East vs West - Rugged Individualism vs. Lying Flat

[WFJ]

I'm wondering if anyone has thought about why seemingly similar actions are interpreted so differently in the East and West. In the West, one who drops out of the rat race and finds their own path is seen as a strong an independent individual seeking knowledge and freedom (Emerson-Nature, Thoreau-Walden, Frost-Road Not Taken). While in Asia, when one drops out of the rat race they are seem as "lying flat" and shamed.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/yo ... d=msedgntp

[daylen]

This question is quite involved as we could potentially go back a few thousand years to the dawn of Chinese civilization and look at various geopolitical patterns indicating the likely emergence of a more collectively managed government with somewhat isolationist foreign policy. Then transition more into the rise of colonialism in Europe in the past millennia that transitioned into a western super-power with just the right conditions for distributed production integrated by coal-powered trains/tracks interconnecting the nation during and after the civil war(+). Leading to a flourishing of the orange paradigm in spiral dynamics which promotes rugged individualism (i.e. wild west). Though, you can also see the orange coming out early in Asia with the connection between Hong Kong and international trade in a time of piracy keeping shipments at bay.

Asia being much bigger than China but still largely shaped by its history. Across many generations of never-seen-before/since blue stability, China has culturally leaned more towards a collective, highly context-dependent enforcement of rules/order passed down through deep'ish time. The shaming as an indication of an individual not going deep enough into the roots of the super-organism in which they are embedded. Whereas a highly orange-centric, industrialized U.S. culture leans more towards a context-free, show me what you got style of influence(*). Clearly such lines have blurred in the atomic/modern era with the post-WW2 movement of industrial activities spreading and meshing with established traditions.

(+) Itself a product of colonialism turned to slavery. The restoration of individual rights playing a major theme, of which the world is hearing the tunes today.

(*) As the cards you hold are thought to be all that "matters" in determining your potential to turn a profit.. as everything within the orange paradigm is reduced to matter or the point from which everything can be cohered into ONE.

[Western Red Cedar]

I lived in South Korea for 2+ years and have thought about this extensively. I think ultimately the difference stems from deep-rooted cultural values. Western cultures (particularly the US) tend to value individualism and competition. East asian cultures tend to value family/community and cooperation.* "Dropping out" of society is probably seen as putting the individual ahead of the group and dishonors the group. The group could be the family, neighborhood, village, company, city, or country - but is usually some combination of different groups.

Honor and "saving face" are extremely important in East asian society. Dropping out is viewed as a form of failure and thus a disgrace to the family.

T.R. Reid has a pretty readable book that theorizes a lot of this stems from Confucianism. He spent five years living with his family in Tokyo and documented how differently we approach many aspects of society.

https://www.amazon.com/Confucius-Lives- ... 0679777601

*I'm referring to China, Japan, and South Korea when I use the term East Asian. There are unique differences between the three, but I've noticed many similarities when looking at other SE Asian cultures.

[white belt]

Isn’t this a function of population density and resource availability? Societies that have lower population density and greater natural resources per capita tend to be more individualistic because you don’t need to worry about others as much (this was the selling point of the New World). USA is more individualistic than Europe which is more individualistic than East Asia. Resource scarcity tends to reduce individualism and increase collectivism because throughout human history collectivism was a lot more effective for survival.

[jacob]

https://earlyretirementextreme.com/do-i ... o-you.html --- I understand a little more than this now. Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geography_of_Thought (google Nisbett). Note how there are almost no one from East Asia here (except Singapore). I don't think that's a language problem. A small add to what WRC said: The filial component is strong. Children are supposed to work for their parents.

I'm wondering whether the Eastern model for adult ego model development is different. Between expert (~WL5) and strategist (~WL7), there is a phase of individuation (~WL6). (I added in the WLs to show what I mean... not that they necessarily parallel each other.)

