Status and ERE

brian · Post by **brian** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:18 pm

Last year when traveling to Colombia, where I plan to retire in the next year or so, I realized that while I live there I will not be able to show my wealth due to security concerns. I began to feel uncomfortable because I will have no way to demonstrate my wealthy status. I also have a high status job now, and I realized that I will not have that high status job in Colombia either – two blows to my need for status. Since then I have had some open conversations with my father about the need for men (and maybe women too) to have status from our jobs.
How have other people dealt with the loss of status that accompanies leaving a high status job?
I am opening myself up to ridicule with this post, but I think the need for status is something all of us have and I see it as serious impediment to leaving a job.

lazyboy · Post by **lazyboy** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:29 pm

what about social status? You could engage in some kind of charity. Bring in your time, not money, that may bring some authority and you`ll make new friends.

JohnnyH · Post by **JohnnyH** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:53 pm

Perhaps get to the root and ask why you so crave this status?
In my mind, not being an indentured servant is the greatest example of status.

chenda · Post by **chenda** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:06 pm

Surely been a financially independent man of leisure is the ultimate status symbol ?

Dragline · Post by **Dragline** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:24 pm

Yes, you could become "The Most Interesting Man in the World" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_I ... _the_World)
But seriously, it sounds like you'd be happier staying on the job because it gives you something you value. Nothing wrong with that. At some point, you'll be more ready to retire and will have some extra dough to do it with.
This may be "Early Retirement Extreme", but still its not a race.

Spartan_Warrior · Post by **Spartan_Warrior** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:34 am

"4. When in Rome, they do as he does."
LOL
Anyway, yeah, no ridicule from me, but I do have to agree with JohnnyH and chenda. Not working for money is the ultimate status symbol for me. It might be different if I had any real status at my job or derived a sense of self-worth from it. Rather I just feel like I'm wasting invaluable time in my life, leading to a net negative effect for self-worth, to be honest. My job drains my energy and passion rather than contributing to it. But that's just me.

aussierogue · Post by **aussierogue** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:12 am

Excellent thread and yes its a big problem imo for ERE. For most people we dont even realise tht many of the decisions we make everyday are because of "status anxieties".
As i said most people or ignorant of this and it is sublominal or part of our subconscius make up. The fact that you have this awareness (which is awesome) is the first step to a cure!!!! ha..
I have had all the trapping of status success and these days i dont need them and have thrown many of them away inclduing high paid job, toys, holidays, clothes etc
key here is a few things
- people know my back story and realise my families decisison is a choice. So this is the ultimate staus is some ways....we had everything YOU WANT and now WE REJECT IT! HOW SHIT HOT ARE WE!.......
but actually a more healthy approach apart from the one above is that you need to develop a more spiritual idea of what it means to be YOU....very oprah here but the idea is for you and your family to be ok with scaling back.
Its also about the way you hold yourself....if you look defeated people will assume you have failed.
I can also recommend reading "status anxiety" from alain de botton.. also affluenza by another dude.
++
the final option is to keep "some" trapping of success.
I was able to stay in the same aspirational neighbourhood full of high status people because i paid of my mortgage. Therefore we are now able to seem just as rich as friends because they are servicing more debt (even though we have less income)
No one would even know we have lessincome and less gadgets if we are clever aboput the way we live..
good luck
aussie

