Food and climate change

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Dave
Posts: 318
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:42 pm

Re: Food and climate change

Post by Dave »

@Alphaville

I understand, and I'm sorry if it came across that I was saying eating plant-based isn't worthwhile, totally not my intention. The article does point to the benefits, I just wanted to add some nuance to the discussion that these population-wide statements are misleading/inaccurate. That does not at all mean that plant-based eating is meaningless, just that in some cases it means less than is sometimes stated. But of course less of a bad thing is still good, even if it's not as much less as originally thought (if that makes sense :lol:)

Congrats and great work, not buying beef anymore is a big move. Lots of interesting substitutes - I really like a lentil Bolognese pasta sauce I found in the No Meat Athlete book (I'm sure there are tons of other ones out there for free), to me tastes just as good as meat sauce versions. I have made a vegan "chili cheese fries" with bulgur and cashew/nooch "cheese" that was surprisingly good. I found/find it helpful to lean on these sorts of recipes in the early/difficult stages of plant-based eating.

Glad the burritos were good :).

Alphaville
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Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Food and climate change

Post by Alphaville »

Dave wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:05 pm
lentil Bolognese […] No Meat Athlete […] cashew/nooch "cheese" that was surprisingly good. […j
Glad the burritos were good :).
haha yeah, though i confess i tarted them up with a scoop of cheddar powder from my pandemic supply (since i don't buy cheese anymore for the week).

still, the rest was beans and onions and spinach on a homemade flatbread (was yeasted, so not a tortilla proper).

we eat nooch frequently since the pandemic started, but now with the less-meat regime i'm upping it to daily for the b12. usual consumption is with popcorn, or as ersatz parm with some pastas.

i've attempted veganism before, with serious books and all, plus a neaeby food co-op, but all i got was fat and weak, and i failed. so that no meat athlete book is interesting to me, and will look up in library, thanks!

i got tons of lentils so i'll give the bolognese a try. i'll reciprocate the favor by offering the john cage paté:
john cage trust wrote:permission required to reprint in whole or in part.
dammit, john cage trust!

i have made that before with a lot of black and green pepper, not dijon mustard, and it was great. this was before the internet, when the recipe traveled by word of mouth and could not be found so easily as just clicking here: https://johncage.org/blog/CageRecipes.html (you can read there legally).

anyway he's got other stuff there and i think cooking has improved a lot since the fads of his day. nevertheless he was a great artist and there is his stuff for inspiration. i think his recipes are maybe from the late 70s/80s with the "cuisinart" name for the food processor (thus they were known into the 90s).

and he's got a mushroom paté there also that makes me want to go foraging.

ps- note the miso pesto at bottom of page. intriguing!

Dave
Posts: 318
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:42 pm

Re: Food and climate change

Post by Dave »

Right on, thank you for the share, will check that out!

I've been experimenting with varying degrees of plant-based eating for over 5 years now. I wish I could tell you I have a definitive conclusion, but I've learned a few things that I thought I'd share that you could modulate that may help you prevent your issues with fat gain and weakness. No promises that any of this is backed by anything other than my personal experience. :)

First, I don't seem to do as well on the truly whole foods version, meaning specifically no oil. Maybe with more retooling I could get there, but maintaining moderate fat intake (can obviously be from nuts/seeds/avocados, but importantly oil) helps me with satiety a lot. This then controls the caloric intake of grains/starches, and thus weight.

Second, I found I feel better with higher levels of protein than are easily obtained eating only whole plant foods. I address this with a combination of 1) a modest amount of animal products, normally on weekends for me (good chance to include those healthy seafoods that meet the intersection of eco-friendly and healthy for you) and 2) vegan protein powder. I don't like the cost ($/g of protein on this is materially elevated from beans, grains, etc.) nor the extra plastic/bag waste that these powders come with (although not as different as you may think from say tofu when adjusted per unit of protein). So it's not an ideal solution. But having 1-2 scoops of protein powder, ~+45g, really helps me in terms of energy/satiety/athletic performance/fat (management).

The downside of the higher protein solution is the longevity research done by Valter Longo claims it's the elevated protein itself that's the (health) issue, not the actual character of the protein. I actually reached out to him to confirm this, hoping that somehow the structure of plant protein would exempt it from those risks (this was a whole other rabbit hole - animal proteins are lower in certain amino acids/the BCAAs [especially leucine, the most important/limiting in hypertrophy], which while helpful for athletics are supposedly worse for for your health). Not so lucky.

Life is messy - tradeoffs (for food, some: environment (with multiple sub categories), animal ethics, personal health, economics, energy, athletics performance, body composition via muscular hypertrophy/fat loss) and all.

