Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

[Alphaville]

This thread is for discussing systems and how to better integrate it into one's lifestyle. Nobody is discouraging those topics that you mention but perhaps it'll be better off in a new thread elsewhere.

For example, if you are interested in discussing the wheaton levels themselves, I suggest the ERE wheaton scale thread

also forgot to answer above: that propositio was in response to @ alex's idea that i am anathema. it was rhetorical.

my original intent in this thread is still to help solve @7w5's problem which seems still lost in theory and unanswered by the systems & levels discussion.

was left more or less here:

Anyways, I am almost certainly not connecting the dots very well (not even for myself ), but it seems to me that around Level 7, it becomes increasingly difficult to reconcile finance and capitalism with post-industrialism/post-consumerism. Obviously, you could still lend a piglet out for fattening and collect interest in pork chops, but who here is doing that? If we’re all ultimately going to have to be reliant on engaging in excess post-industrial production or skills in order to conduct post-industrialist trade, then why not focus on those? Is it once again the problem of “head tax” in the still industrialized world?

which at some point requires concrete solution

because it begins, concretely, here:

Unfortunately, it seems like what I have only semi-consciously done is create an extreme challenge for myself whereby the only way I can not live with a grouchy old man ( which is worse than a full time job!) is to rebuild a dilapidated house from scratch while dealing with possible conflicts with criminals and code officials.

can the discussion of system integration solve this problem? and if so how?

[Ego]

can the discussion of system integration solve this problem? and if so how?

Can a system that is (meant to be) descriptive of a process solve a problem?

[Alphaville]

Can a system that is (meant to be) descriptive of a process solve a problem?

of course if it's an accurate description. we do that all the time with all kinds of diagnostics and repairs and developments and inventions.

so, how would you describe @7w5's concrete problem in terms of a wheaton level system, perhaps provide a diagnostic, and attempt to point towards a solution?

let's not do all at once. let's start with the description alone.

[7Wannabe5]

my thing here was when @7w5 said she was having difficulty moving " levels" i asked wht was her purpose.

The update is that I am no longer having difficulty. I figured it out based on a clue Ego offered on the other thread combined with reviewing what I already know about systems from permaculture perspective. Basically, I was stuck playing a game with myself in the “bargaining” phase of grief. Tertiary Fe can really be a problem sometimes.

I might start another thread which attempts to approach ERE concepts in the same way architectural concepts are approached in “A Pattern Language” It will be entitled The Timeless Patterns of Frugality and Renaissance or something like that. For instance, Van Living might be a suggested pattern which would get a number of stars rating depending on how certain we are that it is a timeless pattern. Most of the patterns would also have larger patterns into which they would fit and smaller patterns which would fit in them (as well as fitting into other moderate scale patterns.) For instance, Van Living could fit into the pattern of Communal Living within the pattern of The Campground or The Jamboree, and Basic Cooking Tools would be a pattern that would fit in Van Living and Going Hobo and Communal Kitchen.

Obviously, Jacob addresses much of this in the book, but maybe more explicit linkage of possible pattern nestings would be helpful to people at differing levels?

ETA:
@Alphaville:

The answer to my problem is that I have not solved enough problems, but I was also mis-stating the problem.

[Alphaville]

The update is that I am no longer having difficulty. I figured it out based on a clue Ego offered on the other thread combined with reviewing what I already know about systems from permaculture perspective. Basically, I was stuck playing a game with myself in the “bargaining” phase of grief. Tertiary Fe can really be a problem sometimes.

ah, im glad to hear, but none of that is a "wheaton level", right? and what was that @ego said elsewhere?

I might start another thread which attempts to approach ERE concepts in the same way architectural concepts are approached in “A Pattern Language” It will be entitled The Timeless Patterns of Frugality and Renaissance or something like that. For instance, Van Living might be a suggested pattern which would get a number of stars rating depending on how certain we are that it is a timeless pattern. Most of the patterns would also have larger patterns into which they would fit and smaller patterns which would fit in them (as well as fitting into other moderate scale patterns.) For instance, Van Living could fit into the pattern of Communal Living within the pattern of The Campground or The Jamboree, and Basic Cooking Tools would be a pattern that would fit in Van Living and Going Hobo and Communal Kitchen.

sounds intriguing. saw that pattern language book on wikipedia the other day after you mentioned. maybe i'll read at some point. but currently attempting to learn macroeconomics in a way that doesn't put me to sleep (i.e., one that makes sense). i dont multitask well.

