A Jacob Mention

Simple living, extreme early retirement, becoming and being wealthy, wisdom, praxis, personal growth,...
mooretrees
Posts: 762
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:21 pm

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by mooretrees »

zero wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:37 am


And I am not advocating for people to be lazy, but have you ever considered how many people are scared to post here? Terrified that their post will be considered dumb or unenlightened? Now they have to contend with a Wheaten chart to see if they measure up. Are we trying to become a relic? This place will be great for the handful of people that top the charts but the audience will be gone from a very small group anyway.
As one of those people who has been, while not terrified, very gun shy about posting, I feel equipped to respond to this. I see and agree a tiny bit with the above quote. However, it didn't stop me from posting, I just choose to focus on journals or very specific threads. Or, I actually do try and read and figure out some of the 'homework before posting. I don't have a lot of energy or time for that homework, but I don't see that being a bad thing to encourage. I have a choice to either participate and be a part of the really good discussion with a small entry fee of doing some work. Or not participate and just read along. I've noticed a natural progression in that folks start a journal, post primarily in other journals and then eventually branch out into the more heady threads as they feel more comfortable and 'educated.'

I hope what I'm conveying is that while it took me awhile to start posting, I did eventually. Some of what I value out of this forum is the thoughtfulness and consideration that is taken by most before they post. Some reluctance to post because of a fear of being considered dumb might be off putting or inspiring. For me, it's mostly been inspiring.

black_son_of_gray
Posts: 504
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:39 pm

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by black_son_of_gray »

A kvetch, an idea, and an explanation:

kvetch:
I'm sympathetic with others who find the elevated terminology/communication style to be ... unhelpful (?) or even counterproductive. I've already soapboxed about that, but one last salvo, if you'll indulge me. Let's remember for a moment that the statistics of Wheaton Levels (ERE or otherwise) are such that each level higher is occupied by ~1 order of magnitude fewer people. If there are ~10^10 human beings on the planet, you're talking about insanely tiny social circles at Wheaton Level 8, 9, or 10. Then exclude children. Then exclude non-english speakers. Maybe 100, if lucky? On the planet. How many that remain know about this forum? And if they did, do they want to hang out here? (If there are a handful of you here, congratulations! You've found the ERE Giga Society.)

Point being, I can't see how typing up responses using the "complex language" of WL7,8,9,10+ is, statistically, worth the time, considering the receptive audience is so small and the irrelevant audience is everyone else. Even just "to have a record of it for those that are developing" still seems, statistically, silly to me. The math would seem to suggest that this would benefit maybe 1-5 people, while cluttering threads with language that indeed might turn off considerably more, one way or another, like a wonder drug that provides an amazing cure to 0.1% that take it, but noxious side effects for 25% (seems like an upside-down NNT to me). But that's just like, my opinion, man. This is not my house. Post what you will.
One who has just come from reading perhaps one of the best English books will find how many with whom he can converse about it? -Walden
I understand the desire for deep communication. I really do.

idea:
Just for a moment, dispel the notions of Wheaton Levels, Maslow's heirarchy, Kegan Levels, martial arts belt systems—all of that stuff. Now, consider the hourglass:

Image

What happens when an hourglass is flipped over? The sand in the top chamber is drawn down a progressively narrowing funnel, which is constricted so much that only a few grains are able to get through (it can take a long time for any given grain), and those that do then free-fall into the second chamber, and spread out along the base.

The idea is this: the grains of sand are people; the glass represents where people can go in time. You could view this metaphor through a number of lenses, but for giggles, let's use ERE. In that context, the funnel that separates the chambers starts wide (linear, paycheck-to-paycheck thinking) and narrows progressively as exponential (investments), yields/flow, etc. are incorporated into a lifestyle. What's the narrow constriction point? Systems thinking.

