Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

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AxelHeyst
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

jacob wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:42 am
The Stoa talk has a slide on how this works in terms of how well the various capitals need to be developed before synergies emerge. This WL5 as the advanced consumer (fully optimized). WL6 is the deliberate consumer. WL7 is the post-consumer.
Image

I'd never quite connected the "skills bar graph" and "web of goals" concepts together like this. It makes sense now - if you don't have enough nodes built/cultivated to a sufficient degree, there isn't really anything *to* conceptualize in a web.

That implies that if I haven't yet L6-developed a sufficient number of nodes/activities in my life, no amount of WoG diagramming is going to get me to the position of operating a web that possesses tensegrity. It'll just be theoretical drawing exercises.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by jacob »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:34 am
I'd never quite connected the "skills bar graph" and "web of goals" concepts together like this.
It's somewhat explained (I hope) when I talk about the two slides that follow that one.

Here's what I had in my "lecture"-notes when talking about the capital (coordinate/create) slide.
jacob's possibly unspoken lecture notes wrote: transaction flow for (renaissance man) has multiple components---this means we can wire it together. It also means that it’s not as big a deal to lose a flow (like money). Like a business conglomerate we no longer need to transact in the market and we have more information.
AxelHeyst wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:34 am
That implies that if I haven't yet L6-developed a sufficient number of nodes/activities in my life, no amount of WoG diagramming is going to get me to the position of operating a web that possesses tensegrity. It'll just be theoretical drawing exercises.
Correct. You'll know-about [WL7], but you won't know [WL7]. However, knowing-about it should alleviate the "compartmentalization" barrier that would otherwise be a WL6 sticking point for much longer.

Add: Also the modules built to the level of coordinate/create must also be sufficiently "near" each other for homeotelic goals to exist. If your activities are widely separated, there is not way for systems effects to emerge, because nothing transfers. The yields don't connect. E.g. math, savings, and econ are close; math, jogging, and larping are not or at least far less obvious.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I looked at the Stoa presentation again. My new take is that I’ve been a “slutty” Level 7 for many years. What I mean by “slutty” is that I push the brake on paid work faster and I pump the pedal on fun harder than a less “slutty” Level 7. Ergo, I end up spending somewhat more money and saving quite a bit less.

So, if I want to stay “slutty”, I have to be even more skilled in order to reduce my dependency on the conventional consumer market (or a polyamour who shops the conventional consumer market on my behalf) at the margin. For example, as Jacob covered in the book, the easiest/fastest way to reduce an expense such as musical theater tickets is to just decide that you don’t want it anymore, because financial independence or reducing associated resource burn or fitb is more important to you. It’s more difficult to, for instance, figure out how to barter your garden grown heirloom tomatoes for theater tickets. And a lower level of savings provides less optionality in forms of productive assets you can procure, so, for instance, you can’t just purchase an entire theater as an investment which also yields you a seat for the show.

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Alphaville
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:47 am
I looked at the Stoa presentation again. My new take is that I’ve been a “slutty” Level 7 for many years. What I mean by “slutty” is that I push the brake on paid work faster and I pump the pedal on fun harder than a less “slutty” Level 7. Ergo, I end up spending somewhat more money and saving quite a bit less.

So, if I want to stay “slutty”, I have to be even more skilled in order to reduce my dependency on the conventional consumer market (or a polyamour who shops the conventional consumer market on my behalf) at the margin. For example, as Jacob covered in the book, the easiest/fastest way to reduce an expense such as musical theater tickets is to just decide that you don’t want it anymore, because financial independence or reducing associated resource burn or fitb is more important to you. It’s more difficult to, for instance, figure out how to barter your garden grown heirloom tomatoes for theater tickets. And a lower level of savings provides less optionality in forms of productive assets you can procure, so, for instance, you can’t just purchase an entire theater as an investment which also yields you a seat for the show.
2 different notes here:

we know you need a money-earning node. you're on your way back to part-time earning, so that should rebalance your whole network.

but also:

no need to trade tomatoes for tix. can you can volunteer as an usher or get standing room only? i used to do this when i lived in a decent city (not for musical theater, yuck, lmao, but i support your disgusting habit cuz im a friend :D ).
Last edited by Alphaville on Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

BWND
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by BWND »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:34 am
It makes sense now - if you don't have enough nodes built/cultivated to a sufficient degree, there isn't really anything *to* conceptualize in a web.
:idea: aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (usually followed by 'I see').

