Emigration

[RealPerson]

@Seppia. Why do you want to buy citizenship in a Caribbean island nation? No criticism, just wondering.

Has anyone considered a permanent residency card in Mexico?

Pros:
- easy to obtain
- reasonable financial requirement (most here could meet it)
- no requirement to reside or even visit Mexico after card is obtained (several months)
- low application fee ($44)
- able to open bank account in Mexico (FATCA apparently no problem)
- no language requirement, although speaking some Spanish is helpful
- discounts on already low prices (for being a local)
- it is Mexico (climate, food, culture, people)
- access to public health care system if desired
- no 180 day visa runs
- exit card in case SHTF in US (*)

Cons
- unable to import vehicle from the US
- does not offer a work permit
- must stay in Mexico during card processing

(*). The events at the US Capitol have opened my eyes as to how far things have evolved. Almost like 9/11 awakened me to the seriousness of the threat of international terrorism. The way Trump took his election loss, and continues to stoke the fire, does not bode well. What especially worries me is the constant spewing of hatred on social media, driving a wedge between people and exciting them. With 70% of Republicans believing that the election was stolen, we may want to prepare an exit strategy before the next presidential election!

US citizens may not bother with a residency card because it is so easy to enter Mexico. In case of serious civil unrest in the US, Mexico may not want to receive millions of "refugee tourists" and instead close the border for them.

Canada is the obvious other option, and it is enjoyable. But it is presumably much more difficult and expensive to obtain residency, there is a physical presence requirement, it is cold and the COL is very high.

What am I missing?

[theanimal]

Also, regarding Mexico, after 5 years of residency (no matter what type) you qualify and can apply for citizenship.

[chenda]

Also, regarding Mexico, after 5 years of residency (no matter what type) you qualify and can apply for citizenship.

Cool sounds like an interesting idea, presumably there are annual residency minimums to qualify ? Maybe it gives you other rights elsewhere in Latin America too. Are there communities of US citizens in parts of Mexico living the high life ? The high crime rate would deter me though I suppose that can be managed around.

[theanimal]

Yes, there are plenty of expat communities throughout Mexico. We had another thread on here recently where someone was interested in moving there where you can see some of the same topics discussed:viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11763

Minimums for temporary residency (6 mo to 4 years) is $26k assets for previous 12 months (calculated as 5000 days of minimum daily wage in Mexico) or roughly $1400 in investment income.

Minimums for permanent card are ~$140k in assets or $2.5k/mo in investment income if memory serves correct. (Based off 20,000 minimum daily wage days)

I don't know if those numbers need to be maintained or not.

Regarding crime, of course some areas are more dangerous than others. But generally, crime is a problem for locals, not expats or tourists. There is more racism in Mexico than the US. There are exceptions, but generally if you are white you will have no issues. There are blogs elsewhere of non-white expats who have experienced issues.

[Ego]

Also, regarding Mexico, after 5 years of residency (no matter what type) you qualify and can apply for citizenship.

Unless something has changed recently and I missed it, Mexico requires you to renounce other citizenships in order to obtain Mexican citizenship.

[theanimal]

Unless something has changed recently and I missed it, Mexico requires you to renounce other citizenships in order to obtain Mexican citizenship.

From my research, that is true for some countries but not for US and Mexico.

ETA: Apparently, there was legislation that prohibited dual citizenship between the US and Mexico pre 1998. Since then it has been legalized and is no longer the case.

Some countries that accept dual citizenship w/Mexico-
Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Philippines, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom and the United States

sources: https://usimmigrationforms.com/how-to-h ... nd-mexico/
https://transferwise.com/us/blog/dual-c ... hip-mexico \

[Western Red Cedar]

@Chenda

This podcast focuses a lot on travel but the couple talks about settling down with a home base in Lake Chapala among other expats and loving it there. I think they FIREd in the early 90's before it was even a thing. It's interesting to hear about how they figured things out before the 4% SWR was a common topic.

https://www.madfientist.com/retire-earl ... interview/

[Stahlmann]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlxfIdsDynE

[Ego]

@theanimal, It appears things have indeed changed since Mrs. Ego got her Mexican citizenship just after they changed the laws in 1998. Thank you!

[Bankai]

In southern Italy you can live super comfortably in any city except Rome for 1500€/month for a couple.

