Digital Minimalism?

Simple living, extreme early retirement, becoming and being wealthy, wisdom, praxis, personal growth,...
Green Pimble
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:16 pm

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by Green Pimble »

@analyticalengine
@ellarose24

Thank you both for that exchange, I found it valuable. Hearing that others find the exposure to 'doom' (climate change etc.) to be depressing on this forum is a good perspective. Thinking about climate change or collapse gets me down, and I don't know how to deal with that yet.

I have tried to adopt digital minimalism into my life after reading the book too, and found myself met with both successes and failures.

Successes: deleted facebook without a second thought. Felt good about that. Minimised reddit use. Don't have any other social media.
Failures/difficulties: still spend a good chunk of time every week gaming, and visiting game-related forum, but I found when I cut out gaming, game-forum, and this forum completely, I spiral into depressive boredom. I think I have not yet developed enough skills to entertain myself without some external help.

Myakka
Posts: 122
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:39 am

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by Myakka »

@Green Pimble

News exposure is highly correlated with feeling depressed. Therefore it can be good for one's mental health to limit one's exposure. (There is a cost of missing something important, but the really important things usually are hard to miss even if you aren't paying attention.) It can also help to seek warm fuzzies after distressing information. They are the proper cure -- playing games is just distracting. (But sometimes distraction is the best I can manage at the moment -- so it isn't completely ruled out.)

Minimalism isn't about quitting the whole thing anyway; its about consciously using what is really helpful in your life and removing the rest. From that stand point what you have done sounds like it is fully inline with that notion and therefore a success.

AnalyticalEngine
Posts: 949
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:57 am

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

@Green Pimble - I've had that same experience with depressive boredom whenever I try to cut out the electronic use that I'm really actually addicted to. (ie, Discord) Stuff that I don't really use that much (ie reddit) I can delete without thought, but I do experience this void of depressive boredom when I cut out other things. It's hard to know if this is a sign of a true behavioral addiction or the fact that I just don't have much else going on in my life right now. I suppose the advice here is to add other activities instead of trying to limit, but I've never pulled either off that well.

_bb_
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:58 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by _bb_ »

Interesting topic. Adding the book to my reading list.

I struggle with this as well, Youtube has become my current digital vice. Personally, I am trying to work towards internalizing the thought of my computer/smartphone being versatile tools not sources of entertainment. I have yet to break the mold, but it is a state I am working toward. With how my life is currently set up right now the barriers to digital consumption are too low.

I'm trying these ideas out:
- Setting physical boundaries around where technology is used - ie no phones in bed / lounging on the couch
- When bored at work, stepping away from the computer instead of visiting a 'click-bait' article or scrolling LinkedIn
- Finding replacement activities that allow me to produce rather than consume - draw, play guitar
- If I want to learn more about a topic, go to the library for a book rather than google it.

ertyu
Posts: 2893
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by ertyu »

I am not a digital minimalist, but I recently had the thought that i depend on the internet for my entertainment, information, and social contacts in pretty much as unrelisient a way as a salaryman depends on his job income. If the powers that be become stricter on copyright, if paywalls keep going up, and each and every platform becomes just as cluttered with ads as a tv channel, i'm fucked...

Scott 2
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by Scott 2 »

_bb_ wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 12:39 pm
Youtube has become my current digital vice.
Understanding what the youtube business model implies, has helped me to step away.

They use algorithms to push videos. What you are shown is data driven, based upon metrics youtube is trying to optimize. The specific goal might be duration of engagement, aggregate add revenue, whatever. The algorithms optimize against a statistical model of the user. Human nature being what it is, the most effective patterns tend to create negative feelings. No malice, just data driven optimization.

Ads are sold to precipitate behavior change in the audience. So, using Youtube means: engaging with an AI whose goal is making me feel bad, to change how I live, so someone else can make money. No thanks.

Jaron Lanier gives a good overview of this model in his latest book. It's shorter and quicker to parse than digital minimalism:

Book - http://www.jaronlanier.com/tenarguments.html
Overview - http://www.monkeymagic.net/2019/12/30/j ... d-machine/

Netflix's Social Dilemma also gives the perspective, though it's more targeted to Facebook's model:

https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224

I can't recommend the book (too wordy), but Nicholas Carr makes a strong argument in The Shallows that using media like this rewires our brain. If you buy into his points on neuroplasticity, the impact on one's ability for more focused work is far too high.

https://www.amazon.com/Shallows-What-In ... 0393357821

white belt
Posts: 1452
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by white belt »

You can mitigate some of the effectiveness of the YouTube AI by not creating an account, using a VPN, and using something that deletes cookies. Not a perfect solution by any means, but the algorithm will have to go from square 1 every time you visit the site.

User avatar
Alphaville
Posts: 3611
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by Alphaville »

weird, i once binged on the sopranos for something like 18 hours, but watching youtube is generally a massive chore. even when we try for just music videos it gets ultrarepetitive.

this is me watching youtube: "come on, come on, say it already!" while i wave my hands for them to go, like a new york traffic cop.

most youtubers come across to me as massive narcissists screaming for attention. i always make sure to like the ones that are short and to the point and preferrably show no faces. 120 seconds to change a bottom bracket: great!