ETA:
@Alphaville:

The answer to my problem is that I have not solved enough problems, but I was also mis-stating the problem.

yeah i know you well enough to be aware of the "not enough problems solved" part. you're coping very well though.

can you state that in "wheaton level table" terms? or does it belong to a different domain altogether?

also, pray tell... what was is that you were trying to achieve concretely?

[7Wannabe5]

@Alphaville:

If you have tertiary Fe (extroverted feeling)that means that Social Harmony is your third core value, but you are only able to approach it at approximately the level of a 6 year old. So, you try to be cheerful and you try to make other people feel cheerful by sharing your lollipops. The only way I could semi-consciously come up with to feel cheerful in the face of global climate change and related issues is to make it a game that I could win for myself (not in competition with others because social harmony and would make the opposite of sense in realm of resource depletion) by getting my spending down to 1Jacob. But I started feeling frustrated and resentful because my skills aren’t good enough to go that low without sacrifice.

Now I realize that it’s better if I don’t make it a game with a target, allow myself to feel a bit sad, and continue to work most on skills that play to my inherent strengths, realizing that is process or practice that is most likely to organically reduce my expenses as well as achieve my personal goals. Actually, bit of a simplification of my thoughts, but that’s the gist.

[Alphaville]

@Alphaville:

If you have tertiary Fe (extroverted feeling)that means that Social Harmony is your third core value, but you are only able to approach it at approximately the level of a 6 year old. So, you try to be cheerful and you try to make other people feel cheerful by sharing your lollipops. The only way I could semi-consciously come up with to feel cheerful in the face of global climate change and related issues is to make it a game that I could win for myself (not in competition with others because social harmony and would make the opposite of sense in realm of resource depletion) by getting my spending down to 1Jacob. But I started feeling frustrated and resentful because my skills aren’t good enough to go that low without sacrifice.

ok yeah this is psychology not wheaton charts.

staying cheerful in the face of shit is possible of course. see: the prisoner ivan denisovich squeezing small victories out of every possible opportunity. an existentialist hero of mine.

i get the pain of living below 1 jacob. i used to live on less than that hahahaha. not boasting about it, it was no fun. inoearned a lot, but we are currently in the process of fleeing that former condition. i'm not trying to become a fat consumer, i just think that money is not the alpha and omega and many other factors matter, perhaps more.

anyway...

i agree with your organic solution. it's how life develops. levels are for games maybe. but i think: don't forget that solipsism is not enough, and you love sharing your lollipops, so make allowances for that.

simple communication is good! it prevents getting lost in tangents.

speaking for myself, the way to make organic progress to whatever undiscovered destination is not to force myself into the mold of renaissance individualhood, but rather to develop a tiny renaissance community on the basis of individual aristotelian eudamonia and shared values. because whatever mbti functions might fit my description, i enjoy the company of a few good friends i wouldn't want to live without. and also there's stuff i hate doing and would rather barter or pay. jack of all trades master of none, and i'd rather have mastery and be surrounded by the same. mastery is not the same as overspecialization btw.

[7Wannabe5]

@Alphaville:

I am a Jill of all trades generalist and I prefer a wide open circle of friendships (why I want one foot in city environment), but I grok where you are coming from.