Post by **jacob** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:21 am

This is a good question, because I think one has to be really "islandish" to be completely uninfluenced by other people's opinion of oneself.
However, where you "rank" in "status" completely depends on who you want to impress.
For example, educationally speaking, when talking to other people with letters after their name (e.g. PhD, PE, CPA, ...), a degree becomes a joke (Doctor? So are you a real doctor or just a phd?). When talking to people with significantly less degrees, they will be impressed: "Wow, you're a scientist!"
It all comes down to what people value.
I'm sad to say that most people don't really value the freedom and independence ERE brings. They'll gladly sacrifice it for "comfort" which I understand has something to do with spending lots of money on stuff they never use(*).
(*) Someone seriously told me that she'd rather keep working if ERE meant she couldn't collect shoes.
I only really have one example with a solution...namely that friends and family used to believe we were struggling for money (just like them, supposedly). The solution was, for one month, to post all my investment transactions and dividend postings on facebook (family is big on facebook), e.g. "Today I bought $7000 worth of ...", "Just got my quarterly check from JNJ" ... that was a post a few times per week of some dividend income. Since that month, I've heard no comments whatsoever concerning our financial well being.
(Another way of fixing that problem is just to shoot for a million bucks, this being the social convention of what it takes.)
In terms of status, it varies incredibly depending on who you talk to.
Careerists value their job title (assistant vice presidential middle manager anyone?). People without money value money (as do people with a LOT of money). Teenagers are impressed by the number of concerts you've been to. Twenty-somethings are impressed by the number of countries, you've traveled to. Vigilant mothers by the number of children you have. Some sad people derive their personal worth from what their children or spouse does. Some derive it from size of their car or their residency.
And so on.
However, ERE will generally only be valued by people who value self-sufficiency and independence. There are not many of those.

aussierogue · Post by **aussierogue** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:07 am

Good post Jacob
say it like Dr Evil "One Million Dollars"......put your pinky in your mouth when saying...always a much bigger impact..

palmera · Post by **palmera** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:45 am

LOL at the Dr Evil reference.
This is a big issue for me. I didn't realize it until I seriously started considering bowing out of the rat race in a couple years.
I live in a city that's INCREDIBLY status-conscious and status-driven. More so than average I'd say. In a perfect world, I'd ERE with a book deal. But still, my ERE plan also includes working on a VERY part-time basis for a family's company (so I get business cards with a nice title) and/or just incorporate what will be my growing real-estate (rental property) business. And get fancy business cards. Even if just to shut people up.
When I went away to go spend some time with the (now ex-) Mister, I saw him and his ex-pat community living in paradise yet still speak admiringly, wistfully and enviously of their friends back in the States who "made it" i.e. had successful corporate jobs, or growing businesses.
That made me think a lot about what I wanted and how I perceived success. I haven't fully figured it out yet, but all I know is that ERE is only half the equation (but if I had to choose, then it would be the more important part half

palmera · Post by **palmera** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:53 am

So basically, like @aussierogue, I need to keep some "trappings of success."
Also, some perspective. When my friend turned 30, he became a multimillionaire, as per his trust fund. That was two years ago and I don't feel like he has any more or less status than I do in that regard. For me, his status comes from being a musician and getting me into concerts for free and the notoriety he gets for being popular in the indie scene

It doesn't really impress me that he lazes around all day trading stocks or occasionally strumming his guitar.
However, it's still cute how adorably uncomfortable and uneasy he is about suddenly being rich. I imagine his squirmy restlessness is what a lot of young ERE'ers will feel the day they walk away from their 9-5 for good.

aussierogue · Post by **aussierogue** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:39 am

good post palmera
keeping status while ere is a constant job...and it should imo be planned for so that it doesnt become an issue....ie I have realised i need to do one or two status activities that get bang for my status buck - per year just to keep from being invisible to those ready and willing to write me off as a wierd guy who just doesnt wanna work and is lazy...
So heres what id did this year
Played my first ever gig in australia with a seriously good indi band. I asked them if i could play one gig, stand up the back and strum along to half a dozen songs. This band is faily well know donw here and my friend joins them occassionally in the brass section when they wanna crank it up...*they call it big band night)...
The other thing is we also played at a super cool pub...250 people, crowd surfing and all.
Result - Instant status amongst my friends that should get me 6 months reprieve...
Being in a band for one gig was cool for a balding, slightly tubby middle aged dude like myself...
It turned out well..i was intrudcuded as ",mystrery guitarist" and i even went into the band room at the end where we drank beer and the ugly guitarist oggled his incredibly beautiful and angelic pregnant girlfriend..
++
Moral....keep thinking of interesting ways that keep you on peoples radar and give you self asteem. Dont over think it or spend too much time doing it....but do it none the less..