Some grains move faster than others, some move in little cascade cohorts. Some grains just sit for a long time without going anywhere, and in the brief snapshot of time that we have on earth, most aren't going to make it through the funnel. Someone might jiggle the funnel if it gets stuck, and that might loosen up the grains to get things flowing again, but no amount of shaking is going to dramatically speed things up. Unfortunately, the way this particular hourglass is constructed, it's more like a centuryglass—and only a relatively few grains slip through in a given lifetime. So it goes.

So far, this metaphor recapitulates certain conclusions of e.g. Wheaton Levels: There is only one direction of flow. Path-wise, any given grain could certainly take a different, unique route to get there, but conceptually there is only one way out through the hole. Where I think this idea is useful is in what happens after a grain squeezes through. 1) It falls, unrestricted by the funnel. 2) And it spreads out.

To clarify those two points, I'll bring in a comparison to Plato's Cave Allegory (which has been analogized to ERE numerous times). The cave is the funnel, and there are tons of people in there. There are people at various stages of finding their way out of the cave, but really—there is only one mouth to the cave. Ok, and now someone has just stumbled out into bright daylight and a world they didn't even know was possible... Now what? This is the free-falling sand. The world outside is vast, and there are no longer any cave (funnel) walls to act as boundaries, and boy it sure takes some head-scratching to figure out what the new terrain looks like and where to go. But inevitably, the person who has made it out of the mouth of the cave will start off away from it, along a heading that is unique to them. This is the falling grain that hits the pile at the bottom and tumbles in whatever direction fate has for them, even though many other grains bounce in other different directions. They spread out.

For what it's worth (not much, perhaps), I've found both the "falling" and "spreading out" aspects of this metaphor to be true in my experience.

explanation:
To synthesize the kvetch and the idea, I'll briefly explain why I don't post on these forums much at all anymore. (I don't feel any need to justify this, but in the past I remember other forumites lamenting that people would just leave without saying why)

SImply put, it's difficult for me to contribute anything useful because 1) I don't find many "funnel" topics interesting anymore, and 2) if I'm vain enough to say I have fallen through the funnel hole (lucky enough, more likely), I also don't find many of the pile topics particularly interesting either (or worth the effort to decipher). Perhaps I'm just in the air or on the other side of the pile, who knows? Maybe I'm still in the funnel but blind to it and too lazy :lol: This means, though, that forum member composition or shifts in the "forum culture" aren't likely to do much for me. Outside of those things, all I really have left to contribute mostly amounts to 1) spammy links I found interesting on the web, or 2) completely irrelevant niche topics which, frankly, I don't care to hear the ERE community's opinions about, and I'm pretty sure you don't want to hear about either.

In any case, maybe the above idea of the hourglass is useful and/or helpful to someone, or can help explain why some forum members bail out after a couple of years.

ffj
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:57 pm

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by ffj »

It seems like one could design the forum to meet most needs without alienating members or creating a barrier to entry so high nobody will bother trying to become a member.

For the higher functioning folks, maybe require prerequisites before they enter the conversation or at least a warning that the discussion isn't for beginners. Maybe list a couple of books as 7 suggested that should have been read and understood before commenting?

Possibly a mentor page filled with qualified folks that shifts the burden off of jacob to constantly explain beginner concepts? Leaving him more time to work on more challenging endeavors?

I would bet that group projects would stimulate more interest in the overall picture. What if jacob had an army that helped facilitate some of his ideas? Or any of our ideas that had group consensus and merit. Everyone would have an opportunity to become engaged in something other than themselves.

How about providing a reason for someone to want to join the conversation other than a general open door policy? Provide a buy-in that puts them in the game. A general contract that we expect the new person to contribute, however small and to their ability. You might end up with a ton of recipes but at least the readership would be engaged and have the ability to introduce themselves. And opportunities to contribute could be consciously provided by the staff.

There is no reason the philosophers with their thirty dollar words can't have their discussions as well as the hands-on crowd, and everything in between, as long as the members know in advance what to generally expect when a thread is started. It might stave off some miscommunications.

