Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

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7Wannabe5
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Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

First task might be reading or re-reading Yields and Flows-5 towards 6 thread.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“Jean” wrote: How much people are around or bellow Jacob on this forum? That would be a good start to get more examples.
- from new ERE Wheaton Levels thread.

I think I am at level 6/7, but my brain really works better some moments, days, decades...so some of what I wrote myself on Yields and Flows thread actually seems better/smarter to me than my current functioning.

One thing for sure is that I think Level 5 is wrong-minded. I lapsed into some “optimization” type thinking towards the beginning of my new giant project, but then it kind of made me feel like I was shopping at a mall.

Unfortunately, it seems like what I have only semi-consciously done is create an extreme challenge for myself whereby the only way I can not live with a grouchy old man ( which is worse than a full time job!) is to rebuild a dilapidated house from scratch while dealing with possible conflicts with criminals and code officials.

chenda
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by chenda »

Is there a table or chart to refer to somewhere ?

jacob
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by jacob »

The yields and flow thread: viewtopic.php?t=10897

The new table was introduced here: viewtopic.php?p=240072#p240072
It was refined a bit over the next several pages in that thread.

AxelHeyst
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

From the Wheaton table thread:
JnG: What are the lens other than money that have been developed? (I guess this also asks what is the lens being used to look at?)
Jacob: Have you seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPvftqB-WXk yet? During the "deliberate consumer phase (WL5-6) it's the focus on developing other skills/capitals away from the "spend money to solve problem"-lens. This can be technical, repairing stuff, or social in terms of connecting with other people over non-spending bridges or even personal development (there's more to life than becoming rich or giving one's money away).
JnG: Where should energy, attention and thought be focused to move from WL6 thinking towards WL7 thinking?
Jacob: On connecting these skills and resources with each other ala web-of-goals. Also see chapter 5 of the ERE book.

One of my two ERE Mastermind Group projects is sketching a Web of Goals diagram once a week. The intent is to habituate web-type thinking as opposed to linear style thinking. I'm only on week three, but I already feel like the practice is helping me think with a greater emphasis on interconnections and relationships rather than single nodes. These early diagrams are sketches, and each is very incomplete - it's just a process of thinking through how to represent my life in a diagram, and is only partial. So, I'm just posting my week 2 diagram as a snapshot of where I'm at in terms of working through how to construct these:
Image

Part of this process is taking each node of my life and thinking through/sketching the first and second order positive and negative effects. I'll do that for a bunch of nodes, all separately (which is a WL6 thing), and then take those elements and try to fit them in to a full WoG diagram.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

I think the question I've been wrestling with, is "what to *do*" to level up to 7. Are there specific actions, behaviors, experiments, that will contribute to changing how I think from yields and flows to systems? I get the explanations of systems thinking, what I'm looking for are suggestions/ideas/discussions around what one can actually do to move their thinking.

The furthest I've gotten is "study systems thinking" and "do the exercises in ch5 / develop a practice of building WoG diagrams". What else?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@AxelHeyst:

One thing from the book:
If you can’t solve a problem, solve another problem—an omnivore always has more options when solving the problem of eating.
So, maybe try to apply this?

guitarplayer
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by guitarplayer »

Maybe a bit on the side, I had one professor with whom I had read Niklas Luhmann's theory of social systems about a decade ago. It was maybe too early for me to read this stuff because I did not grasp that much back then, or maybe was still learning English and was struggling with other aspects of life hah.

Anyone here has any experience of engaging with Luhmann's work?

BWND
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by BWND »

Thanks for setting up!

I was looking at this earlier and there is a lot in the yields and flows thread on 6 to 7 as well as 5 to 6. If anyone starts to get lost as this thread evolves, maybe refer back to the yields and flows thread - it might be there is more work to do there (that's where I need to spend time but selfishly advocating lots of activity here that I can eyeball down the line :-) )

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

@7 so, for example, I'm going to be on the couch for 3 weeks after an upcoming surgery. I won't be able to work on solving my container build problem, help my friend fell trees for money problem, or my "ride a motorcycle around the West" problem. But I can work on my "increase cooking skill problem", "Make a bunch more product with a computer for my side hustle" problem, and "work on lucid dreaming" problem. Also "spend quality time with parents" problem.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by theanimal »

In that sense, if every project or action has secondary and tertiary effects then the goal is to arrange the actions or solutions within those projects so that they give off positive effects rather than negative. Am I getting that right? The ultimate goal being to create multiple independent positive feedback systems within your own life and eliminate those with one positive and many negatives (basic example being the salaryman who drives a car by himself to work everyday).