[Alphaville]

@Alphaville:

I am a Jill of all trades generalist and I prefer a wide open circle of friendships (why I want one foot in city environment), but I grok where you are coming from.

yup i also want more friends, which is why i fled the homestead and im planning to move to a bigger city more fitting for my temperament.

im a generalist as well, but enjoy to develop mastery in some fronts. eg. cooking/nutrition? i love eating and i like to beat the restaurant.

i assume you seek similar in the gardening front, whether on purpose or not, seems something you love doing for its own sake not to check a box.

i am better with animals than with plants so i might dabble in planting, but don't expect (or want) mastery of it. minimum requirement is enough for me. "plant potsto in the ground". although in theory i know more than that.

another area i want to develop is bicycle repair. i might trade some day.

otoh i have zero interest in bookkeeping though. ZERO (ok, i keep track, i run my ynab, thank jeeves for the automation, but that's as far as it goes)

[7Wannabe5]

@Alphaville:

More like it happens that I sometimes eventually achieve something like mastery in the realms I enjoy enough that I repeatedly circle back round to them. I can’t think of any realm where I’ve powered through to mastery straightforwardly. No internal drive for that. Smorgasbord? Yes, please. Marathon? Uh, no thanks, you have fun with that.

In “Scanners” by Barbara Sher, she describes The Serial Master, which I think might fit many INTJs and the Sybil scanner which is more like me. I even liked her suggestion to have different uniforms or costumes for each Sybil identity. My current pajama clothes or overalls dichotomy is a bit of a fail, but is partially due to Covid. Also, there are a lot of different things you can do in pajama clothes or overalls, so not the worst dichotomy.

[BookLoverL]

I'm not sure if I have anything great to contribute to this thread or not, since I've only just recently felt comfortable identifying my thinking as level 6, so I'm at the point where I think 7 sounds like a good idea but don't really know how one would get there, I think. Not 100% sure on my own estimate of my own level.

So - if I'm right, which I might not be - at level 6 then you're thinking about all the different types of capital and starting to use them, instead of just pareto-optimising your money. So at level 6 you're maintaining your social connections well enough to bring in social capital and understand the importance of putting social energy in, you've got financial capital coming in from work or investments or both, you're getting a bunch of skills that you can use to replace having to use either of those types of capital. I've been bad at social connections for a long time but the past few years I've seen more and more of the benefit of "if people find me socially a net positive - fun to hang around with, etc. - and I occasionally use my skills to do something for them as a gift between friends - they are more likely to do things like live with me (cheaper rent), give me free stuff that they were going to throw out or didn't want, provide emotional support, etc., and be a net positive for my life". So that's my improved understanding of social capital, which historically I had approximately none of, but I think I'm starting to get some now and finally know how to get some more once COVID restrictions lift. This also ties into cultural capital - I play ukulele and have a decent singing voice and if you bring a ukulele to a barbecue and play a relatively well known song decently, suddenly people want to invite you to more things. So I become "L, the eccentric ukulele player" to them instead of "L, the shy weirdo".

But still at level 6 these different things are separate, I think. They're not all tied together and reinforcing each other. The social capital is still quite separate from my personal development of skills, and none of the part time work I do is particularly aligned with my value system (though I do try to at least pick something that is neutral to my value system). I talk to my neighbour and it improves social capital and that's the only thing. I read a permaculture book and it improves skills. etc.

Maybe in my life being level 7 would somehow look like... if I join local environmental groups which simultaneously increased my social capital while also allowing me to work towards my goal of "increase environmental sustainability in my local region", which is a lot easier as a group effort than solo, while also writing poetry / playing music *about* things that are important to me, potentially picking up money from the music and from the writing or becoming known enough in environmental circles to get part time work in an organisation with goals that matched my own goals, and also joining groups for other interests of mine to maintain multiple social circles for different purposes, while also getting more of my exercise from travelling around the city and lifting heavy things in an eco project (rather than setting aside as much dedicated workout time as I do now) or at least exercising in a group to improve social connections, and also doing this would improve my gardening skills so I would have improved ability to grow food in my back yard, also chance to eat their homegrown food that they grew in their back yard while being invited to their house party to provide emotional validation, philosophical discussion, and ukulele music, also while continuing to maintain a good relationship with my mum so she's happy to keep living with me and reducing rent, but gaining other people who might be interested in me as a roommate if something happened in the future... basically trying to get it so the main activities I did were all serving several goals at once, preferably at least 3?

