Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Simple living, extreme early retirement, becoming and being wealthy, wisdom, praxis, personal growth,...
User avatar
Alphaville
Posts: 3611
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Alphaville »

strength training also prevents sarcopenia and osteoporosis so everyone should do it at some level

-

what @ertyu just said

-

but working it back to topic, integrating use of strength into everyday life is a good way to do it. eg hiking home with a hesvy backpack full of groceries.

and (was looking at this just the other day), here are some free bodyweight exercises to fortify your walks

https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice ... ining.html *

* [ ps swiss ball takes up too much space in my apt, but you can do one-leg bridges. eg https://www.mensjournal.com/wp-content/ ... time_0.jpg

also instead of weights, elastic bands are easier to store and have some advantages like no dead spots. but those we can discuss in the workouts thread.]

most activities you can do by hand instead of by machine will increase strength at some level though. not olympic level, but even something as simple as mashing potatoes with a masher or grinding spices with a metate.

i used to fell trees and buck logs and split firewood by hand--- and at first was grueling and "crazy" but then became a blast.

everyone else used chainsaw, but chainsaw, besides spewing bad fumes and needing frequent petrochemical fluids and complicated repairs, breeds type 2 diabetes.

also you could rent a gas powered firewood splitter from home depot for $100/day and split for the season and "save time" for more beetus.

Scott 2
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Scott 2 »

Optimizing the overall system introduces localized inefficiencies. The 2nd or 3rd order effects can be more important, especially if they impact a key constraint. IMO, that's what we are debating around strength training.

I think it's a lot more likely that time is a constraint, than bone density or limit strength. I don't think a high level system includes much formal exercise. The exception being - someone like white belt, who has centered on it. I suppose there's a philosophical debate on the merits of efficiently making others less efficient. Can a social media influencer ever be high level? :lol:

I do think low level systems benefit greatly from formal exercise. But, something you introduce to benefit at low levels, can become a barrier moving into high levels. Operating at a high level means giving up good things. It's the only way to operate at the very highest levels. That's the price of greatness, however you define it.


With that said, I don't aspire to be great. I personally like to watch Netflix, while I lift weights in the basement. I might take 2 hours to do a 45 minute workout. I'm totally cool with that friction in my system. It's one of my favorite parts of the day. I'm a flawed person, leading a life I enjoy.

I've tried an obvious next step. Train on an interval timer, halving exercise duration with a greater cardio benefit. I can replace Netflix with an audio book too. It is more effective. I am fitter. I learn more. But, that's not what I like doing. So I'm back to the old pattern.

I think it's a mistake to treat a maturity model as an aspirational ladder. Level 3 works. Level 7 works. It comes down to what fits the individual, today. It's great to understand what might be next, but that doesn't mean your life demands it. Try some stuff, keep what works.

Qazwer
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 6:51 pm

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Qazwer »

‘It is more effective...But, that’s not what I like doing’ There is a disconnect from aspirational values and true values in a lot of life style design. You can value entertainment and humor and emotional understanding etc that one gets from watching TV. Optimization without values has little meaning - understanding what you are actually optimizing towards.
‘Optimizing the overall system introduces localized inefficiencies’ I think that is what I have been struggling to understand with closing loops. I think this may lead me to understand myself a lot better. Thank you

User avatar
Alphaville
Posts: 3611
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Alphaville »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:06 am
I think it's a mistake to treat a maturity model as an aspirational ladder. Level 3 works. Level 7 works. It comes down to what fits the individual, today. It's great to understand what might be next, but that doesn't mean your life demands it. Try some stuff, keep what works.
yeah. i think especially in the case of ere as a tool, not ere as a goal.

for me, ere is not an end in itself but a tool in my kit, like permaculture, or even part-time employment/entrepreneurship/non-retirement.

my life project is arts-centered, not ere-centered, so there are aspects of it that require tradeoff vs a "pure" ere model.