This sounds tempting. Potential issue could be the language - there seem to be differences between north and south of Italy - when we were in Naples, my wife who was fluent in Italian couldn't understand locals while having no issues in the north. Can you elaborate what's included in 'super comfortably'?

[RealPerson]

Unless something has changed recently and I missed it, Mexico requires you to renounce other citizenships in order to obtain Mexican citizenship.

I have looked into this. Mexico accepts dual citizenship but not triple.

[Seppia]

This sounds tempting. Potential issue could be the language - there seem to be differences between north and south of Italy - when we were in Naples, my wife who was fluent in Italian couldn't understand locals while having no issues in the north. Can you elaborate what's included in 'super comfortably'?

Naples is very unique in the way that it’s the only big city in Italy where people commonly speak the local dialect instead of actual Italian.
I am Italian and probably understand 30% of what they say when they speak the dialect.
But again it’s the only main city where this happens.

In Palermo you can find 80sqm for rent in the most central area of the city (near Piazza Della Marina) for 400 to 550€ per month.
Go on immobiliare.it with google translate and you’ll find a million apartments.
With rents being this low, in the best area of one of the biggest cities in the south, you can imagine that life is indeed fairly cheap.

[EMJ]

In a topic thread titled 'Emigration' I suggest we call ourselves and each other immigrants or migrants, not expats.

[Stahlmann]

@EMJ, yea, good idea. ertyu nailed this in other topic.

[Seppia]

@realperson because the Caribbean is awesome and it’s a good way to live there.
Realistically, if I go that route the easiest for me being Italian is Panama.
Based off of the $140k in assets to be granted a 5 year resident permit I should qualify for Mexico as well.
I have to look how is taxation in Mexico though, because tax optimization is super important unless one is in full runaway mode.

[chenda]

Naples is very unique in the way that it’s the only big city in Italy where people commonly speak the local dialect instead of actual Italian.
I am Italian and probably understand 30% of what they say when they speak the dialect.
But again it’s the only main city where this happens.

That's interesting. I understand that Italian didn't really exist as an language until the twentieth century, when one of the Tuscan dialects became the dominant 'official' Italian through mass media ?

I don't speak it but it has reputation of being the easiest of the Latin languages to learn, at least for English speakers. When I hear Italian I can make out most of the individual words, whereas in Spanish or Portuguese I just hear a blur.

@western red ceder - thanks that was a good idea. Mexico perhaps has an unfairly bad reputation for crime, and it's so huge there must be many different sides to the country.

[Seppia]

@chenda
19th century but yes you’re correct.
Latin languages all originate from, well, latin, that was (to keep it simple) the language of Ancient Rome.
So in some sort it way “Italian”, if you consider it as the purest origination of Latin, exists since much longer.
Since Rome conquered most of today’s Europe, Spanish, French ecc all have a heavy Latin influence.
Italians, for example, will understand most of what a slow speaking Spanish person says.
Similarly, once you know two Latin languages, picking up the third is piece of cake (I speak fluent French and picked up Spanish in three months).

Lastly, I think the reason why you pick up Italian better than other languages is that we speak so much with gestures it’s more obvious lol

[chenda]

@seppia haha maybe! Yes, and of course a lot of English vocabulary came via Norman French, so I'd probably recognise more Italian written words than say German words. How did you find learning English, or are you a native speaker ?

[Seppia]

The question is flattering but no I’m not a native speaker.
Should you hear me talk you wouldn’t have asked the question, I have a fairly thick Italian accent, think super Mario voice

Learning English happened so long ago that I can’t tell you if it’s hard or not.

Honestly, it’s one if those things that are like riding a bike or driving a car: you just know you have to learn how to do eventually.
Even back in the mid 80’s when I was a kid, we would start learning English fairly soon.
I think today kids start when they’re 6.

[RealPerson]

Based off of the $140k in assets to be granted a 5 year resident permit I should qualify for Mexico as well.

Just to be clear: I am talking about the permanent residency card, not the temporary one. The permanent one, as the name suggests, never expires during your lifetime.

For those interested in retiring in Mexico, I highly recommend the website of an early retired Florida law enforcement officer who moved to Quintana Roo in 2015: qroo.us. He has a dry sense of humor and provides a ton of very useful information.