[Alphaville]

@Alphaville:

More like it happens that I sometimes eventually achieve something like mastery in the realms I enjoy enough that I repeatedly circle back round to them. I can’t think of any realm where I’ve powered through to mastery straightforwardly. No internal drive for that. Smorgasbord? Yes, please. Marathon? Uh, no thanks, you have fun with that.

haaa haaa haaa. same. enjoyment + work eventually adds up to something.

[Alphaville]

So - if I'm right, which I might not be - at level 6 then you're thinking about all the different types of capital and starting to use them, instead of just pareto-optimising your money. So at level 6 you're maintaining your social connections well enough to bring in social capital and understand the importance of putting social energy in, you've got financial capital coming in from work or investments or both, you're getting a bunch of skills that you can use to replace having to use either of those types of capital. I've been bad at social connections for a long time but the past few years I've seen more and more of the benefit of "if people find me socially a net positive - fun to hang around with, etc. - and I occasionally use my skills to do something for them as a gift between friends - they are more likely to do things like live with me (cheaper rent), give me free stuff that they were going to throw out or didn't want, provide emotional support, etc., and be a net positive for my life". So that's my improved understanding of social capital, which historically I had approximately none of, but I think I'm starting to get some now and finally know how to get some more once COVID restrictions lift. This also ties into cultural capital - I play ukulele and have a decent singing voice and if you bring a ukulele to a barbecue and play a relatively well known song decently, suddenly people want to invite you to more things. So I become "L, the eccentric ukulele player" to them instead of "L, the shy weirdo".

see, here is why i think these levels are not good theory.

ive lived among peasants. peasants have no money. all they have is social capital. they are great at it. so their "level" would be 8, or something.

at the same time, they can't handle money. no savings, all cash gets squandered, "borrowed" by relatives, etc. when an emergency arises they pass the hat--again a form of social capital or social insurance. but their money management and savings/investing is a lost cause--level zero. the community holds the savings,$5 per person.

at the same time their renaissance skills are multitutude. they can do a lot of things that were popular in the middle ages--chop wood, build houses, raise cattle, heal with herbs, plant crops, make moonshine, burn trash in a barrel. none of those is worth much in the labor market though. their survival depends on vigor and social capital. they live on less than one jafi a year but they pollute like the xix century. and their existence is fairly precarious--would be more precarious outside the usa even. i mean they survive but often in poor health, with missing teeth, and depending on public assistance. they yields and flows are everywhere, they are just not enough to prosper, and rarely include money.

so they're a mix of 10s and 0s and not by any sort of leveling or progression. when it comes to money they are a 0, when they comes to squeezing boons from the detritus of society they are 10s. same as hobos: a hobo is a 10, making a banquet out of a dumpster. a gigolo has 10 in social capital, can play those old widows like a violin.

there are many yields and flows on this earth. they are not necessarily an evolution "from" or "towards" anything. a little study of ecology and carbon and nitrogen cycles shows the way things circulate. eveyrhing gets used and eaten, not just coin

from the exclusive point of the sararyman consumer, sure: seeing something other than coin as means of supply may appear as a liberation. from the point of view of everyone else though, e.g. the large mass of the poor, the view is more neutral. a lot ofmstarving artists gomto openings formthe free food. btw i just donated a bunch of pandemic supplies to people who needed them. i was once almost in that place too, the wolf at the door and winter coming.

executives and sararymen have their social capital too: it's call the golf club. even if they never plan to quit money--it's just a place to make more deals and more money. then above that there's the yacht club, and the boards of nonprofit foundations, and davos, and so on.

--

lol sorry for the rant. it's not directed at you but at the "theory."

i sincerely congratulate you on your social advancement. which is very important and valuable. it's just... im just... it's not a level-anything in my view . it's a thing in itself, and a good resource to have and develop, and it comes at a price too but it can have good returns. in fact socialization comes first, and the money comes second. social capital is not a way out of money, more often it's a way into it. see: pierre bordieu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_(book) or alternatively: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058385/

[BookLoverL]

Well, the point of different types of capital isn't that one is more advanced. It's more that, at the beginning, people are inclined to see one or two as more important/easier to get (in my case financial and skills capital), and as your understanding moves to a new level, you reach the limitations that can be reached working with only one or two and see a more connected picture of the whole. For me, social capital was a big one that was missing. For someone else, it might be a different one that is their worst area.