e.g., while chopping wood with axes and buck saws and mauls was a fantastic workout, free from money traps, and so forth, it did not leave enough time to work towards other goals. and the location where i could do that did not allow enough access to the networks that enabled arts processes. so the conpromise was to move to a networked place with central heating (more time for art).

also: i am "permaculturish " in that i support organic farming and reduction of "toxic gick" (lol, that word), but supporting that sector of the economy, if i'm not able to go postconsumer, requires spending more than 1 jafi.

i think the general principle of increasing homeotelicity still stands though. whether your drive is towards "absolute" ere, or towards something else, the drive to resolve contradictions still pays off dividends whatever it is you're trying to do.

unless of course you're walt withman: he contradicts himself. he contains multitudes! :D

(i think in truth we're all a little bit walt whitmans, which is why some of his poetry endures so well.)

Scott 2
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Scott 2 »

Qazwer wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:53 pm
There is a disconnect from aspirational values and true values in a lot of life style design.
Agreed. I do hesitate to claim values based design. I spent the morning standing in my unfinished basement, watching Undercover Brother 2. Some deadlifts happened, but very casually.

Goldratt's work provides a deep treatment of constraints. His talk - Beyond the Goal - changed my perspective. I am much more accepting of sub-optimal nodes in an overall system. If they don't hit any constraints, they probably don't warrant attention.

Alphaville wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:52 pm
the drive to remove contradiction still pays off dividends
This pokes at something that bugs me. The label "web of goals" carries an inherent assumption - we are all achievers.

To the extent my system is designed, it is no longer built around paying dividends.

I have loose objectives - love my wife, practice self care, maintain a secure foundation, do interesting things.

My system exists to facilitate those objectives. There isn't a strict end in sight. Related activities spin up and down. They might contain goals. But, the results are ancillary. If I never put my 100lb dumbbell overhead, that's ok.

Borrowing from Bartle's taxonomy. I find more value in being an explorer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_ta ... ayer_types

Image


I don't interpret a high ERE level to depend upon achievement, but I think the label encourages an achiever's lense.

johnsmith84730
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:48 am

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by johnsmith84730 »

A brief example:

WL5: Bob often goes thrift-shopping and buys good quality items. He buys the rest of his food in bulk or based on loss-leaders at the supermarket.

WL6: Bob sometimes goes thrift-shopping to collect high quality (buy-it-for-life) items + picks up useful items put out on the street when passing by + dabbles in dumpster-diving with friends. This has very noticeably reduced his expenditure on household goods and even many food items. He buys all other food in bulk and cooks practically everything from scratch. He has started a small plot of veggies in his backyard.

WL7: Bob applied for the plot in the community garden (and gradually expanded it) after realizing he gets along well with the people there, and that he can replace more of his fresh food expense, and he can use all of his fresh food waste at the compost heap there.

Bob has planned his daily cargo-bike commute to the community garden so that the route passes through the most plentiful street-waste areas (wealthy/young areas?) + high-yield dumpster-diving locations. Items that are useful but not personally needed are either used in various projects (e.g. construction/carpentry projects), stored for the future or gifted to friends that would find them useful. These friends now also keep items that they know might be useful for Bob, and gift them to him when they meet up for social activities. This often avails Bob of free access to resources from friends or at the community garden that would usually be completely unavailable without paying $.

Bob keeps a mental logbook of different friends and acquaintances and what they might have that he can borrow/use and what they might want/need in case he comes across it.

WL7 Bob now realizes that he hasn't felt the need to go to the thrift store for several years. Also, his food expenditure is close to zero most months. Also, he is often a high value social target as he brings a good time and many tasty (dumpster-dived) snacks to any group get-togethers.

(this example is inspired by a true story :-)

User avatar
Alphaville
Posts: 3611
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Alphaville »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:48 pm
This pokes at something that bugs me. The label "web of goals" carries an inherent assumption - we are all achievers.

