A Jacob Mention

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Alphaville
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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by Alphaville »

white belt wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:36 pm
It's more accurate to say not everyone wants to be Paul Krugman (and many would argue that having your name on the cover of an introductory economics textbook is not deeply serious technical work). Some people like to digest complex work to make it more accessible to the masses. Some people like to do cutting edge work that pushes the boundaries of current knowledge. Those are almost never the same people due to the fact that they each require an immense amount of time and energy, but also the fact that they each favor specific personality and intellectual traits. The best thinkers aren't usually the best teachers and vice versa. We need both great thinkers and great teachers in the world, but trying to argue that everyone needs to be both is ridiculous.

Additionally, there are levels to knowledge. As Jacob has linked multiple times before, check out the Wired series on explaining complex topics at 5 different levels. I don't care who you are, but a 5 year old isn't going to understand music theory on the same level as Herbie Hancock no matter how great the teacher is.
ive seen that series, and the supposed top level is actually the most accessible, totally devoid of jargon and centering on scifi-like scenarios that could be made into blockbuster movies. the concepts are highly graspable and intuitive.

now i get that some people may not be able to explain things clearly, ok, just say so. or maybe some people dont want to explain things, and so, ok, just don't try. but turning on your audience... if that works for you i guess that works for you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Alphaville
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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by Alphaville »

jacob wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:34 pm
We do not do it by asking questions. We do it by answering them.

I'm just slowly realizing that a forum is not the best format to do so.
ok--for me, as a member of the western tradition, philosophy and science begin with questions--the answers come only later. and when the answer chafes under further questioning then it's a sign that something needs rework--whether it's in the results or in the original research question.

the people who ask you questions about what you're doing are not your enemy. they could in fact be a useful tool. but if you can't help to feel importuned or antagonized by them for whatever reason, then yes, it becomes an unpleasant social interaction.

anyway, since my mind has an inquisitive nature, and i'm wired to ask rather than assent, i'll just tie some loose ends in my threads and move on so you can have peace.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by Quadalupe »

I think this has been discussed before, and in my perception your and Jacob's definition of his intended audience differ quite a lot.

If I am not mistaken, Jacob (and others here) is willing to help people who help themselves. Imagine two scenarios:

1. If someone says: "hey, I read about concept X, and I don't get it. Can someone explain?", it's drive-by questioning. It is unclear what they don't understand exactly, what they tried and, more importantly, how much skin in the game they have. This makes answering questions hard ('where should I begin?') and unattractive ('why didn't they show their work? Didn't they do any? How do I know that they won't ride off in the sunset after receiving The Answer?').

2. If someone says: "hey, I read about concept X, and I don't get it quite yet. My current best interpretation is Y, but that would be in conflict with A,B and C. I read about related concept X', but I think that didn't apply because of reason Z", it's a more collaborative kind of question. It is clear(er) that they have grappled with the stuff and they are clear on why they don't understand something (show the work/reasoning). It also shows that they are committed to this subject, so it is more worthwhile to invest the time to type up an answer.

Something that I had to learn is that if I didn't know the answer to something, I shouldn't immediately ask for an answer or an explanation. Instead, I should try to find the answer myself, either by searching or reasoning.

Finally, I think that some of the hard concepts can only be understood and learned through the hard work one puts in (Experiental capital, see http://www.appleseedpermaculture.com/8- ... f-capital/ mentioned elsewhere). One does not become a kung fu master by watching kung fu films or asking Bruce Lee for some hot tips.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

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Alphaville wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:49 pm
ive seen that series, and the supposed top level is actually the most accessible, totally devoid of jargon and centering on scifi-like scenarios that could be made into blockbuster movies. the concepts are highly graspable and intuitive.

now i get that some people may not be able to explain things clearly, ok, just say so. or maybe some people dont want to explain things, and so, ok, just don't try. but turning on your audience... if that works for you i guess that works for you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Or maybe what you are interpreting is from a layman's perspective and thus a layman's conclusion while 2 experts are talking? The words they are using may appear simple, but the meaning is quite different when taking into account foundational knowledge.

As an example, let's say there are 2 priests/monks/religious experts having a discussion about scripture. A layperson walks up (maybe they are a member of the same religion or maybe they are atheist). The man listens to the discussion, hearing many familiar words and ideas. He is surprised that the priests are using common language with minimal jargon. The discussion is complete and he walks away assuming that he grasps the ideas and has an understanding on par with the priests (let's call that X). If after the discussion, before walking away he were to instead tell the priests "Oh I get what you are saying; of course X!" both priests would look at him like he was crazy. "No we weren't talking about X at all, you misunderstand. You should really take more time studying and working on foundational knowledge Y and Z if you want a better understanding." The man then responds "No thanks, I think you guys just need to do a better job of explaining it to me."

