Food and climate change

[Mendes]

Can of beans, egg, rolled oats and/or breadcrumbs (quite a lot to reach firmness. For taste i use ketjap manis salt onion powder (something Dutch?) chili powder cumin, smoked paprika , salt. But of course any seasoning herbs you prefer. Mix in blender. When too soft, add Bread ctumbs. Form burgers, put them in the fridge to stiffen and then fry

My SO is a meat lover and beans “hater”. But these are always a succes. Should not take more then 15min to prepare. For vegans can Made without egg, but just less firm then

[chenda]

Well, it is true that protein intake in childhood influences adult height. .

Yes I think this explains the height difference between north and south Europe, as the northern diet was traditionally higher in protein than the south. Similarly south koreans are now significantly taller than north koreans, which has happened in only 40 years or so of economic divergence.

[7Wannabe5]

@chenda:

Yup. One thing that really struck me is how tall many second or third generation Chinese -American youth have become. Also, as I noted elsewhere, I have seen sad pictures of tiny Iranian college age kids (smaller than their parents) post-sanctions.

Early writing against the habit of cigarette smoking went on about how stunted, scrawny, and sunken chested young smokers would become. This was meant to be effective because in that era scrawniness was indicative of lower class status.

[Alphaville]

Can of beans, egg, rolled oats and/or breadcrumbs (quite a lot to reach firmness. For taste i use ketjap manis salt onion powder (something Dutch?) chili powder cumin, smoked paprika , salt. But of course any seasoning herbs you prefer. Mix in blender. When too soft, add Bread ctumbs. Form burgers, put them in the fridge to stiffen and then fry

My SO is a meat lover and beans “hater”. But these are always a succes. Should not take more then 15min to prepare. For vegans can Made without egg, but just less firm then

oh i see. i don’t use bean cans, a pressure cooker actually dispatches them fast. a little sodium bicarbonate helps soften them in hard water.

so, consolidated beans, yes. i’ve never used oats, but sounds interesting. i eat a lot of oats so why not.

anyway have you ever tried tacu-tacu?



or molletes...



both great— i think you might like? just do a search for recipes.

traditionally both are breakfast foods actually. the mollete is refried beans on the bread, then covered with cheese, then broiled (hence the appearance). tacu-tacu often served with fried eggs or... a little steak, lol.

-

does your partner hate *all beans*?

[chenda]

@chenda. Also, as I noted elsewhere, I have seen sad pictures of tiny Iranian college age kids (smaller than their parents) post-sanctions.

That's terrible I didn't know it had got that bad. Similarly though archaeologists can tell the social status of a mediaeval (or earlier) skeleton by the height, muscular development and also prevalence of osteoarthritis, which was was endemic amongst manual labourers after a certain age.

[Alphaville]

speaking of protein, which is such a crucial macronutrient, the document linked by @oldbeyond in page 2 re-sorts the co2 emissions chart by gram of protein.

i can’t link the image but here’s a copypasta of the list in order of carbon efficiency (from less to more)

Dark chocolate
Beef (beef herd)
Coffee
Lamb & mutton
Tomatoes
Prawns (farmed)
Beef (dairy herd)
Berries & grapes
Cassava
Apples
Cheese
Bananas
Milk
Pork
Citrus fruit
Rice
Fish (farmed)
Poultry
Brassicas
Root vegetables
Eggs
Onions & leeks
Potatoes
Grains
Tofu (soybeans)
Oatmeal
Maize
Wheat & rye
Groundnuts
Other pulses
Peas
Nuts

of course, nobody has chocolate or coffee “for the protein”

but surprise surprise: pork is a more efficient protein source than milk!

i always knew that pork was a good energy converter but this goes against vegetarian conventional wisdom... except for the cruelty aspect of course (pigs are smart).

eggs looking very good from that perspective.

and peas—peas simply glorious from efficiency + quality + price + storability + etc. sweet spot of sweet spots.

one could focus on the bottom few and fill in from the rest:
Oatmeal
Maize
Wheat & rye
Groundnuts
Other pulses
Peas
Nuts

[7Wannabe5]

@chenda:

It was bad enough that when I played hostess first group of female Iranian graduate students, the first thing all of them wanted to do was visit Costco or Sam’s Club. OTOH, they were appalled by the homeless population and the crime in Detroit.