To the extent my system is designed, it is no longer built around paying dividends.
yeah, i don't know if you read this in the monetary sense, but dividends in my sentence means perhaps more generally "yields." maybe i should have said "increases yields". apologies for the inaccuracy.

the yields may be free time or enjoyment or delicious meals or whatever it is you want. the ability to say "no" to people, and choose what you want to do, explore, play around, can be a result of your system design.

in my case there is "stuff" i want do do/make/experience. it is not possible for me to do what i want to do without that freedom. i want my system to generate that freedom to enable, yes, "goals." this is not ere-proper but it's an attempt at a coherent system using ere tool/principles.

if you want more tv and weighlifts resulting from your system--or more exploration--those would be your "dividends" in my context. you get what you want.

and if you don't want to spend all hours of the day fretting about the perfect organization of your system, then don't commit to a system that requires perfection and fretting.

the absence of fretting and perfection would be the "extra yields" from homeotelicity. not from effort, but from coherence.

i mean, you could call it "web of wishes and desires". mine includes the moderate daily ingestion of very tasty foods (dividends!, from the practice of cooking).

in the case of the system i'm trying to create, the ere framework is extremely useful. plus i need to work a lot on optimization, because my difficult but tasty desire is to live with very little money in a very high cost of living area :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: (wish me luck. or go ahead, laugh. i do all the time.)

so yeah, ere as an improvable tool is useful for me, as great optimization will be required for this desired "achievement" of mine. not looking to compete or receive medals though. just to do what works. but i have a hard project. so.... i need sharp tools.

i could provide more context on this, but it's not the right thread. maybe i can start a journal not based on "me" but on this particular project.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15907
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by jacob »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:48 pm
This pokes at something that bugs me. The label "web of goals" carries an inherent assumption - we are all achievers.
I can't really control what people assume. Terminology always comes with a lot of baggage. The wildest one I encountered early on right after the book came out. It took me a few hours to realize that a few readers sincerely believed that businessman, salaryman, ... *man terminology meant that the ideas were inapplicable to women.

I'd encourage you to read "goal" as "intentional consequence" or whatever works. In Bartle's terminology it would be "desired action" whether that's an exploring action, a killing action, or an inter-action or combinations thereof.

Meanwhile, the web needs to account for the side-effects or side-actions or side-consequences.

In particular, it's hard to imagine (at least for me) that a web-of-goals implies finish lines as crossing the finish line would immediately punch out entire nodes and not just links in the web.

Add: I should also note that in trying to draw the webs, there's been some exploration as to whether nodes should be nouns or verbs and links should be verbs or nouns. You can go both ways and this would reveal different things. One would be a web of goals. The other would be a web of processes. Perhaps this is also different between Eastern and Western thought modalities. There are many inaccurate ways of describing these ideas but unfortunately not one accurate way because this is an unusual way of thinking and so it lacks vocabulary/dictionary mass.

Scott 2
Posts: 2824
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Scott 2 »

It could be my corporate bias. Years of SMART goals on annual performance reviews.

User avatar
Alphaville
Posts: 3611
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Alphaville »

Scott 2 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:34 pm
It could be my corporate bias. Years of SMART goals on annual performance reviews.
perhaps a folksier restatement of "decrease heterotelicity to increase system yields" could be "don't shoot yourself in the foot" :mrgreen:

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9370
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I think for permaculture the nodes being nouns is easier but for lifestyle design the nodes being verbs is easier. Acreage vs calendar. I guess for a complex system in which varying individuals are seeking/experiencing personal fulfillment/flow in manner sustainable within eco-boundary, it would be best to integrate both. Otherwise, even in a simple system, humans become commodified.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9370
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

One thing I am wondering is where coming up with a “scheme” like Lentil Baby would fit on Copy, Compare,Compile, Coordinate, Create? If I were to simplify it to a rule or tactic, it might be something like, “When in social interaction with anybody at lower frugality Wheaton level, if mutual problem is encountered which other individual prefers to solve with money, express your agreement to plan in form ‘Yes, but I am only willing to chip in X=1/2 cost (might be $0) of my preferred solution’”
...the Renaissance strategy is based on consilience- a specific way of weaving widely different ideas and tools together to solve complex problems- and resilience...