I'm just spitballing here. Feel free to disregard but my fear is what Black has outlined above as far as numbers. If you make this place exclusionary through policy then I would expect participation would plummet overall, and we aren't starting with a large pool of participants.

IlliniDave
Posts: 3845
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by IlliniDave »

The easiest thing would be for us as individuals to voluntarily modify our behavior in the sense of not trying to hijack a discussion and forcibly drag it, for the lack of a better term, to another "ereWL" (again, for lack of a better term). In the context of relatively recent events that could mean what I'll call mid-level folks jumping into advanced-level topics and trying to steer the discussion to a plane they are comfortable with. That's something I've been guilty of in the past having misunderstood the purpose of the forums.

Asking a respectful question to the panel of theoreticians isn't all that bad, possibly, but if the initial response(s) still leave a gap, maybe another remedy to persisting until things get contentious could be tried. For example, since the ereWL topic is one that shines a bright light on the differences, perhaps an "ereWL for Dummies"-type topic could be started up where people more interested in shaping their IRL experience in a blue collar sense than in pushing the professorial envelope could do their thing.

And of course the converse would be required as well. If there's rubber meets the road-style thread going on, creating a new topic that is an academic riff on the mundane topic would be preferable to hijacking the original conversation into an exchange of abstract treatises dependent on jargon decipherable only to those who have memorized all 37 titles on an esoteric reading list.

It's still possible then, that if any among the academically-advanced ere-ers have the heart of a simple teacher, a meaningful passing of ideas back (and forth, perhaps) from the tip of the spear might occur. If not, the 99% here are a pretty damn competent bunch of folks in the aggregate, and like engineers they can take what of the theory is actually usable on a small/individual scale and develop its application in real lives.

Most people don't like hierarchies and segregation, and that would rely on a lot of individual accountability (also unpopular) but it's the only path forward that I can see that might make a meaningful difference that doesn't require persistent/time-consuming and somewhat heavy-handed moderation (a la a site like bogleheads.org).

I don't think we'll ever not see people coming, staying for a time, then moving on. But maybe fewer cases of hard feeling would result. No online forum can be all things for all people.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9369
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@bsog:

I think your hourglass analogy was brilliant, but perhaps neglectful of the note that once one passes through the narrow bit at Level 7, and also likely lands independently in unique realm defined by unique lifestyle, eventually the desire to be of greater influence at Level 8 may manifest. So, maybe at that point perspective alters and transforms the hourglass into something more like a stretchy Klein bottle morphed with a percolator. If you think about how any transformative idea (the earth is round!, humans should not enslave each other!) does eventually achieve general acceptance, it would be kind of like Wheaton levels flattening over time/under influence. IOW, the orders of magnitude would degrade given boundaried definition of concept or problem.

horsewoman
Posts: 659
Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:11 am

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by horsewoman »

Most of the discussions in the "upper level threads" are way over my head, so I skip them or skim them but do not engage in them. I also often need a few days to grapple with a lot of stuff that is written on the forum in my head, so once I might be able to contribute, the ship has sailed and someone else has already made the point or I realized that my point was not relevant or plain wrong. But the grappling taught me something, or at least I used my brain for something more challenging that day than reading Harry Potter Fanfiction ;) so I come out ahead, wheter I engaged or not.

But I really don't understand why this needs to be a topic to argue about. No one is forced to read and/or participate in all topics.
@IlliniDave makes a valid point regarding dragging discussions down... If it is over your pay grade, skip it or do the required reading to get there. If you enjoy the fix it logs, fix your own stuff and share so that those threads stay interesting.