Am I right in saying then that both "built" and "cultivated to a sufficient degree" are both equally important? If they were only built, say vaguely or superficially, the 'threads' of any emerging web would be too fragile and easily broken. This might manifest in different ways. 1) A conscious attempt is made to connect them that fails, 2) A connection is made and then broken without the person realising, 3) The person notices an emerging connection but they lose it as quickly as it comes.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Alphaville:

Yes, volunteering as usher is another option. Putting on a musical theater production with my much more talented sisters would be another option. I used to have a recurring role on a local cable musical children’s show even though I can’t sing. I was even paid $25 for appearing in the extended video version :lol: One of the reasons I chose my new city was cultural center with associated theater season with associated school where I could likely part-time teach. My brain is always going like that, but I still sometimes get stuck.

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Alphaville
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:45 am
@Alphaville:

Yes, volunteering as usher is another option. Putting on a musical theater production with my much more talented sisters would be another option. I used to have a recurring role on a local cable musical children’s show even though I can’t sing. I was even paid $25 for appearing in the extended video version :lol: One of the reasons I chose my new city was cultural center with associated theater season with associated school where I could likely part-time teach. My brain is always going like that, but I still sometimes get stuck.
hahahaha! that sounds like a blast. and yeah, we're big on "culture" also, so congrats on the move. would like to see extended video version some day hahahahaha.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

Quick pass at my skills chart, for something to point at/talk about:

Image

I've clustered items that have some ~obvious relationship to each other, although some clusters have pretty clear potential relationships to others, like writing. I need to go back to the CCCCCC model and think about it, and then do another pass to feel like I've somewhat accurately pegged the nodes.

It's relevant that the only things in my life that I feel I'm really "connecting in a web" are the things on the far left - I'm working on several activities that are passing the yields from all of those nodes through the others, as well was the "construction" node which is one of the few others "above the line".

Scott 2
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Scott 2 »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:34 am
That implies that if I haven't yet L6-developed a sufficient number of nodes/activities in my life, no amount of WoG diagramming is going to get me to the position of operating a web that possesses tensegrity. It'll just be theoretical drawing exercises.
Observation is hugely effective in evolving a system. IMO, how you use the diagramming determines if it is only theoretical.

I think you'll be able to (need to!) exercise the new pattern at small scales, before applying it to large. A small trial demands few resources. It can happen right now. Think exploration of tensegrity with some sticks and string:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzSPS3WCY2c&t=32s

The video shows the other side of heavy interdependence. Yes, within the bounds of tolerance, it is magical. But when it fails, it does so spectacularly. Well designed systems have mechanisms to handle excessive disruption. Think of a circuit breaker in your house, a freeze when the market rapidly crashes, or just a couple hundred bucks in your dresser. The risk mitigation comes at the price of ongoing overhead - friction.

There are appropriate times for crude, inefficient patterns. They can strengthen the system as a whole, even make it anti-fragile. There's a good chance your existing system is smarter than you appreciate. We are all passing a mutable resource (time) between nodes. Inefficiencies may have emerged for reasons you do not understand or cannot articulate. They can be an intelligent part of the whole, supporting needs you are blind to.

This is a reason continuous change with ongoing feedback is critical. Nobody has a perfect understanding of reality. Design is a discovery process - evolving a model of the living system, to better effect change within it.


I encourage anyone consuming a maturity model to see it as a necessarily generic abstraction. It can inform what you try, but cannot prescribe the answer.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by jacob »

Should also note that the reason that the "live close enough to work so you can walk and get exercise while saving the car" pops up as the most common example of a system is because most people are able to Coordinate a relocation and Coordinate their own legs for autokinesis.