While not completely equivalent, consilience shares a lot with typical business strategies which can be transferred to the individual sphere.
Obviously, Lentil Baby does weave together widely different ideas and tools and it is inclusive of negotiation skills which might also be useful in business setting. However, it may be lacking in resilience. Dunno.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9370
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

From “ A Pattern Language”: Pattern 120: Paths and Goals
The layout of paths will seem right and comfortable only when it is compatible with the process of walking. And the process of walking is far more subtle than one might imagine...

...Since you do not want to keep changing direction while you walk and do not want to spend your whole time re-calculating your best direction of travel, you arrange your walking process in such a way that you pick a temporary “goal”- some clearly visible landmark- which is more or less in the direction you want to take and then walk in a straight line toward it for a hundred yards, then, as you get close, pick another new goal, once more a hundred yards further on, and walk toward it...You do this so that in between, you can talk, think, daydream, smell the spring, without having to think about your walking direction every minute...

...The proper arrangement of paths is one with enough intermediate goals to make this process workable. If there aren’t enough intermediate goals, the process of walking becomes more difficult, and consumes unnecessary emotional energy.

Therefore:

To lay out paths, first place goals at natural points of interest. Then connect the goals to one another to form the paths. The paths may be straight, or gently curving between goals; their paving should swell around the goal. The goals should never be more than a few hundred feet apart.

AxelHeyst
Posts: 2118
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

I've been working over these questions in my head for a few weeks, and I think they're all related:
  • What is the Point/Purpose/Goal of ERE?
  • How does one construct a WoG? Is the exercise actually useful, or is it more like a metaphor?
  • How does one "level up" one's thinking from WL6 to WL7? (Or, more generally, what is one's motivation to apply energy to getting from WL(n) to WL(n+1)?
  • Is there such a thing as ERE "dogma"? Or is that not a gross misunderstanding of what this is all about?
  • Is ERE at odds with meaning-generating structures such as Catholicism? (an appreciative nod to the discussions in Hristo's journal).
  • Conversations happening in the Mastermind group around how to motivate oneself to learn skills that will make one's life better, but one's life is already pretty effing good.
It feels like as the focus of the forum has moved towards the question of moving from ~WL5 to ~WL7, there's been a focus on saying "hey wait a minute, what's the point? Isn't this just achieving WL7 for the sake of achieving WL7? What are these stupid "Wheaton Levels" anyways?"

A small little light bulb went off in my head this morning as I tried to sketch out some L6 reverse fishbones, and a bastardized "web of goals/network diagram", and just looked at what I'd sketched and said "well, duh. This isn't bringing me any insights. What am I missing?"

It occurred to me that what's happening as people are turning their attention to the question of "to WL7, or not to WL7", is a crisis of meaning. People are grasping for the why.

And ERE does not supply that why. By design. ERE is a BYOMS, Bring Your Own Meaning Structure.

Jacob has a Why (something like to live a good life in harmony with the earth), and since he made ERE, that Why is somewhat encoded into ERE. But that doesn't mean that anyone else's Why has to completely overlap explicitly, it just means that if your Why in life is really divergent ("My main Why is to make a lot of money / burn a lot of fossil fuels / exert dominance over other human beings and nature!"), ERE is probably not a good fit for you.

You don't have to have that exact same Why to possess motivation to achieve a howlie lifestyle. But you do need a Why, and I think it needs to provide sufficient motivation (stoke), you need to have a clear enough vision in your head of what you want and why you want it, in order to put in the effort to 'level up'.