Alphaville
Posts: 2432
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Food and climate change

Post by Alphaville »

yeah i do poorly with low protein, i just keep eating and eating to satisfy. but a mix of whole grains and pulses has been helping hold up some. tomorrow i might try the lentil bolognese--im a big pasta e fagioli fan.

i eat all sorts of nuts but i'll be phasing out the non-organic almonds due to pesticide use. i have a daily dose of organic peanuts though, either whole or as butter. plus seeds in my granola.

and i eat plenty oils (olive, avocado, coconut) and butter and not planning to discontinue for now.

i am also stuck with many pounds of whey and many cans of tuna, salmon, sardines, and spam (lol), all stockpiled for pandemic, so it will take a very long time to consume them at this rate. which suits me fine because they expire some time in the next decade. :lol:

white belt
Posts: 278
Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Food and climate change

Post by white belt »

I've gone down a bit of a rabbit hole reading about livestock feed ratios. I debated whether to put this in the homesteading thread or here, but I'll keep the quail-specific talk in that thread and talk about some more general information here.

I've started reading some of Vaclav Smil's work specifically related to meat production. There are 2 things I'd like to highlight below from one of his papers. I'd love to get hold of his 2000 book Feeding the World: A Challenge for the 21st Century so I may order it since I can't find it in a library. Here's the source I'm looking at that references his book: http://vaclavsmil.com/wp-content/upload ... dr2003.pdf
Vaclav Smil 617-8 wrote:Typical efficiencies of protein production via animal feeding are thus very wasteful: at least 80 percent and as much as 96 percent of all protein in cereal and leguminous grains fed to animals are not converted to edible protein. Metabolic imperatives dictate that any meat production exploiting mammalian or avian species must be a less efficient way of securing high-quality and easily digestible animal protein than is provided in milk and eggs. Consequently, if the delivery of superior protein were the only objective of animal husbandry, then all high-quality feed should be reserved for dairy cows and laying hens; and the only meat-producing animals that would not compete for arable land with humans would be ruminants, animals that are uniquely adept at converting feed that no other domesticated species can use,raised on grasslands that are not potentially suitable for conversion to crop fields. But people choose to eat specific foodstuffs, not generic nutrients, and their preference for meat causes many environmental disruptions.
Image


Perhaps this is all common knowledge to the well-informed here, but I was only vaguely familiar with the concept of feed conversion efficiency. The last 3 rows in the above chart are particularly interesting. This factors in the waste associated with a yield of meat, because humans cannot consume 100% of animal yield (except in the case of fish <2 inches). There are limitations to this metric because animals that require higher protein feed are going to have the best edible weight FCR and as Smil points out, certain animals like pigs and ruminants can consume food/waste that humans cannot. So from a systems perspective, this is a good starting point but not a be all end all.

I have the following thoughts:
-if one is committed to consuming animal proteins, then milk, fish, and eggs are the clear winners to reducing impact
-fish have very favorable FCR, however this doesn't factor in the environmental costs of converting wetlands to farm fish ponds, water consumption, energy consumption, etc
-there are many other environmental impacts than just energy from feed, see previous point
-these efficiency numbers are based on ideal commercial farming conditions, which aren't very well known for animal welfare and require large scale use of various pharmaceutical compounds to increase growth and reduce disease

Alphaville
Posts: 2432
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Food and climate change

Post by Alphaville »

white belt wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:19 pm
I've gone down a bit of a rabbit hole reading about livestock feed ratios.
that's helpful data--thanks!

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6834
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Food and climate change

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Here's some more interesting information I happened upon in a course I am taking:

Image


The wider the rectangle the more tons kept out of landfill, the higher the rectangle the more money (energy) saved. One interesting factoid is that if the world's landfills were a country, it would be the #3 emitter of methane, behind China and the U.S. Another interesting factoid is that eating processed food has a certain amount of ecological benefit, because most wastage occurs at consumer end. Trade-offs abound. I am feeling motivated to integrate more of the practices recommended in "The Kitchen Ecosystem."

Alphaville
Posts: 2432
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
Location: Quarantined

Re: Food and climate change

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:09 pm
Here's some more interesting information I happened upon in a course I am taking:
im having a problem fully understanding the graph i think because the olive green stuff remains in the imperceptible height spectrum...

what is "diversion potential"?

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6834
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Food and climate change

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Alphaville:

Diversion potential means keeping it out of landfill. So, for instance, centralized community composting is quite effective at keeping food waste out of landfill, but it doesn’t save nearly as much money/energy as improving expiration date labeling.

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