[Alphaville]

Well, the point of different types of capital isn't that one is more advanced. It's more that, at the beginning, people are inclined to see one or two as more important/easier to get (in my case financial and skills capital), and as your understanding moves to a new level, you reach the limitations that can be reached working with only one or two and see a more connected picture of the whole. For me, social capital was a big one that was missing. For someone else, it might be a different one that is their worst area.

right, in hispanic cultures for example socialization is prioritized over academic/intellectual performance during the schooling years.

so social capital comes way before your earning yets.

and you're right, one is not more advanced than the other. hence it's not "another level" of the same. it's a separate dimension altogether.

there are social 0s and social 10s, so to speak. a social 10 can be a financial 0, and viceversa.

--

eta: but i should add: if the idea of moving up the chart makes you work on your social life, then i think it's great! it doesn't have to be "scientifically true" in order to work. i'm only ranting against the descriptive truth value of that scale, not the use value

eta: a bit like william james on religion (pragmatism) where "if it's useful then it's true".

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pragmatism/

[xmj]

Moin!

This is a very fun thread with many good examples how to integrate things differently. AxelHeyst's L6-complete yet L7-counteracting nodes, jacob's conglomerate units feeding into one another and 7wannabe5's design principles of permaculture with three purposes for each node and three nodes for each purpose -- all these helped further my understanding. Cheers!

I'm noticing that there's only so much time you can spend on cutting things out and optimizing the remains before it gets dull and boring.

The added perspective of replacing forms of capital interchangeably, and creating interactions between items that weren't thought of before would indeed yield those emergent-tier " 1+ 1 = banana", unexpected and unanticipated results jennypenny mentioned in Y&F.

[7Wannabe5]

This also ties into cultural capital - I play ukulele and have a decent singing voice and if you bring a ukulele to a barbecue and play a relatively well known song decently, suddenly people want to invite you to more things.

in fact socialization comes first, and the money comes second. social capital is not a way out of money, more often it's a way into it. see: pierre bordieu

I think the example of the modern day peasants only goes to prove that there is a limit to the ability to transform social capital into financial capital absent cultural capital and/or intellectual capital and/or sexual capital and/or ..?

My extremely wealthy friend who recently died grew up very poor on a largely self-sufficient farm and eventually attended university on armed forces grant. There he met a young woman who was majoring in philosophy and usually received As to his Bs and Cs in business/accounting. She dumped him because one time when they were out he wouldn’t buy her an ice cream. Forty years later, he was a multi-multi-millionaire and his primary “partner” was a middle-aged addict whom he had met when she was a young street prostitute. He decided to visit his college girlfriend. She was living on a small farm with her second husband and teaching at a nearby university. She was happy with her life. His millions were pretty much worthless to her. I heard this story from him and from his best friend. When I met him he told me he wished he could meet a nice woman with whom he could talk about the stock market over dinner.

Moral of this story being that one reason why cultural capital (and love) is valued is that you can’t immediately or directly purchase it with money. In Kim Stanley Robinson’s new novel about future world dealing with climate change, he briefly touches on the amusing fact that academic economists often come to the conclusion that the minimum price of “the good life” is approximate to the salary of an academic. It’s obvious that a starving Bohemian artist or a starving grad student has a better lifestyle than a modern day peasant. If you can install a starving artist or a starving grad student into a house with “a garden and a library” and maintain this lifestyle with enjoyable sources of minimal required cash flow , then a multimillionaire may not even be your peer.

[jacob]

But still at level 6 these different things are separate, I think. They're not all tied together and reinforcing each other. The social capital is still quite separate from my personal development of skills, and none of the part time work I do is particularly aligned with my value system (though I do try to at least pick something that is neutral to my value system). I talk to my neighbour and it improves social capital and that's the only thing. I read a permaculture book and it improves skills. etc.

If I was to summarize the structural differences between WL5-WL7 perspectives, then...