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

@theanimal seems right to me. Just a note that we need to be careful with words, to distinguish when we mean positive=good, negative=bad, and when positive=reinforcing (could be good or bad), negative=dampening (could be good or bad), the latter being those terms are defined in Systems theory.

And also, the idea that no module, or cluster of nodes, is highly dependent on any other, which would make the whole web vulnerable to collapse. The example there being if you rely on some volume of money to flow through your web, but you only have one Source of money (job), and no Stocks of money (Cash equivalents) capable of sustaining the flow while you find another money-producing flow.

From a money-flow perspective, ideally you have multiple sources of required money-flow that meet your needs, so if any one node collapses, all good, you have another source or two that you can divert from just adding to your Stock to sustaining your web. This is the point of the IR-Score.

But it would be a mistake to only consider flows and sinks of money - I'm working on this concept of "decentralizing" money from my mindset.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by theanimal »

@AH- Yes, thanks for the clarification. I think I was referring to positive and negative as in reinforcing. Not so much subjectively good/bad.
----------
I've gotten really into permaculture recently, mainly as a result of this video:
Mark Shepard's Permaculture Homestead It finally made things click for me and grasp the idea of systems more completely. If you watch the video, notice how he doesn't care what ends up producing! The system has been designed to give good results in an array of environments. I'd recommend it (permaculture) to anyone as a way to understand a system with non-monetary flows and benefits.

One of the key differences between levels 6 and 7 is that the system in level 7 is explicitly designed. From a personal standpoint, I am learning how to further expand my "homestead" as a system. If I was Wheaton level 6 mentality, I may just focus on having a large garden bed and follow something like square foot gardening. But Wheaton level 7 goes beyond the garden bed and diversifies the assets. I'll plant the annual bed, but I'll also plant fruit trees, mushrooms, nut trees, more perennials and berry bushes. I may have bees/chickens/pigs/livestock going around the property but I'll also continue to hunt/fish. The latter group with animals ends up adding inputs to the property and closes loops (such as eliminating use for fertilizer, pollinating plants, minimizing labor by pruning/clearing weeds etc.) The end result is still food but in a way that is diversified and requires less inputs. Similar to a well designed financial portfolio, certain portions do well in growth periods whereas others keep the portfolio afloat in times of recession. In permaculture terms, if there is a very rainy cool season, my annuals may not do too well but meanwhile I'll end up with a lot of berries, mushrooms and perhaps fruit from some of the hardier trees. Perhaps I'll place a greater focus on hunting/fishing and the system can continue from flows off the property.

I like to think of the home with a sole annual garden bed as a job and the home with the greater application of permaculture as dividends/"capital gains"/investment portfolio. It's the same thing. Just different names. But both are designed! I only mentioned the immediate "gains" such as getting food (aka money in other systems), but there are plenty others as well in the form of social capital, exercise, gifts, time outside etc.


Here are a few systems books that have been recommended elsewhere in the forum:


An introduction to General Systems Thinking
Thinking in Systems
The Systems Bible
Permaculture:Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability
The Fifth Discipline
Images of Organization

Does anyone have any other systems they'd recommend like permaculture or ERE, that better allows for learning systems in general?

And if I'm understanding this wrong or stating things that are actually WL 6, please let me know!

7Wannabe5
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@AxelHeyst:

Yes, but I think you listed projects towards the solutions of problems rather than the problems themselves. The “how” of the “what” rather than the “why” of the “what” and the “how.”

For instance there are a number of different reasons why somebody might want to spend 1 Jacob:

1) Gold star on forum report card :lol:
2) Internal drive towards frugality = increased competence and creativity with less money spent as rough measure.
3) Internal drive towards frugality = general conservation of resources with less money spent as rough measure.
4) Internal drive towards being not part of the problem of global climate change and other major ecological issues with money spent as rough measure.
5) Financial domination and extreme power with extreme frugality as just one tactic :shock:
6) Financial freedom with extreme frugality as tactic.
6) Member of planetary bottom 50%, so 1Jacob per year would be living large!

IOW, I think values clarification is necessary towards consilience. This can be tricky because, for example, maybe an extrovert and an introvert both value “social equity” but the introvert also highly values “solitude” and the extrovert also highly values “having fun.” So, their personal homeotelic strategies towards “social equity” would likely be along different vectors.

Speculating here, but as I understand Kegan, an even more cognitively matured individual would tend towards manifesting more values as in “The introverted me will do this for that reason and the extroverted me will do that for this reason.”

The Old Man
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by The Old Man »

I work better with examples. So, below is one such.