My analogy is music - it's pretty frustrating to play with other musicians if they "speak another language" - like classical trained musicians vs. folk musicians. Very different skill sets, goals and attitudes. I have and will work with classicaly trained people, but it is so much more fun and productive with the folk crowd - instant connection.
So I can totally relate to the fact that the super brainy ones here want to communicate and be understood in their own language. Reading @daylens instinctual dump is like a intellectual LSD trip - I can enjoy it without needing to understand it. It's endlessly fascinating how other people's minds work.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9369
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

For what it’s worth, I would like to once again note for the record that volume of posts is not necessarily correlated with competence. If you seek access to successful Sun Tzu like strategy, you should read Jacob’s book and posts. Only read my posts if you seek to be distracted or lightly amused or Schadenfruded by variety of likely to fail Lucille Ball like schemes. IOW, Jacob’s words ->Direct track to FI , My babble->Rickety sign on side of road pointing towards bumpy path detour to World’s Largest Hairball!!

Yes, most of you are thinking “Yeah, long ago made abundantly clear.”, but maybe a few of the kids needed this note, and my love for debate and discussion might foster illusion that I take myself seriously. However, I do take issues related to climate change, resource depletion, freedom, and personal development and empowerment seriously, thus this cautionary note.

OTCW
Posts: 437
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:55 am

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by OTCW »

I've read this entire thread (parts of it multiple times), and I have no idea what people are arguing about in it.

UrbanHomesteader
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:02 pm

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by UrbanHomesteader »

As a decade long mostly lurker, I just want to say I love you guys.

The forums have been the spark for a lot of deep introspection for me over the years. It is so fascinating to see how different people come at the challenges of living.

Lately I have been most intrigued by the the journals of 7w5, Axelheist, mooretrees, la llorona, JenAR, erytu. If only there was sufficient time to read them all!

User avatar
unemployable
Posts: 1007
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:36 am
Location: Homeless

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by unemployable »

Say what you want about hourglasses and Wheaton levels, but I leave for awhile and come back to see the same 20-30 people posting to each other with a handful of others on the periphery who probably won't be around in a few months. Same as it's been since I started reading here.

I feel like I have all the systems theory I need and can make use of. Money itself is ever closer to becoming a solved problem. I prefer the hard-fact subjects (housing, travel, aging/family issues, the most cost-effective way to do thing X) to the meta ones.

I can see the gatekeeping aspect of the Wheaton structure. I've gatekept once or twice on these boards and regret it. Jacob can gatekeep all he wants though, it's his board and he's Level 10 as far as I'm concerned.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15906
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by jacob »

Ideally (because then I don't have to do anything :-P ) "gatekeeping" happens automagically at the individual level http://www.albion.com/netiquette/rule3.html

This rule of course stands in contrast to the community level: viewtopic.php?p=244860#p244860 ... which forms the tone of the forum.

But if you think of community behavior as an emergent feature, both resolve as one creates the other.

The problem with moderating or any kind of forcing function is that sometimes someone (maybe 1 in 20) will have a chip on their shoulder or be on some kind of mission to change the world (and this place) in their image/according to their strongly held values. Then self-regulated gatekeeping fails. (Because the community level goes unseen.) This is what's causing the tone of the forum to flip back and forth every time we have a crisis.

This is fine to a degree---it's a creative force that causes evolution---except...

This forum, ERE, ... is already part of the equivalent of the ecology of a greater system of other forums, blogs, facebook groups, tweeters, podcasts,... It no longer needs to be everything to everyone like it was the case in 2010.

With mature systems (this is 2021) everything is a funnel. That's the ecology level.

The "most frequent posters" here comprise a culture (usually recognized as "people who are FIRE but talk about everything but FIRE") who are breaking insight (evolving new ideas).

The concrete/mundane facts are already internalized so we don't need to cover questions here like "I have $1.7M, when can I retire?", "which is the best place to open a broker account?", "here's my budget, please post comments", "my stocks are down 2% today, should I sell?", "how much do you guys pay for X?". "Poll: What's your retirement goal? $500k? 1M? 2M? ...10M?", "Why is there a trading halt on XYZ ETF this very hour?", "Is ABC a good stock or is DEF better?", "why is my brokers cash account showing negative?", "can anyone explain asset allocation to me?"---yeah that was long---which take up 95% of the space on neophyte social media.

