an asshole
To 99% of the population, these are identical behaviors.
I once had a tenant who bought a beautiful new Lexus on Monday and told me on Friday that he would be unable to pay his rent on time. He wanted to know if I would waive the late fee.
I did not complain, compare or criticize. I was not an asshole. But I did not enjoy him for who he was that day and I did not waive the late fee.
Nothing I could say would change him but maybe the consequences of his actions might cause him to rethink them and make a different decision next time.
Or not.
I did not complain, compare or criticize. I was not an asshole. But I did not enjoy him for who he was that day and I did not waive the late fee.
Nothing I could say would change him but maybe the consequences of his actions might cause him to rethink them and make a different decision next time.
Or not.
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aussierogue
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I see it slightly differently. You have to remember that most of us here are still in the minority from a societal point of view. So these 'train wrecks' that we see coming are usually the most vocal and condescending when it comes to my lifestyle choices. being called a tighwad, a greeny etc etc..
So my judgements which are sometimes vocalised and sometime not, come sometime from a stance of self protection. I actually could give a flying fajitas what most people do. I care about people but i am not in control of the decisions they make. I try and stay neutral and keep open minded. But when certain views spew forth the other way....well then i guess i feel the need to expuse the virtues of simple living......and this in turn usually involved derogatory comments about those who are caught up in the materialistic, rat race bandwagon.
remember - we are the victims here...not them! lol..
So my judgements which are sometimes vocalised and sometime not, come sometime from a stance of self protection. I actually could give a flying fajitas what most people do. I care about people but i am not in control of the decisions they make. I try and stay neutral and keep open minded. But when certain views spew forth the other way....well then i guess i feel the need to expuse the virtues of simple living......and this in turn usually involved derogatory comments about those who are caught up in the materialistic, rat race bandwagon.
remember - we are the victims here...not them! lol..
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jennypenny
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>>"I can't help seeing a short step from empathy to enabling, a slippery slope from compassion to permission."
I like this. I guess it's the difference between how you feel and how you act. It's ok to feel badly for the other person but don't act on those feelings--do what you know is right. (Parents struggle with this. "This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" is true most of the time.)
I like this. I guess it's the difference between how you feel and how you act. It's ok to feel badly for the other person but don't act on those feelings--do what you know is right. (Parents struggle with this. "This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" is true most of the time.)
Having been the train wreck in the past I'm slightly more empathetic for people on the same path. Actually, I'm empathetic by nature. Combine that with the belief that people come to the error of their ways on their own, I see no reason to to be overly judgmental towards their behavior regardless if I happen to disapprove of it.
Jacob, your greatest contribution to peoples financial lives was writing your book. People will come to it when they are ready. Even though I no longer aspire down the ERE path, the principles are still very powerful and financial security, independence becomes a side effect. To clarify, ERE may no longer be the end I seek, but the principles that allow one to attain that end are valuable for a wide variety of people.
Jacob, your greatest contribution to peoples financial lives was writing your book. People will come to it when they are ready. Even though I no longer aspire down the ERE path, the principles are still very powerful and financial security, independence becomes a side effect. To clarify, ERE may no longer be the end I seek, but the principles that allow one to attain that end are valuable for a wide variety of people.
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Letusallretireearly
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First time visitor and actually going into early retirement…
As far as helping someone. I became cautious about advising / helping others after finally learning (rather late) a few things.
First was that what people wanted was often different from what they apparently needed. Like a junky wanting more stuff kind of thing. Second one was that deep inside; almost everyone intuitively always knows what they really need and they lash at you when you push it at them. And finally, that people live inside the individual “reality bubbles” (read Ego or personal Hell), gradually built from fears and desires over the course of life for protection. Such personal realities are as unique as one’s life circumstances. Yet, out of ignorance, people live and die protecting them and fighting over whose reality is "better" or "right". Thus, politics, religious scuffles and so on.
Being far from perfection myself, I don’t want to go philosophical here. I think it is just how life is. No?
As far as helping someone. I became cautious about advising / helping others after finally learning (rather late) a few things.
First was that what people wanted was often different from what they apparently needed. Like a junky wanting more stuff kind of thing. Second one was that deep inside; almost everyone intuitively always knows what they really need and they lash at you when you push it at them. And finally, that people live inside the individual “reality bubbles” (read Ego or personal Hell), gradually built from fears and desires over the course of life for protection. Such personal realities are as unique as one’s life circumstances. Yet, out of ignorance, people live and die protecting them and fighting over whose reality is "better" or "right". Thus, politics, religious scuffles and so on.
Being far from perfection myself, I don’t want to go philosophical here. I think it is just how life is. No?