It's an easier sell in Europe where people are not used to being driven everywhere and having their own car after age 16. This means car-free also exists at least at the Compute level---people know how to get things done w/o a car. In the US, living without a car is still sufficiently novel that people need to Copy and Compare with someone who does or read a book about it when they're ready, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Well-Wi ... 580087574/

7Wannabe5
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“Scott 2” wrote: We are all passing a mutable resource (time) between nodes.
Isn’t it more like we are passing other resources over time?

@AxelHeyst:

Just to the limited extent that I know you, I see all sorts of flows. For instance, your gardening must be flowing to your cooking and your cooking must be flowing to all your sports activities through adequate nutrition. Also, your athletic conditioning must be flowing into your construction work (could a wee bit more of that myself :lol: ) Your construction work and your furniture making are flowing into your shelter needs, etc.

BookLoverL
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by BookLoverL »

I think this is probably definitely why I'm still level 6, then - I'm definitely still at the stage of gaining the skills I need to produce the nonmonetary yields. But I'm making progress with a lot of them. But I think I am starting to make connections between the different skills, too.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Quadalupe »

I tried to make some web of goals for a WL5/6/7 based on Jacob's description. Due to space limitations it's very tiny, but I tried to capture the following:
  • WL 5 has one main source/stock for producing yields.
  • WL 6 has multiple stocks that produce yields, but no synergies yet (superfluous stuff is just routed to Trash)
  • WL7 has multiple stocks that produce yields and one flows trash is another flows treasure.
I discern between Activities, Stocks and Goals. I think one could also add Capital (Land, tools, skills) that acts like some sort of catalyst for activities: it's not used/reduced upon use, but it might even improve upon use, as well as improving the yields for an activity!

Here are the images:
WL5
Image

WL6
Image

WL7
Image

I don't know if it helps anybody else, but for me it was illuminating to sit down and draw some stuff using pen and paper.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“jacob” wrote: Should also note that the reason that the "live close enough to work so you can walk and get exercise while saving the car" pops up as an example of a system is because most people are able to Coordinate a move and Coordinate their own legs for autokinesis.
Coordinating own legs is huge! Those who can’t* well enough to make it to the bathroom have to spend between $1600 to $8000**/ month to hire somebody else to do it.

*and also lack ability to use muscular arms as backup.
**depending on other factors such as weight and cuteness.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by jacob »

@Quadalupe - Nice! Our WL7/8ish garden setup has the soil coming in for free from the local forestry/sewage plant. Seeds are partially bought and partially saved from the garden. Some harvested veggies also go to neighbors and coworkers---cakes and cookies sometimes come back.

It's clear how these diagrams become quite complicated and interconnected the more resource-types are tracked(*). WL5's usage of "Job" (or "index fund") as the master resource and "Trash" as the universal sink is a lot simpler.

(*) E.g. you'd have overlays perhaps in different colors. It becomes 3D like a modern microchip design.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by jacob »

Going back to the ERE book, "Coordinate" is when comprehension has reached the "LEGO"-level (there's a section). Another way of framing it is when the components of thinking [about the particular yield] have become part of one's active vocabulary. IOW, WL6 might understand systems quite well when pointed out explicitly because while the vocabulary is there, it's still passive (Compute). WL6 is just not fluent in it.

I'd suggest maybe rereading the ERE book with these things in mind.

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Alphaville
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Alphaville »

Quadalupe wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:49 pm
I tried to make some web of goals for a WL5/6/7 based on Jacob's description. Due to space limitations it's very tiny, but I tried to capture the following:
  • WL 5 has one main source/stock for producing yields.
  • WL 6 has multiple stocks that produce yields, but no synergies yet (superfluous stuff is just routed to Trash)
  • WL7 has multiple stocks that produce yields and one flows trash is another flows treasure.
I discern between Activities, Stocks and Goals. I think one could also add Capital (Land, tools, skills) that acts like some sort of catalyst for activities: it's not used/reduced upon use, but it might even improve upon use, as well as improving the yields for an activity!