[7Wannabe5]

@Alphaville:

Isn’t it kind of meaningless to calculate for onions when you would have to eat around 50 per day to get adequate protein? Nuts are obviously the most valuable because they also contain hard to get whole from nature fats, but you have to fight all the other critters pretty hard to get your share. A friend of mine has two mature English Walnut trees and he never beats the squirrels and the deer try to munch his fruit trees to death too. Luckily, the birds spare him some bramble fruit.

[Alphaville]

@Alphaville:

Isn’t it kind of meaningless to calculate for onions when you would have to eat around 50 per day to get adequate protein? Nuts are obviously the most valuable because they also contain hard to get whole from nature fats, but you have to fight all the other critters pretty hard to get your share. A friend of mine has two mature English Walnut trees and he never beats the squirrels and the deer try to munch his fruit trees to death too. Luckily, the birds spare him some bramble fruit.

correct, hence did not add to my protein list. i have them for sulfur compounds and TASTE.

this is where erudition beats formulas, no? detailed knowledge of little things.

anyway, walnuts not too protein rich, but pecans are local to me and have awesome fats (but low protein too). almonds have great protein but kill bees, and organic is very pricey. nevertheless, bang for the buck: the glorious peanut, which is also local to me, and valencias (what we grow here) make the best peanut butter, and due to dry climate present no mold/aflatoxin problems.

costco organic peanut butter is made from new mexico peanuts.

ofc i could buy direct and make my own...

[7Wannabe5]

Anaphylactic shock for me. I did plant some groundnuts on my permaculture project, but I was going to be very hesitant to test them. I used to make homemade sunflower butter all the time.

I would also note that the list only considers some of the 200 species modern humans routinely eat and not the roughly 50,000 species which are at least marginally edible. For instance, you can fry up something that is rumored to taste something like bacon by peeling off inner pith of maple tree, but protein content unknown.

[Alphaville]

Anaphylactic shock for me.

try pumpkin seeds maybe. high protein, good minerals, useful byproduct of the pie industry (reverse priorities).

For instance, you can fry up something that is rumored to taste something like bacon by peeling off inner pith of maple tree, but protein content unknown.

pine pith for vitamin c btw if ever scurvied, but kills the pine. currently on a tangerine kick.

[Mendes]

@alphaville thx for the recipees. I did not know these and will definitely give them a try

[UK-with-kids]

When looking at protein levels, how important is it to eat "complete proteins" containing all the key amino acids, or can this realistically be achieved by combining foods together in the same meal, e.g. rice and beans?

[ertyu]

this can realistically be achieved by combining foods not only in the same meal, but also at different meals. E.g. you can have the rice today and the beans tomorrow and you'll be fine. I remember the research coming out a couple of years ago, but it makes intuitive sense to me, too -- requiring complete protein at the same meal would hamper evolutionary success.

[Alphaville]

a good way to think of the protein problem is in terms of limiting aminoacids, i.e. essential aminoacids (we can’t synthesize them) which are deficient in plant sources, and so “limiting” with respect to our required intake.

roughly speaking, legumes have low methionine and grains have low lysine.

but a good way to think of the protein is in terms of traditional diets... which combine grains with legumes with other things.

rice is okay i suppose, but not a big protein source: but say rice and tofu works. wheat (eg pasta e fagioli, lentils and chapatis) is more potent if you tolerate wheat, and john cage’s lentil paté (lentils +bulgur) is tasty. but also similarly, peanut butter and oats is a great breakfast (peanut being a legume). or lentils and barley.

but there’s no need to sweat it if you eat a good mix instead of just one thing though.

plus things that are neither grain not legume (potatoes, nuts & seeds, some greens like spinach or kale) can fill the holes nicely. eg. hummus is garbanzo and sesame seed (garbanzo provides lysine sesame provides methionine).

even onions, which in the classic lentils with crispy onions supplements in part (bit of a long distance thing) the low methionin (methionin is a sulfur aminoacid).

so there’s no real need to get into the biochemistry as these things have been solved intuitively already by millennia of satisfied human appetites and some smart cooks.

but one caveat... those diets were designed for agricultural labor which might need a bit of adjustment if you don’t burn 6000kcal daily

so e.g. a lentil with give you more protein than a broad bean for the same calories. and rye more than rice. etc.