I think you can see where I'm going with this. I'm sure you can think of many examples from your own life where you were having an advanced conversation of a subject with another person and a layman interlocutor took the completely wrong conclusions. Similarly, you can also probably think of times when you wish someone would just read the book you recommended to help them instead of asking you the same 20 questions.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

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Quadalupe wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:14 pm
If I am not mistaken, Jacob (and others here) is willing to help people who help themselves.
well, i don't know what it is for everyone but i didn't come here to ask @jacob for help. that is a very big assumption to make about someone and their motives.

as far as i can tell none of us here is perfect. we all struggle, we all suffer, we all have problems. i don't put jacob on a pedestal and i perceive him as having problems just like any other mortal.

among other things he complains that people misunderstand and mischaracterize his work, that they appropriate it for commercial ends, that they reduce it to meaninglesness, etc.

ok, fine, so, for me, the agency question is "what are you doing wrong?" not "how stupid are the muggles?" where are your ideas unclear/ confusing/ misleading/ etc? can the presentation or terminology be improved? is there something that needs clarification?

but ok, if he can do no wrong and needs no help and knows everything and it's everyone else's fault then... i got nothing to offer this group, please carry on.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by jacob »

Alphaville wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:08 pm
ok--for me, as a member of the western tradition, philosophy and science begin with questions--the answers come only later. and when the answer chafes under further questioning then it's a sign that something needs rework--whether it's in the results or in the original research question.
The reason it's chafing is that your questions have already been answered before and sometimes several times before. It requires vastly less effort asking questions than it does in answering them. It essentially pushes all the work onto who is answering them. What's happening here is not engaging in the western tradition of inquire to push the envelope, at least not most of the time. Since the answers are already known and found elsewhere---sometimes in the same thread and even on the same page---it's more like the western tradition of that one, there's always one, college student who continuously knocks on the professor's door because it's easier for him than to attend the classes or review the notes.

The problem is that when this is done publicly the rapid fire "Just askin'"-approach easily overwhelms the capacity to answer the sheer quantity of questions not all of which are good ones. This makes it appear as if "we're actually doing science" and that "the science is somewhat unclear" even if all it takes it paying more attention.

That is why I don't like it. To me the constant inquiries do not look like they're done in good faith---that is with the intention of learning---or at least they're asked w/o considering the wider (third-person) impression that they leave. I'm thus objecting to the rapid-fire "TL;DR - Have question" method which has all the appearance of what I now realize is an unintentional Gish Gallop.

I say unintentional because believing that one has an intuitive grasp of a discipline after listening to two experts discuss some scifi-applications is like believing that Grey's Anatomy is a substitute for Netter's Anatomy when doing surgery; and I don't believe that.

But yeah, this does make me realize that my "pop-light" explanation of ERE requires some work. The thing is, like white belt covered, is that I'm mainly used to dealing with what I hope to become future experts and not so much the TED talk crowd. These are two separate skillsets and two different presentations.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by rref »

the people who ask you questions about what you're doing are not your enemy. they could in fact be a useful tool.
Sincerely please post less. I chose to unsubscribe from the forum RSS due to the volume of your writing.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by Alphaville »

white belt wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:22 pm
I'm sure you can think of many examples from your own life where you were having an advanced conversation of a subject with another person and a layman interlocutor took the completely wrong conclusions.
well, in the first place i try not to have expert discussions in front of people who don't know my subject, or who don't speak the language i'm speaking.

but if a non-expert joins the conversation the i give them the recap,or the summary, or the simplified answer in layman's terms.

and similarly if i'm having a multilingual conversation i turn around to the non-speaker and translate. i just did this with someone last week in fact.

but also as i said in a previous post im not here to "receive".

anyway, besides, generally speaking i don't buy elitist nonsense. yes, some people are better at some things than others. and that's all there is.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by daylen »

Ah! Here lies the root.. this forum and ERE are not all things.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by jacob »

Alphaville wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:30 pm
among other things he complains that people misunderstand and mischaracterize his work, that they appropriate it for commercial ends, that they reduce it to meaninglesness, etc.

ok, fine, so, for me, the agency question is "what are you doing wrong?" not "how stupid are the muggles?" where are your ideas unclear/ confusing/ misleading/ etc? can the presentation or terminology be improved? is there something that needs clarification?
The "problem with the muggles" is essentially this problem viewtopic.php?p=244608#p244608 which was answered <1 day ago.

People hear that ERE is awesome and amazing (FIRE at 30, living on $7000), so rather than waste time with Dave Ramsey or Suze Orman, and WL1, 2, 3, ... 6 why not just start with ERE? That would save a lot of time, right?

Same way that you think that you become adept in astrophysics by listening to two experts talking about wormholes.