Here are the images:
WL5
Image

WL6
Image

WL7
Image

I don't know if it helps anybody else, but for me it was illuminating to sit down and draw some stuff using pen and paper.
this is great stuff--quality presentation

also good to have it done as examples rather than rules.

e.g. urban dwellers (not suburban) with minimal garden access (community gardens are in high demand so not an option for everyone/there are queues) need to come up with different schemes to make things work in similar fashion.i might want to sketch out something for my situation.

curious about how you'd illustrate rob greenfield's flows. he's nearly free of money, at the same time his marketing increases social capital in orders of magnitude.

also, in a multiperson network, would people count as "stock"? (i tend towards yes because that's how i process my household, though we're not cattle where one produces meat and the other milk :D but similar in that each has different outputs ). eg i grew up around a multigenerational household where each adult had their own competencies and contributions towards the whole. my household similarly is not organized as "2 separate individuals doing the same things" a la classic dink, but as a common pot (the system) where we contribute to the whole in complementary/supplementary/synergistic ways.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by IlliniDave »

Quadalupe wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:49 pm
I tried to make some web of goals for a WL5/6/7 based on Jacob's description. Due to space limitations it's very tiny, but I tried to capture the

I don't know if it helps anybody else, but for me it was illuminating to sit down and draw some stuff using pen and paper.
Interesting illustrations, thanks, it provided me an epiphany moment. I've been way off base. I sort of assumed a system like the one shown for 7 would be a 5. Apparently I grew up in a household very close to ereWL7 as far as the food process feeding a healthy lifestyle goal, except we never bought dirt (used what came in the yard and improved it over time), composted without captive worms, would eat KFC on Mother's Day, and added fish and game on occasion. And to be fair we did it partly because money was tight, and partly because it was what was customary in both my parents' families. So the health benefits were more of a byproduct than a target. The loop closing was all pretty intuitive rather than academic.

Later some of the $ went to buy land and have a bigger garden and ultimately a vineyard which resulted in some consumption increases (it was out of town so had to be driven to, Dad bought a small 40-year-old tractor to get a crop off part of it to pay the taxes, $ for materials to begin erecting the trellises). So maybe a step back to 6 on balance.

Of course as an adult I regressed appreciably from my "poor" roots.

Now I have a template to asses what I assume the initial state of my ER is going to be. Thanks for taking the time to share that!

Edit for grammer bugaboos and clarity.
Last edited by IlliniDave on Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Scott 2
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Scott 2 »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:31 pm
Isn’t it more like we are passing other resources over time?
Pressed, I'd describe it as the un-manifest pool of life energy, that trickles out to us over time. This becomes wealth, relationships, skills, whatever pool of resources you want to trade on. They are all an attempt at preservation, rather than losing our lives to entropy.

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Alphaville
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Alphaville »

IlliniDave wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:29 pm
Interesting illustrations, thanks, it provided me an epiphany moment. I've been way off base. I sort of assumed a system like the one shown for 7 would be a 5.

[...] , would eat KFC on Mother's Day,

[...]

Later some of the $ went to buy land and have a bigger garden and ultimately a vineyard which resulted in some consumption increases (it was out of town so had to be driven to, Dad bought a small 40-year-old tractor to get a crop off part of it to pay the taxes, $ for materials to begin erecting the trellises).
yeah i thought the one for 5 was like... a 1. but ultimately for me the number doesn't matter. what matters is the quality and integration of my assigned/designed network. same as music: i dont care about rankings on "the charts" or whatever: if it's great, it's great.

i remember when i was a little kid... kfc was delicious! i could smell it from a mile away. at some point something changed though, and it wasn't just my tastebuds... poultry farming changed. i think even colonel sanders complained of lowering standards eventuslly (actually, my first kfc was while we were posted in mexico... it was so good.)

funny story, similar to yours: my wife's peasant family was somewhat ruined by monetary prosperity. as i mentioned in a post above, peasants have a lot of renaissance skills. but when money enters the picture, it can throw things out of balance, and generate a lot of waste and pollution. oh, ask me about tractors :lol: (no, don't ask me, hahaha.) ask me about too much cattle, too many trucks, too much tv, too many moochers, too many scams.... :roll: seriously, money broke their system.

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