The very first sentence of the ERE book is "I think of this book first and foremost as a philosophy book about strategy." First sentence, second paragraph: "This book isn't a "how-to" manual to a specific lifestyle, but a "how-to" manual for "how-to" manuals. The intention is for each person to create his own strategy... It's a book that teaches you to become a navigator."

ERE isn't about telling anyone where to go, specifically, it's about teaching people the cognitive tools they need to be able to get themselves to wherever it is they want to go. Each individual needs to supply their own destination, each individual needs to input their own set of gps coordinates.

ERE is a method for constructing a how-to manual for achieving one's own unique vision for their ideal lifestyle. It does not supply the unique vision.

I want to become The Wandering Engineer, my own personal vision of an artist/engineer dirtbag who roams the ruins of North America helping people make better walipinis and compost toilets and windmills in exchange for room and board in their eco-refuge villages. I'm using ERE as a methodology to create my own "How to become The Wandering Engineer" manual.

My manual is going to be different than RoamingFrancis' manual, which is entitled "How to become a Contemplative EthnoEcologist."

And likewise both our manuals are going to be different than Jacob's, whose manual is titled "How to Be the Piercer of the Fog".

I have an explanation for why almost no one questions why they should get to WL5, and almost no one critiques WL5's for confusing the map for the territory. The "why" for WL5 is "FIRE!" That's a pretty easy Destination to get on board with. It excites almost everyone's imagination. "Hey, how would you like to not have to work ever again if you don't want to?" Uh, yeah, sign me up, says almost everyone. So the Vision, the Why, required to maintain motivation to achieve it, is not actually super unique - it's quite common.

WL7+ is different.
ERE: "Hey, now that you're on the road to (or already) FI and RE, and think you've attained the pinnacle of The Good Life, how would you like to cut your living expenses in half again, learn systems theory, argue minutia about the mindset differences between Greenfield, Boyle, and Proenneke, and maybe "give up" some more stuff?"

WL5: "Uh. Wait, whytf would I want to do that? That sounds like a lot of work and my life is already pretty dope."

ERE: "Well, I guess for one thing, you'll be even more resilient in the case of catastrophic events like economic collapse, "natural" disaster, or faster-than-we-all-though civilization collapse."

WL5: "Goodness, that sounds doomer as hell, I don't want to think about that / I don't like organizing my life around fear. That's a stupid pursuit!"

I think it's impossible to convince anyone why they would want to become a howlie, because the vision required to become a howlie must come from within. I think it "clicks" for people who have been wandering around with a vision that you haven't figured out how to realize yet, because your vision happens to require a how-to manual that hasn't been written yet. ERE is the instructions for how to write the how-to manual you need to fulfill your vision.

And so if you have a vision for your life that matches your current reality, if you are currently living your vision or pretty close, "leveling up" is totally pointless.

Another way to phrase it is that I think many (myself included, in my day-to-day engagement with the forum and my own systems) have been confusing the Means and Methods (ERE) with the End (each individual's unique vision for their life).

--

So my takeaway, to relate to the point of this thread of "how to get from WL6 to WL7?", is that that leveling-up process needs to be rooted in a clear vision. And attempting to force the process without a clear vision is likely a waste of time.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15907
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by jacob »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:24 pm
So my takeaway, to relate to the point of this thread of "how to get from WL6 to WL7?", is that that leveling-up process needs to be rooted in a clear vision. And attempting to force the process without a clear vision is likely a waste of time.
Every change (including leveling up or down) needs to be rooted in a vision, a plan, and a lack of satisfaction with the present situation (see 1.1). For every one who think FIRE is the bee's knees, I can show you 10+ who just want to be "FI" (modern word for "rich"), and 20+ who "love their job" so much they can't ever imagine changing it (imagination is not a common resource) and who just want to "pay off their bills".