[Western Red Cedar]

Kristy from Millenial Revolution talks about the dynamic of filial piety, cultural expectations, and FIRE on her blog:

https://www.millennial-revolution.com/b ... e-parents/

https://www.millennial-revolution.com/f ... rgiveness/

[WFJ]

Kristy from Millenial Revolution talks about the dynamic of filial piety, cultural expectations, and FIRE on her blog:

https://www.millennial-revolution.com/b ... e-parents/

https://www.millennial-revolution.com/f ... rgiveness/

I've lived in two SE Asian countries, which from all outward appearances, seem similar, but are more different than any two areas of the US. Professionally, I've been exposed to a large number of individuals from East Asia (China, Korea and Japan) but represent such a small and self-selecting sample of their general population that any generalization would be useless or dangerous. I am occasionally paid to explain and apply simple Western concepts (Std. dev, Correlation, Finance/stats stuff) to individuals from a wide range of cultures but find ERE does not translate at all. Lying flat has drawn the ire of the Chinese and wonder if ERE will draw similar ire with Western governments as it appears our society is trending towards "Greater good" mandates and ideas.

Below quote from above link is sometimes what I've observed when trying to explain something obvious in Western culture, but is at best opaque to someone from the East, even with similar analytical skills and training.

"Trust me I’ve tried. Even though my dad is also an engineer, trying to explain the 4% rule and financial independence to him using logic and math was like teaching a cat to do my taxes. Because of the cultural hierarchy, you parents will always assume they know more than you because they are older."

[WFJ]

https://earlyretirementextreme.com/do-i ... o-you.html --- I understand a little more than this now. Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geography_of_Thought (google Nisbett). Note how there are almost no one from East Asia here (except Singapore). I don't think that's a language problem. A small add to what WRC said: The filial component is strong. Children are supposed to work for their parents.

I'm wondering whether the Eastern model for adult ego model development is different. Between expert (~WL5) and strategist (~WL7), there is a phase of individuation (~WL6). (I added in the WLs to show what I mean... not that they necessarily parallel each other.)

This was my original assumption, Singapore and maybe Hong Kong (UK influence) would be the only two Eastern countries where ERE would translate, although more in concept than implementation. The only minimalism I've experienced in the East would be as a temporary design feature for the ultra wealthy, something like a seasonal single one-color bar/restaurant, which is redesigned for the next season (creating more waste). Now that China has flat out banned "Lying Flat" which in my mind is not significantly different from ERE/minimalism/Rugged individualism, it is a mystery to me why this side-effect of capitalism (free time) is celebrated in the West and demonized in the East. This is either a failure of China planning for this predictable side-effect of capitalism or a difference in cultural programming.

[white belt]

Kristy from Millenial Revolution talks about the dynamic of filial piety, cultural expectations, and FIRE on her blog:

https://www.millennial-revolution.com/b ... e-parents/

https://www.millennial-revolution.com/f ... rgiveness/

After reading both those posts I now have even more questions. First point would be that there is a certain amount of financial prosperity that is a prerequisite to being able to disregard filial piety, as demonstrated by the first reader who was told to save money so she can afford to pay her own rent. In that sense, cutting/reducing family ties is really only accessible to the first world.

I found the second article much more interesting. In some sense, the author's complete obliviousness to the conditions of her parent's upbringing is a pattern we see repeating throughout history. Her parent's grew up in times of crisis and instability, so they were quite focused on just surviving and making the best of the situation. Then comes Kristy who benefited from an entire lifetime of stability and prosperity butting heads with what her parents probably considered "first world problems". This is not to defend abusive relationships, but I think is common outcome of such things. I think we saw echoes of the same dynamic with the boomers vs. the greatest generation in the USA. Growing up in the hard times of the depression really shaped an entire generation in a way that the ultra-prosperous boomers just could not fathom.*

As I understand it, filial piety primary exists in east Asian countries. I wonder if economic prosperity reduces filial piety? For example, how do the ideas of filial piety in more prosperous east Asian countries like South Korea, Japan, or Taiwan compare to mainland China? Did Americans 50-100 years ago have a stronger sense of dedication towards their parents and older relatives compared to today?