The problem is that learning doesn't work that way. Attempts will be superfrustrating. People will project whatever little they understand of "the ERE object" onto to their limited subjective understanding. E.g. WL1 will see it as lentil soup. WL2 will see it as failure to find one's passion. WL3 as too little money. And so on.

Basically only WL6 and WL7 will see ERE for what it is. THAT is the audience. Just like calculus is the audience for 11th graders and not 5th graders.

This is why I think the problem is with the unintended audience. I'm rather confident in this because the counter arguments/objections are repetitive and predictable AND because I'm instantly able to have deep conversations with people at WL7 and above even if we haven't previously interacted.

Now, there are people who commercialize and popularize. We have discussed this 2 or 3 times already. I'm not that person. My failure to communicate basically happen when I failed to properly screen whoever I'm talking with, i.e. thinking they were ready when they weren't. E.g. giving a WL5 interview to a WL2 show, say. There are two ways to fix this. 1) Only give WL2 advice in public. 2) Make the forum private subject to some entry barrier---this is how most schools function.

Of course this explanation will be impossible to accept insofar one axiomatically holds that everything can be understood by everyone.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

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rref wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:42 pm
Sincerely please post less. I chose to unsubscribe from the forum RSS due to the volume of your writing.
noted, thanks. will soon fix!

jacob wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:32 pm
I say unintentional because believing that one has an intuitive grasp of a discipline after listening to two experts discuss some scifi-applications is like believing that Grey's Anatomy is a substitute for Netter's Anatomy when doing surgery; and I don't believe that.
where did i say i was an expert? that's a very funny accusation to throw. such a loaded assumption.

all i said about that video was that their concepts were highly graspable. that makes me an expert in all the ins and outs of their technology, their procedures, their machinery, their experimental protocols, any of that.

for me as i recall i think the college level was less accessible because it was discussed in terms of specific enzimes i'm not familiar with. but past that level the focus was on ethics.

so, while i don't know in detail the specific technology they were discussing, what they were saying was not gibberish to me. so if i were a in a comgressional panel looking to regulate thar industry, i'm pretty sure those 2 people could explain things to me in an intelligible way.

i feel however if you were questioned by a congressional panel you'd use your response time to categorize the questioners as below your comprehension level and how they're not sufficiently developed to understand you.

and no, the video does not answer the muggles question and it doesn't answer the question of whether your model is ideological or open ended.

obviously you have found analogies to your model in various developmental models. this is promising! but you cannot conclude from the analogy that you're modeling the development of a particular entity--maybe you're modeling the steps of an evolution towards something you don't know.

in biology at least (you referred me to a psychological model, i see that as a subset of biology) the developed form of an organism is know. but the end form of evolution is not known. nevertheless one can reconstruct the evolution of an organism from their development.

yes yes, everybody can understand what a developmental model is, we don't need to be patronized with mentions of "trigonometry".

my question in the other thread was meant to ask if you were certain you were tracking an actual development towards a know end, and not an open evolution to the unknown. because your model, while analogous, is not other people's models about something else. is ere "an ego"? you never actually responded. that youtube link, lol.

also you didn't answer the matter than an evolution is not a design (except for the intelligent design crowd). conceptual clarity is important for understanding. development, evolution and design are different things. this is why the title retirement keeps having unwanted effects. but if you want to keep blaming misunderstandings on "the other," that's totally your prerogative. same as the renaissance "man" business--it's always their fault. go watch a youtube!

anyway, this will never be settled, i agree. i think we have different conceptions of humanity. i learned a lot though, thanks for the experience.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by jennypenny »

I don't think there's any obligation on jacob's part to make sure everyone understands is ideas. I'm just grateful that he shares them, and the fact that he's still here answering people's questions at all is a gift to anyone who wants to learn more about ERE, especially given all the shit he took in the beginning.

It seems a little ungracious to criticize him for not answering every one of your questions when he's probably spent hours of his own personal time answering many of them.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by Alphaville »

jennypenny wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:52 pm
I don't think there's any obligation on jacob's part to make sure everyone understands is ideas. I'm just grateful that he shares them, and the fact that he's still here answering people's questions at all is a gift to anyone who wants to learn more about ERE, especially given all the shit he took in the beginning.