The first(?) rule Paul Wheaton laid down was that each new level has geometrically fewer (10x?) than the previous level. Why is that? The Bartle suits would provide different answers. Socializers would get a chance to socialize with more interesting people (it's hard to go back once you tried it?). Killers would be able to defeat harder opponents. Explorers would go ever deeper into the rabbit hole. Achievers would get increasingly harder challenges---one thing for achievers here is that there's not really much status associated with ERE within a traditionally materialist society. In any case, change never comes quickly nor easily, so usually, there's no motivation.

The capital of these suits might translate better horizontally than vertically. An L7 explorer would probably vibe better with an L7 killer, say, than an L2 explorer on account of having traveled equally far albeit in different directions or for different reasons. (I'm not sure... but I suspect as much.)

AxelHeyst
Posts: 2118
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

So every "plateau" is characterized by some combination of a lack of vision, lack of good-enough plan, or too much satisfaction with current level.

"But why would I even want to level up?" Indicates a lack of vision.
"I want to level up, but it's hard to motivate because life is pretty good!" Indicates too much satisfaction.
"I've been beating my head against the wall for [unit of time] and I'm still stuck!" Probably indicates a flawed plan.

re: L7 killer vs. explorer - I can see that. As an explorer, I'd be inherently fascinated to compare and contrast the mental model of the killer, to try to grok their vision/motivation for having slogged all the way to L7. And potentially get some neat models that I could adapt and use myself. An L2 explorer would be yammering on about something I'd forgotten I didn't know once.

I feel like there is an "inverted achievement hierarchy" for the alternatively disposed. The dirtbag community has its share of humble-bragging and "dirtbag trophy awards" dynamics (Congratulations, you just won the Ed Beckey award for drinking free McDonalds coffee refills for a full year!!) But it's a small community that awards dirtbags status. The comments section of videos like this, to me, demonstrate that the community that awards status for alt lifestyles is small but strong (it's rare to ahave such overwhelmingly positive comments on yt). This is relevant to me because I suspect I have a smidge of Achiever in me, although I prefer to pretend I don't...

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15907
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by jacob »

Since I was 15ish I've envied the military's use/invention of fruit salad. Not so much as an award or achievement measure---my Danish upbringing makes me almost constitutionally opposed to "awards" or the pursuit thereof---but the convenience of carrying your resume/life-story on your sleeve. Also see geekcode! I know permies have GIF badges and the likes as does fitbit.

However, I'm not sure it would be a good idea for ERE being rather wider and less concrete in scope. There's a huge difference between "Grew 1M calories" or "100,000 steps in a day" and having transcended this or that perspective in terms of how it's measured and in terms of how the measure is interpreted. Also see viewtopic.php?p=241619#p241619 ... but for sure, having a bit of achiever in myself, I've definitely felt the desire for some kind of quantified validation on occasion, especially when it came to interacting with the mainstream. Indeed, making up some random award is a common way to try to steer the conversation (influence the battle environment) by means of abusing Goodhart's law.

In particular, I prefer to think of ERE as open-ended rather than close-ended. Creating achievements or milestones has a way of turning things into close-ended problems to be solved. This seems like a good idea at the context-free stages, e.g. "Saved a 3 moth emergency fund", "Debt-free", "FI", "RE", ... but a terrible idea at the contextual stages especially given how personal the journeys outside the Cave are.

Quadalupe
Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:56 am
Location: the Netherlands

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Quadalupe »

We can describe two questions:

1) How can I sell ERE to someone else?
2) Given that I am sold on ERE, how can I achieve it/level up?

Regarding 1): @AxelHeyst, if I understand you correctly, I think you argue that other people cannot be sold on ERE. You either already grok it, and the book/this forum/conversations with your local ERE spokesperson only gives you the mental tools to put into words what you felt all along. Or you don't grok it, it doesn't 'click' and all the explaining in the world won't help.

I agree that for most people, it won't click immediately, because the ideas are completely different from anything they have ever heard. However, I think change in vision can happen. Not by using the crowbar method by trying to tell them everything at once, but by easing them into it a bit more.