* = This is covered extensively in The Fourth Turning by Howe

[Western Red Cedar]

I found the second article much more interesting. In some sense, the author's complete obliviousness to the conditions of her parent's upbringing is a pattern we see repeating throughout history. Her parent's grew up in times of crisis and instability, so they were quite focused on just surviving and making the best of the situation. Then comes Kristy who benefited from an entire lifetime of stability and prosperity butting heads with what her parents probably considered "first world problems". This is not to defend abusive relationships, but I think is common outcome of such things. I think we saw echoes of the same dynamic with the boomers vs. the greatest generation in the USA. Growing up in the hard times of the depression really shaped an entire generation in a way that the ultra-prosperous boomers just could not fathom.*

As I understand it, filial piety primary exists in east Asian countries. I wonder if economic prosperity reduces filial piety? For example, how do the ideas of filial piety in more prosperous east Asian countries like South Korea, Japan, or Taiwan compare to mainland China? Did Americans 50-100 years ago have a stronger sense of dedication towards their parents and older relatives compared to today?

I didn't reread the articles, but I know Kristy talks elsewhere about growing up in China and playing in medical waste dumps as a child. IIRC, her family were political refugees so she wasn't necessarily sheltered or stable. She just had a lot of new opportunities when immigrating to Canada.

But, to your larger point I do think economic prosperity/capitalism may correlate with reduced filial piety, or at least weaker family ties. This probably takes place over at least a few generations. In both the East and West, people had larger families to work the farm and for some assurance that they would be taken care of in old age. As countries industrialized, people started migrating to cities for other opportunities. This pattern is still playing out in Africa, China, India, and elsewhere. I suppose it is still playing out in the US as well, in rural areas that traditionally relied on natural resources like where I grew up.

South Korea developed very quickly over the last 50 years. It is still common for the first-born son to host and care for his parents in their old age, but I've heard anecdotally that the practice is slowly starting to change. I recently read that less than half of Korean households make their own Kimchi. This was a bit mind-blowing to me as an American who has made Kimchi for more than a decade.

@WFJ - I think certain facets of ERE would translate well elsewhere in Asia. There is a strong Buddhist or spiritual transition that reminds me of WL 8 - Chop Wood Carry Water. I talked to monks in Korea, Thailand, Laos, India, and Nepal about their life path. They weren't interested in the ways of the world and chose a simpler path, and the villagers would support them with donations in their rice bowls. They were often taking a side door to a higher WL IMO.

There are also loads of farmers, artisans, and others living a simple life with little interest in material possessions.

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I'd also ask whether "dropping out" is actually accepted in the West. We definitely have a tradition of voluntary simplicity and small counter-cultures choosing a different path, but it always seems a very small minority. The US seems like a culture addicted to productivity and consumption.

*ETA - I'm definitely not an expert on Asian culture or history, but I've immersed myself in it briefly and find it fascinating.

[Western Red Cedar]

This was my original assumption, Singapore and maybe Hong Kong (UK influence) would be the only two Eastern countries where ERE would translate, although more in concept than implementation. The only minimalism I've experienced in the East would be as a temporary design feature for the ultra wealthy, something like a seasonal single one-color bar/restaurant, which is redesigned for the next season (creating more waste).

I wonder a bit how Japan fits into this. The salaryman is definitely well-entrenched in the culture, but there is also a focus on minimalism, simplicity, and attention to detail in their culture (tea ceremony, flower arrangements, gardens, etc.). I think there is also a trend of younger people "dropping out" as well as many who have rejected consumerism to focus on savings in recent years.

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Here is an example from Thailand that I think speaks to a lot of ERE principles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlG9n3uBeak