Scott 2
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by Scott 2 »

white belt wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 6:41 pm
but the algorithm will have to go from square 1 every time you visit the site.
I'd put money on YouTube being better at identifying me, than I am at hiding from their tracking. The device ID on my android phone. My browser fingerprint. Etc. Staying anonymous on the internet is a hard problem.

Even if they can't identify me specifically, I suspect they can lump my zero information user into an effective category quickly. That's enough to start negatively manipulating my behavior. Their AI has the advantage of billions of user sessions, unlimited and continuous experimentation. It's a formidable opponent.

Dream of Freedom
Posts: 753
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:58 pm
Location: Nebraska, US

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by Dream of Freedom »

Why don't you just use the subscription section? Only the channels you already subscribe to will show up. No algorithm.

white belt
Posts: 1452
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by white belt »

Scott 2 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:26 pm
I'd put money on YouTube being better at identifying me, than I am at hiding from their tracking. The device ID on my android phone. My browser fingerprint. Etc. Staying anonymous on the internet is a hard problem.
Well you’re talking about using an operating system made by the same company that owns YouTube, so I suspect they have a lot of ways to suck up your data. I think there are also certain plug-ins or sites out there to view YouTube videos without having to actually visit the site, although I haven’t tried any of them.

Personally, beyond the basic privacy steps I mentioned in my previous post, I don’t worry too much about YouTube AI. I go on YouTube for a specific purpose (usually educational or DIY videos). It’s a tool and it adds way more value to my life than it costs me. The principle of free still applies like anything else (if it’s free, you/your data are the product).

_bb_
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:58 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by _bb_ »

@Scott2 - thank you for the links and write up I'm adding Lanier's book to my list. The BUMMER concept is alarming, I'm looking forward to learning more.
Dream of Freedom wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:40 pm
Why don't you just use the subscription section? Only the channels you already subscribe to will show up. No algorithm.
Good point, but I also get sucked in via the sidebar. I was investigating an RSS feed, so I could only watch a selection of the channels I subscribe to and not have to go to the site. I haven't spent too much time with this just yet, but I will get back to the group if I find anything. I think there is too much really valuable DIY/How-To/interesting science information available on youtube to cut it out completely.
Alphaville wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:09 pm
weird, i once binged on the sopranos for something like 18 hours, but watching youtube is generally a massive chore.
I was thinking about foregoing TV and leaving movies as a source of entertainment. I think a lot of TV shows are amazing and incredibly well done, but I'm realizing how much time one must invest to get through an entire series. I'm wondering if watching a movie a week (or something like that) will scratch the same itch.

white belt
Posts: 1452
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by white belt »

_bb_ wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 9:14 am
I was thinking about foregoing TV and leaving movies as a source of entertainment. I think a lot of TV shows are amazing and incredibly well done, but I'm realizing how much time one must invest to get through an entire series. I'm wondering if watching a movie a week (or something like that) will scratch the same itch.
I use TV/movies/video games recreationally; I will partake in them with other people but almost never by myself (just like alcohol). This turns them into more of a social event and keeps me from sinking a lot of of my personal time into them. I also don’t watch any series except the occasional comedy series, which doesn’t really require much emotional investment or chronological order. Movies once every other week or so are also social/dating events.

I also don’t have any (video) streaming subscriptions, although I believe my Spotify subscription gives me Hulu for free but I’ve never used it. A side effect is that it can be difficult to relate to the masses since a typical topic of day to day conversation is what happened in the latest popular show.

User avatar
Alphaville
Posts: 3611
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by Alphaville »

_bb_ wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 9:14 am
I was thinking about foregoing TV and leaving movies as a source of entertainment. I think a lot of TV shows are amazing and incredibly well done, but I'm realizing how much time one must invest to get through an entire series. I'm wondering if watching a movie a week (or something like that) will scratch the same itch.
ive always been a big reader, and i think that some tv is so well done these days it has reached the level of literature, and i will not shun it from my life.

i once spent part of most evenings for 2 whole months reading anna karenina, and timothy leary boasted in his autobiography of spending a summer reading ulysses--i actually took a college course to read ulysses (people pay good money for that!). in our veblen world, all that literary engagement is seen as honorific activity, divorced from labor...

tv used to be garbage for the stupids, but it's not always the case anymore these days. there is some really sophisticated tv writing now, illuminating many dark corners of social and individual life. people who before would have been novelists now go on to write tv. same as people who would have been rocket scientists now go into finance or neuroscience. every era has its dominant fields. for athenian democracy their politics were negotiated in the theatre. today we have television.

as for tv vs movies, movies are structure like short stories, whereas tv allows the wide scope of a novel. different formats really. also i find that tv fits better the time constrained requirements of the workweek. a movie requires booking a large chunk of uninterrupted time: 2, 3 hours...

but regarding time... i'd rather invest my time in leisure than in labor. why perform more labor than is necessary? :lol:

then again everyone's idea of leisure is different. e.g. some people would rather go kayaking than read a novel. so yeah, if that's you, drop the book, go kayaking. but the whole point of leisure is that it's not mandatory but voluntarily enjoyed. maybe this is a long way to say... don't ruin your enjoyments with guilt?