WL5 has one dominant resource (yield). For 95% of people that resource is money although it could also be something like a spouse who takes care of them or a social worker in the welfare system or a cow for a subsistence farmer. In the table it's money. There might be other yields but they would be thought of as hobbies and often they would be hobbies that cost money (heterotelic although a WL5 would not think of it in those terms). The biggest mental barrier from 5->6 would be "comparative advantage". Being in an "optimization" mode, the WL5 looks to see how the flow of their one yield can be increased (jobs, side-income) and stored (taxable, deferred, buckets). There might be an intricate system to dealing with that one resource but that's not what I mean by systems thinking. It basically makes no sense to a WL5 to spend their time on developing other yields. Until, perhaps, a pandemic lockdown creates a crises that makes them question the usefulness of [to abuse an idiom] "only having eggs in their basket/s".

WL6 is developing more resources. Their hobbies are no longer seen as cost sinks. They'll yield actual "goods" and some might even yield a bit of money by selling the "goods". (A WL5 would see this as side-income but a WL6 would see it as backup to primary income.) As the WL6 increases the yield of their resources in quantity and quality, the dominant one (here money, but again, could be other things) become less important. It might still be the biggest but it is not the only one. DW is a WL6 so I can observe this on a daily basis. Several things that used to be bought are now "Computed", "Coordinated", or "Created". Former hobbies are now free (bootstrapped) and people might even ask if they can buy some of the "creations". This is not to get money as much as it is to know that your capability for this particular yield is now market-competitive. However, the mental barrier here is that all these yields are still compartmentalized. There's a garden yield, a soap yield, a tax planning yield, and an investing yield. However, they're each in their own mental box and they don't talk to each other. It does not yet occur to make the lye and the pH-indicator for the soap making out of garden produce (wood ash and mashed kale). It does not occur to pick investments in a way that is also tax optimized. Yields are attended separately. They're still connected by the dominant resource. This can be money e.g. lye and pH indicator is bought. Soap is made and sold. Money is used to buy seeds. It can also be a certain spouse who can make tools (like soap forms) to bridge these yields w/o having to buy things. Most yields are at the Computation level.

WL7 has developed some (more than 2) resource yields to at least the "Coordination" level. I believe that this is what allows the WL7 to coordinate side-effects/flows/consequences between different things. W/o the ability to coordinate a solution WL6 and below still default to buying the solution in the form of a product. The mental barrier here is that the person has not developed enough their skill set to a high enough level (Coordinate+) to begin to make the connections w/o having them pointed out to them. Once that barrier is broken, "whole systems thinking" emerges. One becomes aware where yields are heterotelic (A WL5 would write it off as cost-entertainment, a WL6 as learning). This happens throughout the system. It's easy to draw but hard to comprehend the drawing since things are no longer compartmentalized. Creativity also begins to go through the roof. Whereas before there was one way to solve problems (the dominant yield) there are now several. One goes from being a one-trick pony in terms of solutions to being inventive. One is no longer thinking in boxes.

The Stoa talk has a slide on how this works in terms of how well the various capitals need to be developed before synergies emerge. This WL5 as the advanced consumer (fully optimized). WL6 is the deliberate consumer. WL7 is the post-consumer.

[Alphaville]

reading that, i get the idea of a proper research poster to be shown at the conference featuring the graphic of a spiderweb, or a 3d web, or a network.



more nodes + more connections = more development

ideally we want fully connected, top right (i just borrowed this graphic from wikipedia page on network topology)

there are increasing levels of complexity but i dont have the knowledge to assign numbers to network complexity.

nevertheless the emergent properties of networks are graspable by all these days: bee hives, cities, the internet, the biosphere.

what's left to do is illustrate with examples as mentioned in other posts above.

eg i have a hobby that pays for itself plus sends me free money. this feeds into/from other of our domestic and work and social flows, and it's fun and entertaining an fulfilling and not a chore. when i ran as a standalone business however, it was a massive headache that struggled for profits made interactions grating and killed all the fun because it put too much pressure on that particular node and if it failed everything else collapsed.

[Alphaville]

and for literary types, robert frost has a poem, "the silken tent", which in a non-nerdy way illustrates the graceful balance of the innumerable connections that can sustain a person in their desired/ideal mode of existence.