Before politics was banned here, there was a mix of journals and people mainly coming to comment on politics but only coincidentally interacting with journals. However, culture wars and disinformation caused more political pressure than I deemed worthwhile (signal<noise), so I've shitcanned it for now, maybe I'll revisit [politics] in 2022---I still consider the ban temporary. So now, we're journals only and meta-analysis has taken over as an outlet for those who already internalized the day to day stuff.

I think it's worthwhile to maintain this [forum] for the strivers and seekers---those who climb mountains because they're there---as something some would move towards insofar they think there's more to living that "asset allocation and frugality" but also as a space to move beyond insofar we think there's more to living than "systems theory".

With ERE being part of a greater ecology now, I'm strongly opposed to breaking this chain. Hence Chesterton's fence. I don't bother with a lot anymore, but I do still bother with this.

User avatar
Jean
Posts: 1890
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by Jean »

I find the forum much more enjoyable with thé total ban on politics than it was with the previous situation where you would arbitrarly chose to which standard of proof opinions had to bé backed by. Being stopep from explaining why someone was wrong was very frustrating. Thanks a lot for the décision. I Wonder if in a near future, politics will have enough practical to make it worth discussions again despite thé trouble. I Hope not.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15906
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by jacob »

@Jean - It isn't arbitrary. There is always a consistent recognition that 1) opinions had to be rooted in objective facts, and 2) not all opinions are equally useful. Different issues trigger different reactions.

And these constraints are not compatible with disinformation nor with strong postmodernism. Therefore the immune reaction towards the standard culture war scripts are strong albeit for different reasons.

They'll remain this way even if politics is turned back on again at a future point.
I'm not going to entertain yet another battleground. Culture warriors should go do some shadow work.

Me shutting politics off was just the easier solution to a job I don't want.

User avatar
Mister Imperceptible
Posts: 1669
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:18 pm

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

So do you guys think we could get along if we lived in a Dutch-style car-free bicycle-friendly city? Let’s give it the old college try!

User avatar
Jean
Posts: 1890
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by Jean »

@mi, actually, yes. The numerous political disagreements i have with other people in my city Never really hurt our hability to get along. It's not dutch or carfree, but there is something to it that makes disagreements possible.

Aspirant
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:57 am
Location: 65 deg north

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by Aspirant »

I don't have much say in this conversation, but I'd like to give an opinion from the outer fringes of ERE-sphere.

I think Jacob needs to start climbing other mountains. Meet other gurus and find the stimulation from there. The upper level guys can take on more moderation responsibility. Jacob has built this methodological framework and maybe some of the frustration comes from the feeling that it is lonely at the top. But talking to other gurus might provide insight to crank up WL 11 or something. We could return him the favor and provide him the time and peace of mind to free his time to more fruitful efforts.

The forum is a smörgåsbord. It is pick and choose. The bits can fit in the lentil soup recipes and methodological WL-meta-framework discussions. The space doesn't run out, but needs traffic signs so everyone can navigate.

I don't claim to be high in WL ladder (see journal stuck on the basics for 2 yrs), but I come here for those philosophical conversations. They stimulate me.

radamfi
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:46 pm

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by radamfi »

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:49 pm
So do you guys think we could get along if we lived in a Dutch-style car-free bicycle-friendly city? Let’s give it the old college try!
Dutch cities are indeed the most bicycle friendly in the world. But there is no "car free" Dutch city. Dutch people use bikes a lot but they also use cars a lot.

User avatar
Mister Imperceptible
Posts: 1669
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:18 pm

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by Mister Imperceptible »


ducknald_don
Posts: 321
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:31 pm
Location: Oxford, UK

Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by ducknald_don »

radamfi wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:21 am
Dutch cities are indeed the most bicycle friendly in the world. But there is no "car free" Dutch city. Dutch people use bikes a lot but they also use cars a lot.
I was actually quite surprised how low the average mileage is for Dutch cyclists, if my memory is correct it's less than a mile a day.

Post Reply