An Illustrative Example: Is this WL 4, 5 or 6?

To eliminate car dependency, relocate to a location that is amenable to public transit, bicycling, etc. The availability of online grocery shopping further expands the location choices. Uber for the exceptions.

When considering the overall cost of living for a given location consider the ramifications of car dependency.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

Trick question, we can't answer that question without knowing more about how the individual arrived at that choice, and how that choice fits with their values.

The individual may have been thinking "If I live in an urban environment, I won't need a car because I can walk/bike/etc". If that's the depth of their thinking, that's 5 thinking at best. If they're thinking "not having a car will force me to finally ride my bike more, which will improve my fitness and encourage me to learn bike repair", that's 6. Not until they've situated location, car ownership, access to grocery stores, and everything else into everything else in their life, have they got to L7 thinking.

For example a L7 might choose *not* to live in an easily bikable location, because a prime value that brings a huge amount of meaning for them is writing, which requires long walks along quiet forest paths with no other humans. So the walkable location has too great of a negative(bad) second order effect to be a good fit for their WoG.

ETA: This is the challenge with giving "examples" for L7. You can't take a bite-size chunk out of a L7 individual's life, and ask "is this L7 or not?" Because you cannot tell, externally, how or if something completely fits into someone's overall life system design, or rather you cannot tell the intentionality behind it. I think @theanimal hit the nail on the head when he said the difference is an L7's WoG is *explicitly designed*, whereas at previous levels it is unconsciously emergent.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

So taking this thread, and attempting to summarize a little,

L5 - you optimize every node according to money (e.g. brew your own beer instead of going to the bar 3x/wk)
L6 - you optimize every node according to yields and flows, not just money (so if some node has a big negative health effect, like brewing lots of beer, maybe you totally drop that node and come up with another similar hobby, like bike maintenance or brewing kombucha or gardening).
L7 - you optimize the entire system so everything fits together. And this is the moat between "being able to give examples" and "not being able to give examples", because the point is that you intuit the system as the unit/focus of attention. You notice if there are any L6-complete nodes that are L7-counteracting each other. Perhaps you are actively gardening and growing lots of food, but you also are passionate about music or motivational speaking and you slowtravel tour in your biodiesel DIY skoolie, and your garden languishes. There is friction between these two nodes which, taken individually, there is nothing wrong with them. The L7 will resolve this friction one way or the other - perhaps by mastering the art of skoolie indoor gardening, or moving their motivational speaking to online/rooted where the audience comes to them, or only touring in the winter, or whatever.

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Jean
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Jean »

Expensewise, i'm at L7 and my strategy has always be to remove everything with unenjoyed aspect, and make without until i can get what i enjoyed from it from something i already have or do, or from something with an other advantages. Building an entire system at once is probably impossible, so a high tolerance for temporary disconfort (or some form of redondancy) is very usefull to build a better system.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

On second thought, I think my last post, focusing on values clarification, might actually be more relevant to Cognitive Maturity Applied to Lifestyle Design rather than ERE Wheaton Scale: The Process of Leaving “Plato’s Cave” of Industrialized Consumerism. Maybe the elephant in the room is that not everybody on the forum shares enough of Jacob’s higher or more core values and/or beliefs towards Truth? Also those of us who share enough values/beliefs towards Post-Industrialized Producerism may still possess other strong values/beliefs to integrate. Will feminism survive in the post-industrialized future? How? Will literacy survive in the post-industrialized future? How? Will musical theater, caramel, and peonies survive in the post-industrialized future? How?

@theanimal:

I agree that permaculture is easier to comprehend at the level of my homestead being analogous to my lifestyle. Thought I had was that maybe acreage in permaculture is roughly equivalent to time in lifestyle and sunlight is roughly equivalent to vigor. Lifestyle design in the autumn of your life is kind of like gardening in dappled or dimming light, but with more experience.

Relationship therapy, architecture/urban design, and education would be three other complex realms that have been approached with systems level thinking.

From the book:
Instead of looking for ingredients (blocks) for recipes, look for recipes (instructions) for ingredients. This is strongly facilitated by carrying many recipes—that is, ways to accomplish something - - in your head. This way, the complexity is internalized and becomes a design problem rather than being externalized as a logistical problem.
This is now second nature to me with the simple example offered. I can easily create a wide variety of meals with a wide variety of ingredients. I can also create a variety of lifestyles with a variety of lifestyle modules. So, on this re-read of Chapter 5, the generalization struck me as a good way to conceive of “leveling up.”