secretwealth · Post by **secretwealth** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:10 am

Jacob's post is terrific.
I think
@palmera: "When I went away to go spend some time with the (now ex-) Mister, I saw him and his ex-pat community living in paradise yet still speak admiringly, wistfully and enviously of their friends back in the States who "made it" i.e. had successful corporate jobs, or growing businesses."
I have seen this a lot, having travelled quite a bit throughout Europe and Asia and seeing people enjoying what others would consider paradise--but still a bit envious, or even ashamed in some cases, that they're relaxing on a beach or living in the shadow of a medieval castle in a beautiful village instead of making six figures as a consultant in Chicago.
I think the only solution is to internalize the self-reliant and independent spirit of ERE further. This is not easy.
I have lost friends over this. My wife and I, on our way to early retirement, live in a cheap neighborhood that most people consider a ghetto. I, on the other hand, love it, but a lot of friends cannot understand why we aren't leveraging ourselves further and buying a half million dollar condo in a nicer area. One friend of ours never mentioned this directly, but it was an indirect implication in a lot of our conversations. I never expected her to understand--she had worked for Goldman Sachs and her husband was killing himself working 16 hour days as a lawyer. While we never criticized their life choices, I hoped she could stop from criticizing ours. Sadly, this friend couldn't stop her snide comments and one day angered my wife so much that she cut off all ties.

Fred Tracy · Post by **Fred Tracy** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:24 am

Humm. Status is something I have always dictated myself, if that makes sense. I have a very specific criteria for what makes someone respectable and worthy to me.. and jobs/education and so on have nothing to do with that, so I can't relate in that way.
I don't really understand how status could come from outside yourself. I could understand how people might judge you for your actions or job, but.. who cares? What do YOU think?
Now, if you think it's cool to display wealth or have a cool job.. then do it, however you can without getting robbed in Columbia. But impressing the other monkeys for no good reason is just silliness IMO.

secretwealth · Post by **secretwealth** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:01 am

I think a lot of people like to think that they aren't influenced by external judgments of status, but the fact is that it's delusional to deny the importance of other peoples' opinions. Some points to consider:
- If you have ever gotten into a debate with someone, you care about status (viz., you care about demonstrating that you are right and the other person is wrong to at least some extent)
- if you have ever gotten annoyed at someone dismissing you or your work, you care about status (if you've ever been upset at someone saying you're lazy, you're unattractive, your work isn't as impressive as someone else's, you care about status)
- If you worry about going to prison, you care about status
- If you blush, you care about status
- If you want to meet some people and not others, you care about status
- If you want to give advice, you care about status
And on and on it goes. While it may feel good to say "I don't care what anyone thinks", the reality is that we all do. I commend brian for being more honest about it than most people, but the reality is that we are biologically programmed to care about status at one level or another and it is impossible to not care about status (hell, even ascetic monks think about their status in the eyes of God).
I think it's much more honest and productive to admit the inevitability of vanity than to proudly proclaim one's ubermensch transcendence of such concerns, which is really an expression of status in itself (I'm better than you because I don't care about status).

brian · Post by **brian** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:33 am

Jacob, Aussie Rogue, Palmera, and others,

A sincere thank you for your thoughts. From reading the replies to the issue, it seems that people who are extremely close to walking away or have already done so, know the issue the best. If ERE is only a dream that is still years away, then you can’t see the all psychological impediments yet.

What I am thinking about doing is developing a new identity based on being teacher of some sort – English, yoga, or meditation and then only really teaching very part time. I probably wouldn’t earn $500 a year, but at least I could call myself a “yoga teacher.”

I think the comment above on doing charity work is very similar, and could be another good option.

As to the “Million Dollar” remark, yes I have already come to that point as well. At least if you have that, you can always say yourself, I was not a failure. I heard a line in movie once that has now become my mantra “quitting while you are ahead is not the same as quitting.”

I also like the idea of keeping at least one social status symbol – like living in “good” neighborhood.