Show them some examples of what you do. Talk a little bit about their struggles they had when Covid first hit and all the stores were empty. Ask them how happy they still are after one year of retirement and most of their social structure and purpose is gone since they 'retired from' instead of 'retired to' (due to not having a resilient web of goals).

I think people can then understand why 'a higher WL'/ERE concepts might be benificial. But it'll take more time for most people than for others. That's okay, Jacob also has a 21 day make-over, and a whole book instead of a knock-out series of tweets. :P

I hope I didn't misconstrue your position, and am arguing against a strawman. If I did, I apologize.

Regarding 2): I've been thinking about this a lot too. I think a good way to start (step 1) with it is what you/I/we are doing by seriously wrestling and struggling with the core concepts. Draw some fishbones/WoGs/life diagrams, fail miserably, talk about it and get some aha-moments. This helps you to 'know about' (wessen). Next (step 2), you should get some hardcore skin in the game (I just finished Taleb's last book, so I learned a new phrase that I want to show off). Don't just draw a diagram, start living it. Start a buy nothing year, or try to barter stuff instead of buying it. Go live in a tent for two weeks and see how you like it. That is, act instead of think!

This is mainly directed to myself, since I am a huge nerd who's natural inclination is to be very excited about writing a reader in LaTeX about the applications of a WoG, instead of applying the theory in real life. It is also why I am so excited about this mastermind initative, since it has forced me to DO more.
jacob wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:54 pm
Since I was 15ish I've envied the military's use/invention of fruit salad. Not so much as an award or achievement measure---my Danish upbringing makes me almost constitutionally opposed to "awards" or the pursuit thereof---but the convenience of carrying your resume/life-story on your sleeve. Also see geekcode! I know permies have GIF badges and the likes as does fitbit.

[...]
However, I'm not sure it would be a good idea for ERE being rather wider and less concrete in scope.
[...]
I had to do a quick search to find out what a military fruit salad is:
"A "military salad bar" -- or a "fruit salad bar," as it is often referred to -- is not a collection of delightful snacks and vegetables. It is, in fact, an informal reference to the ribbons worn by officers and enlisted men on their dress uniforms that represent the various medals and campaigns they have received or served in.
I think we have some fruit salad things here right? Concepts like IR(2), years expenses saved. I think having some indicators focused on the WoG might also be useful. 'What is min (# goals an activity services)' or 'How many stocks can you strike from your network while it still functions'. But I agree that it's very tempting to simply use those close off what ERE (or 'good' ERE) might entail.

AxelHeyst
Posts: 2118
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

Quadalupe wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:47 pm
Regarding 1): @AxelHeyst, if I understand you correctly, I think you argue that other people cannot be sold on ERE. You either already grok it, and the book/this forum/conversations with your local ERE spokesperson only gives you the mental tools to put into words what you felt all along. Or you don't grok it, it doesn't 'click' and all the explaining in the world won't help.
Actually that's not quite what I'm arguing, but I appreciate your stab at what I said so I can clarify it more. I think that a) a Vision is a prerequisite to wanting to level up, and b) critically, ERE is not that vision itself, it is a means of achieving that vision.

I had a vision before I found ERE, but I was failing to realize it. As soon as I read ERE, I was "sold" on it because I saw it as a means of achieving my vision. However I didn't "grok" the means/tools, I'm still very much in the process of trying to internalize ERE, but I put some amount of faith that they were the right means/tools to help me fulfill my vision.

But also, ERE might serve as a spark to get me to develop a vision. The Plato's Cave allegory, and description of the Lock-In, might serve to "wake me up" to the fact that I'm living someone else's vision, and that there's a whole world out there, and I am actually free to invent my own.

So ERE is either going to make me say "Ah, this is how to achieve my Vision!" OR it's going to make me say "Oh, I didn't even realize I could think up my own vision, I'll go do that now, and here's the instructions for how to create my own how-to manual to get there, sold!" In either of those cases, someone can be "sold" on ERE.