In my extreme experiments with budget cooking which included feeding family of 4 moderately picky eaters on approximately $40/week for many years, feeding myself and landlord/housemate/friend (who unknowingly provided incentive by trading me rent for cooking inclusive of cost of ingredients) on $2/day ($1 each),I came to the conclusion that $1/day did not offer enough variety ( landlord/friend/housemate strongly agreed to the extent that he made me take a $50 from him, saying something like “For the love of Christ, go to Trader Joe’s.” ) and arrived at $2/day as happy minimum.

I also have no problem with seeing “shelter” as a module, but I can’t figure out if I don’t have enough “recipes” or whether I am being “too picky” an eater, or I need to “solve another problem” (for instance, increase my tolerance for living with grouchy old men who already have extra space or get weapons training so I am better at providing my own security subset of shelter, etc) OR is this increasingly a Level 8 problem because runs smack dab into “head tax.” ?

Obviously, my solution for now is that I am theoretically teaching myself all the skills necessary to rebuild a house from scratch in a neighborhood that is already halfway to post-apocalypse collapse. If I succeed, my spending level should be fairly securely below 1 Jacob, but I still don’t grok why some similar measure of frugality does not apply to fixing a house or running a business or choosing an investment or anything that crosses the line of domestic production for domestic consumption? For simple instance, sometimes my sister and I would go to the trouble of making shipping packaging out of dumpster cardboard and sometimes we would buy envelopes for our business, but this difference in resource wastage would actually tend towards inverse effect on personal spending. For instance, I might spend more $$ on dinner if I spent the afternoon folding waste cardboard. Obviously, the reverse can also be true. If I trade cooking for rent with a grouchy old man, I can take endless hot showers with no expense recorded to my personal account.

Anyways, I am almost certainly not connecting the dots very well (not even for myself :lol: ), but it seems to me that around Level 7, it becomes increasingly difficult to reconcile finance and capitalism with post-industrialism/post-consumerism. Obviously, you could still lend a piglet out for fattening and collect interest in pork chops, but who here is doing that? If we’re all ultimately going to have to be reliant on engaging in excess post-industrial production or skills in order to conduct post-industrialist trade, then why not focus on those? Is it once again the problem of “head tax” in the still industrialized world?

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by IlliniDave »

This is a challenge for me to segue into. Not sure if this should be included here (might be more of a journal thing).

I've already achieved all my accumulation-related goals. I have no interest in the level 5-7 vacation and experience levels. Taxes alone will keep me above the level 7 spending range. What's given as level 8 vacation/experience describes what I've been aiming for.

So I'll start with an overarching goal of achieving a "no distinction between work and play" lifestyle, which I'll call a contented leisure lifestyle (CLL). Based on knowing myself I can identify a notional handful of anticipated contributors (not a complete list).

-resource security
-active recreation
-learning/enrichment
-simplicity

The first three are candidates for subsystems. The fourth is more of a constraint or characteristic.

Being FI and focused on future CLL makes me a little atypical. It means within limits the game for me is not scored in money or trying to make ends meet (lifestyle cost versus money available). Ongoing passive inflows should cover ongoing outflows (chances are I'll be a net saver in retirement).

However, to keep things of reasonable scope to start with I'm going to work on defining a financial management system (FMS). Even though it could be thought of as a subsystem of any of the subsystems listed above. I'm going to bucket it as a subsystem of resource security.

Some ground rules and assumptions:

-If Western Civilization/capital markets fail catastrophically, I'll die soon after. I'm not going to approach my future with a doomsday prepper mindset. That would preclude contentedness.

-Although it's something I'll track, ongoing spending will not be a primary measure of successful subsystem operation.

-For now I'll start with the overarching goal of the financial management system being to regulate related activity such that my terminal net worth is equal to or greater than it is on first day or retirement (FDOR). Not a high performance nor elegantly derived design goal, but its a case of the FMS really only affecting LCC if its broken/failing. For an engineer that typically means unstable or malfunctioning.

I'll not flesh out every detail of what I'll be looking at, at least not yet, but I'll have a system with inflow and reserve (loosely analogous to an automotive electrical system) that can be augmented by asset selection. The higher level considerations would be things like money's fungibility supporting diverse systems/goals. Asset selection can also positively reinforce other goals while providing resilience. In my case the cabin is an example--real estate is a reasonable way to park capital and it's the jumping off point for much of my desired active recreation. Looking in the other direction, I'll want some fraction of reserve capacity to be available-on-demand, which enhances the utility of internet-compatible devices that are also useful for learning and entertainment.

I have a feeling this exercise will largely support what I've already put in place guided by intuition. But maybe I'm wrong.
Last edited by IlliniDave on Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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