[tonyedgecombe]

A friend of mine has two mature English Walnut trees and he never beats the squirrels and the deer try to munch his fruit trees to death too. Luckily, the birds spare him some bramble fruit.

You should tell them squirrels and deer are a good source of protein as well.

[Peanut]

I think concerns about protein intake in general tend to be overblown. Remembered this older article,
NYT "Can You Get Too Much Protein?"

"The vast majority of Americans already get more than the recommended daily amounts of protein from food [...].

"But the average adult can achieve the recommended intake — 46 grams of protein a day for women, and 56 grams for men — by eating moderate amounts of protein-rich foods like meat, fish, dairy products, beans or nuts every day. There are about 44 grams of protein in a cup of chopped chicken, 20 grams in a cup of tofu or serving of Greek yogurt, and 18 grams in a cup of lentils or three eggs.

American men already consume much greater amounts, averaging nearly 100 grams of protein a day, according to a 2015 analysis of the 2007-2010 National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. The revised Dietary Guidelines for Americans, released in January, cautioned that some people, especially teenage boys and adult men, should 'reduce overall intake of protein foods' and eat more vegetables."

Article states that high protein diet does not preserve muscle mass long term and is linked to risk of diabetes and kidney problems, perhaps even cancer and heart disease.

[jacob]

+1 ... I suspect the "protein"-focus is courtesy of the meat/dairy industry. It's a clever way to create indirect product demand from a public who thinks the only source of protein is a good steak. Ditto the drive for "calcium"---like where do the cows get it from in the first place? (rhetorical).

[Getting enough protein is] Not something I'm personally concerned about anyway ...

[Alphaville]

I think concerns about protein intake in general tend to be overblown. Remembered this older article,
NYT "Can You Get Too Much Protein?"

"

there’s research pointing to low protein being the cause of overeating though

https://www.netdoctor.co.uk/healthy-eat ... appetites/

this is not to say “eat a whole cow,” but starch alone does not satisfy.

(you need to meet all 5 appetites, but protein is the most determinant. i’m getting mine from peanut butter this morning.)

[slsdly]

Regarding the list of sinful foods, I was never much for coffee. I mostly cook at home, and I don't prepare anything with meat, fish, or dairy these days. I avoid rice and favour other grains. I still have some cocoa in my pantry, but I've resolved not to buy more after seeing similar charts prior to this thread. The worst items that remain are oils (coconut, olive, sunflower) and sometimes eggs. Surely I get bonus points for eating eggshells, any edible seeds (i.e. squash), apple cores, banana peels, and such. I eschew fake meat, fake dairy, and have preferred to learn how to make new meals. Curries, falafels, and such. Almost everything is organic.

My motivation was complicated. Initially I was just experimenting with meals so that I could feed my vegetarian/vegan friends with acceptable alternatives. Eventually that's what I served everyone, and what I exclusively ate (at home) myself. These days it is partly vanity (look at me being so ethical....), partly environmental, partly health. I also am somewhat afraid of environmental toxins accumulating in the food supply as the world becomes more and more polluted. Generally speaking the lower you eat on the food chain, the safer you are.

With respect to the complete protein ideas mentioned, as far as I understand it, someone decided the proportions of protein in beef is "complete" without any evidence regarding our actual needs. While I certainly eat a balance of legumes and grains, I'm not too worried about being deficient. On the other hand, I'm not a body builder. If I was, I'd consider an alternative fitness activity, or just accept vegan protein powder as part of my life now.