The funny thing about status and your job is that it only comes up every once in awhile in conversation, maybe ten minutes a day every two or three days. You experience a feeling of adequacy or inadequacy and it then passes. For all the other time in your life it doesn’t matter, and yet it seems to have such large influence over our lives.

Looking forward to more coping mechanism if others have them.

DutchGirl · Post by **DutchGirl** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:19 am

I want my status to be high enough so that I can buy something in the shop or ask directions without being shunned. That's about it, when it comes to status. For the people I love, I want them to like me and value my opinions. But they already do that and that probably wouldn't change.

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:39 am

There's a very good documentary on the subject by Alain de Botton:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKkdFSqAxV8
Wanting to be liked and sometimes admired for something is a very human thing and thus nothing to be ashamed of. We are a social animal after all and that's simply a part of it.
I think looking for status is a big part of what keeps consumerism going. We have learned that we get status by owning -or at least leasing- certain things (or having a job title that implies money, which then implies that you probably have all the status objects). Be it through ubiquitous ads or simply aspirational television where everyone is a doctor and lives in a large loft, some way or another we all drank the advertisers' Kool Aid.
I've just seen a talk by David Foster Wallace (This is water), where he at one point says that people choose to worship some deity or philosophical notion of morality or the eightfold path or whatever because these things don't consume you when you worship then. If you worship intelligence, you will always feel stupid. If you worship money, you will always feel poor. If you worship status, you will always feel inferior. If you worship beauty, you will always feel ugly. Simply because you can never get enough of whichever external object of worship you choose. I found there's a lot of wisdom in that.
The video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5THXa_H_N8

Dragline · Post by **Dragline** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:52 pm

Thanks for those links, Felix. I guess I know what I will be listening to today!
The talk about a million dollars reminds me of this dialogue from "Office Space":
"Peter Gibbons: What would you do if you had a million dollars?
Lawrence: I'll tell you what I'd do, man: two chicks at the same time, man.
Peter Gibbons: That's it? If you had a million dollars, you'd do two chicks at the same time?
Lawrence: Damn straight. I always wanted to do that, man. And I think if I were a millionaire I could hook that up, too; 'cause chicks dig dudes with money.
Peter Gibbons: Well, not all chicks.
Lawrence: Well, the type of chicks that'd double up on a dude like me do.
Peter Gibbons: Good point.
Lawrence: Well, what about you now? What would you do?
Peter Gibbons: Besides two chicks at the same time?
Lawrence: Well, yeah.
Peter Gibbons: Nothing.
Lawrence: Nothing, huh?
Peter Gibbons: I would relax... I would sit on my ass all day... I would do nothing.
Lawrence: Well, you don't need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Take a look at my cousin: he's broke, don't do shit."
@Felix -- the converse of what Wallace says is that if you want to feel wealthy hang around people with less money than you, and the same for the other attributes.
I've also heard this expressed as this Q and A: Q: Why is the sixth best poker player in the country always broke? A: Because he always insists on playing with the five best players.
We all sometimes forget that in the long run, we choose our own societies and can largely ignore ones that do not reflect our values. But that's why we are all here on this ERE board, isn't it?

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:06 pm

"We all sometimes forget that in the long run, we choose our own societies and can largely ignore ones that do not reflect our values. But that's why we are all here on this ERE board, isn't it? "
In that case, rejoice. I think the median income worldwide is under 3000$ a year. You have unlimited fresh water right out of the tap and health care. Also, food.
And you don't have to work anymore for it, which puts you pretty close to the 1%. You'll have to sacrifice the iPhone-controlled electric can-opener, though. Everything comes at a price.
And since you mentioned Office space...

you can do THIS:

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploa ... -today.jpg
I guess it helps to find your status in things like your personal quirks and personality traits. If you get recognition as "that guy", and you're happy with that, that works - at least I think it would for me.
There's a nice stoic exercise where you imagine vividly you didn't have something you already have, like eyesight or toilet paper, and after you've seen how shitty that is, you'll be glad to have what you already have, and that is a pretty good definition of a subjective experience of wealth.