If someone either already has a vision for their life that they're currently living, and/or see no need to construct another vision, then ERE cannot be sold to them, unless their faith/satisfaction in their vision can be shaken (e.g. by a global pandemic, or being shown a different/more attractive way to live, as you say...).

I think it's easy to think that ERE is passing itself off as a Vision because it can easily be confused as a FIRE book, and FIRE is basically a vision (a negative one - "My vision is not to work"). So it's easy to say "ah, ERE is about extremeFIRE, it explains the vision (FI/RE) as well as laying out the means and methods to achieve it". But that's not quite right. The higher you go up the Wheaton Levels, the more unique and self-developed your vision has to be. A Copied vision isn't going to cut it.

Building on what Jacob said, "Every change/level up needs to be rooted in sufficient vision, plan, and dissatisfaction..." - I've felt this resonating over the past 14 months or so. My vision originally was more mainstream FIRE / I don't want to have to work, something something autonomy. Once I'd semiERE'd, I had space to more fully explore/flesh out/get in touch with a more sophisticated personal vision, which is this Wandering Engineering mythology. The more clear I've gotten about that, the more I've been motivated to level up.

I agree with your thoughts on (2).

AxelHeyst
Posts: 2118
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

To try to state it more succinctly:

If one is trying to change, it's important to take in mind (Dissatisfaction*Vision*Plan > Cost of change). What this thread is about on the surface is how to construct a good Plan to get from 6 to 7, but no Plan will suffice if someone doesn't have sufficient Vision or Dissatisfaction such that DVP is greater than cost to change.

It seems to me that the usual way to approach growth is to first become dissatisfied (possibly by comparing one's position to someone else's position, being shown how fragile one's position is e.g. by Covid or Houston grid failure, etc), which leads to an effort of imagination to construct a Vision, the two of which together gives enough motivation to construct a plan and then execute it (iterate, tweak, experiment, test until success).

As one goes up the Wheaton Levels, I think the Dissatisfaction becomes more abstract and Vision becomes more unique and requires more imaginative effort to construct. At L3, one is dissatisfied with not being able to spend gobs of money on Fun Stuff, and their vision is basically to be wealthy. L5, one is dissatisfied with working so much and also they dislike inefficiency and the Vision is e.g. FIRE before 40. (The vision can have more nuance than that, but I'm saying these are sufficiently complex Visions to achieve L3 or L5).

To possess enough dissatisfaction to want to attain L7, you have to be acutely pained by things like the carbon footprint associated with a single annual flight, the lack of sufficient skill to perform DIY brain surgery on your cat, the fact that you still generate a bin of trash once a quarter, or whatever. I think throwing out generic examples might be not helpful here, but the point is that you're dissatisfied with some aspects of your life that almost no one else would notice or be dissatisfied with. This dissatisfaction leads to the construction of a very rare personal Vision that there are very few examples of.

Because the dissatisfactions one experiences and uniqueness of vision at the 6>7 boundary, it seems to me that in order to construct a Plan that has any chance of working, digging deep and doing lots of introspection into one's dissatisfactions and vision is necessary. The Plan must be custom-fit to one's D and V (heh), both of which must be very clearly understood.

So the n-step High-Level Process to Leveling up from 6 to 7 might look like:
1) Why do you want to level up? What about your current life are you dissatisfied with? Get *really* clear on this.
2) Given that, and combined with other desires/dreams/your personality, what is your vision for you life at L7 ("fully internalized ERE")? Get *really* clear on this.
3) Based on 1 and 2, construct a plan*.
4) Execute the plan.
5) Iterate 1-4.
6) Welcome to L7, here's your cat scalpel.

*Key principles to this Plan are the Renaissance Ideal, getting multiple skillsets to Compute or higher and threading them together, loose coupling, consilience, resilience, etc. In other words, RTFM.

Post Reply