It seems a little ungracious to criticize him for not answering every one of your questions when he's probably spent hours of his own personal time answering many of them.
again, i wasn't trying to ask him for anything for my benefit.

i was trying to help him clarify his articulation which i understand shall remain esoteric by design (or evolution. or development.).

im not interested in "ascending" that ladder but thought i could help the guy communicate, like when i tried offering video advice for his talks.

anyway please no more with me/about me. i wanna go now, and you want me to go too. peace be with you, etc.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by jennypenny »

Alphaville wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:59 pm
anyway please no more with me/about me. i wanna go now, and you want me to go too. peace be with you, etc.
Yeah, but you were trying to shit on jacob on your way out the door. My post wasn't for your benefit anyway ... I wanted it on the record that some people disagree with your assessment of jacob's time and contributions.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by daylen »

Evolution is development with extra steps.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by Alphaville »

jennypenny wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:18 pm
Yeah, but you were trying to shit on jacob on your way out the door. My post wasn't for your benefit anyway ... I wanted it on the record that some people disagree with your assessment of jacob's time and contributions.
i don't pretend to be on the majority here, and this is his forum, and the record speaks for itself, people are here for him.

i was just trying to explain that my questioning wasnt at attempt to ask for anything--i was trying to help, in my own way (rejected, ok, i accept that). also to note i've performed many defenses of @jacob as well, and they are also recorded, so i have not been disloyal. it's just that this particular one is a dealbreaker for me. sorry. ok. bye.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by Alphaville »

daylen wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:22 pm
Evolution is development with extra steps.
"ontogeny recapitulates philogeny"(more or less)

be well daylen 🖖

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by daylen »

Not at all actually. Those extra steps are critical and can be seen as dependent or independent of the past.. depends on how you look. Hence why any single formulation is limited and completeness cannot be demanded of holons. Thinking in parts/wholes will leave you with just that.. parts of wholes.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by Gilberto de Piento »

Alphaville wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:26 pm
i don't pretend to be on the majority here, and this is his forum, and the record speaks for itself, people are here for him.
I'm not here for Jacob. I like his ideas but the forum on the whole is interesting to me and a place for me to get a kind of socializing I dont get anywhere else. I haven't put him on a pedestal. Some of your early posts (from what I remember, I didn't go digging through what you've written) make me think maybe you did put him and ERE on a pedestal.

I won't say dont go, you should do what is right for you, but I think maybe you could let this cool down a bit before doing the "I'm done here and I'm never coming back" thing (it happens every six months on average with someone). You've contributed a lot and helped people in significant ways. Don't be offended that someone isn't taking your advice even if that person is the guru.

More global comment not to Alpha: I'm not so sure "ERE as a movement," ERE is going to change the world, Wheaton levels are a thing to ascend, you're doing it wrong if you want to stop at the MMM level, is the right way to go. Let people use the ERE ideas as a toolbox, dont make it a movement or religion. If that is the right path, I suggest that Jacob is a deep thinker and not a popularizer. He doesn't seem interested in that role and isn't the right personality or skill set (that's ok, one person doesn't need to be everything). If he was going to try to make it blow up he would have by now. He made a choice not to, there's even a post where he passes the mantle to MMM (who did all the right marketing moves to make a different, related, bigger, simpler, more accessible, cooler sounding, watered down, more enabling, commercialized version - there's a separate thread here). I could be wrong, just random thoughts.

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Re: A Jacob Mention

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Alphaville sometimes reminds me of my youngest extremely bright and verbal sibling* whom I would sometimes pick up and place on top of the refrigerator so that she would stop pestering me, but...

...I believe that I have read much more of the ERE curriculum than most members of this forum, and I do still have questions, and some of those questions are difficult to fully articulate, because often arising from intuition based on my own experiences or lived perspectives.

I also fully comprehend that reading is not doing. For instance, actually failing at creating a functional swale system on my permaculture project was a very ah-hah experience. My lifelong style has been read, read, read, read... do!

Speaking of holons, one of my ongoing confusions is the artificial boundary between individual, household, tribe, community, country when it comes to influence over spending/energy usage. For instance, I will pick on IlliniDave because I know he is a sturdy indestructible good sport, and note that I could couch surf on his lifestyle with very little additional spending or energy usage. The problem would be the reduction in our autonomy. As noted in “ERE”, “Retrosuburbia “, and “The Permaculture Handbook”, learning to live with other people and share space and tools is pretty much #1 with a bullet when it comes to reducing expense/energy usage, but the practice of measuring in terms of autonomous economic decision makers, or head of household level of influence, seems contrary to this.

The development through evolution of any system requires energy, and this is certainly true of development in human adulthood. If a reasonable degree of autonomy (room of one’s own) is necessary for self-actualization, and the establishment and maintenance of autonomy is not without expense, doesn’t it make as much sense to wonder if there are enough resources available to provide for self-actualization (or even just “professionalism”)of the global population as to calculate that there is not enough sink in which to dump our current waste stream of CO2 etc.? Is the fact that due to increased autonomy of females (yay!) the vast majority of the humans projected to be born by 2050 will start their lives under the most abject current economic conditions likely to increase the overall global cost towards adult development/self-actualization?




*Became a very successful public defender whose negotiation style was described as “bad boyfriend.”

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