Crusader
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:16 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by Crusader »

I don't know if this counts, but in an attempt to save money, I cancelled my phone plan and only use it in a prepaid credit manner (for the SMS here and there) and no data. When I do need to speak on the phone, I have a free local VOIP line. I haven't looked back. Google Maps works great in offline mode, unlike before, and podcasts can be downloaded, and if I really have to look something up on the Internet while I am out, free WiFi is everywhere - Starbucks, McDonald's... I don't obsessively check my phone when I am out. And this saves $50+ per month. My phone is also always on silent so that I only use it when I want (when I pick it up).

ertyu
Posts: 2893
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by ertyu »

In the past, when employed full time I've canceled internet and cable at home but kept a 25G/month phone plan. I can download what needs downloading at work or at coffeeshops, and I tether my phone to laptop for the rest. 25G isn't little at all, some months I'd not be able to use it up without making any effort at all to be sparing with my internet use. This would obviously mean no netflix, etc. but rather a vpn.

Scott 2
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by Scott 2 »

I'm not an absolutist. I will still watch a video on youtube, if it helps further my goal, despite understanding their business model. Signal to noise has become a big concern. Video is my medium of last resort. Podcasts aren't too far behind. I used to constantly engage in both, especially from free sources. Now, I strongly prefer to pay for ad free, well edited content.

I won't subscribe to content creators anymore - no push notification from any service or app. It short circuits my brain. This includes removing email from my phone. I've also cut queues managed by free sites (amazon wishlist, netflix, etc.) for the same reason. I want to finish the TODO list, even though it doesn't reflect my overall life priorities.

I did replace all this with a digital personal organizer (ticktick), where I manage my priorities.

I've become more aware of the data tradeoffs using an android phone. My attempted solution was to dramatically pare down what I do on the phone. It's still a lot - Calls, text, maps, photos, audio books, personal organizer, music. Web browsing worked its way back in, but I use private mode and disable the browser as soon as I'm done. If it was painless, I'd give the Apple ecosystem a try. I was drawn to Android years ago, for being more open - code, side loading apps, etc. Ironic that Apple now seems better, for being less open.



I love the idea of disconnecting home internet entirely, sipping on a mobile data plan. My wife and I have discussed it. She still has strong reasons for streaming video. Around 2008-2010, before smart phones, we did go without home internet. It was mentally freeing. The money saved could even afford a treat at the coffee shop, whenever I wanted to be online. With MVNO cell providers making data progressively cheaper, I bet we eventually return to this.

AnalyticalEngine
Posts: 949
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:57 am

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Jacob wrote:The great beauty of TV is therefore not so much that it acts as a form of active propaganda steering people towards certain goals, but that it keeps people from having goals in the first place.
I've been thinking lately about going full nuclear with digital entertainment in all forms. I mean really, is cheap entertainment worth it? Is that something worth even being in my web of goals? What exactly am I trying to get out of using these platforms? Is saying mindless entertainment "is fine" really a strategic choice? Or am I just falling in with the mass of consumers? How would my life be different if I totally ditched all forms of digital entertainment (a truly revolutionary act)?

I have gotten into screenwriting as a hobby lately though, and I will say, reading the screenplay then watching the movie is an entirely different experience than just mindlessly watching something. Also not all movies and TV shows are created equal. Some are quite insightful, others are The Emoji Movie.

User avatar
Alphaville
Posts: 3611
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by Alphaville »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 2:06 pm
Also not all movies and TV shows are created equal.
this here is key. this is where critics, curators, and fellow aficionados can help steer you to the good stuff.

say you want to part with all things digital and stick only to books. books aren't inherently privileged or safe from idiotic authors and other plagues. there are infinite terrible books not worth the weight of the paper they're printed on. so much written trash out there, and actual trees died for it. shameful.

right now for me the best digital value ever is my annual subscription to the criterion channel. i no longer need to travel to the anthology archives in new york or the egyptian theatre in los angeles or the national art gallery in dc to see a great film. this isn't "entertainment" however--it takes real energy and engagement to watch a work of art.

http://anthologyfilmarchives.org/film_s ... dar#day-27

AnalyticalEngine
Posts: 949
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:57 am

Re: Digital Minimalism?

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Alphaville wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 3:04 pm
it takes real energy and engagement to watch a work of art.
This is how I try to approach films now as well, especially watching for how they were written and produced. However, this is not really mindless entertainment. I can only do this when I have energy. The problem I have not entirely solved yet is what to do with my "too tired to do anything useful" moments. I don't want to default to screens here for all the reasons mentioned in this thread, but I'm not sure what a good replacement is.

Post Reply