Emigration

[Nomad]

I was wondering if anyone as part of their FI journey has considered emigrating.

Currently, I am in the UK and it is cold, wet and boring espeically in the Winter - also, it isn't exactly cheap.

I am considering options for legally and permanently having residency / citizenship abroad escpecially in warming regions.
Have other people done this, where did you go and how complicated was it?

[Alice_AU]

Hi Nomad, I lived in UK for 13 years (2003-2016) and left mainly because of the weather. I didn’t find it boring though)

The place I’m living in now has wonderful climate and is not boring either (Sydney, Australia) but is super-expensive. If I fail to provide myself with a reasonable retirement here my plan B is to move to the Bulgarian village where my mum lives. Last year there were houses needing renovation for €5000 and renovated houses for €20,000. There are about 70 houses in the village, and about 15 are owned by brits - some live permanently, and some come for summer. It is not cold and not wet... but very boring indeed... nothing to do except hiking, gardening, crafts. However a good base to travel to other countries in Europe, couple hours drive from the village to Greece for example. And Bulgaria overall requires some getting used to... things like ugly buildings (look through google maps and your eyes may bleed), ‘manana’ attitude when you need other people to do something, poor helthcare outside of big cities, problems with gypsies in some areas, etc.

[2Birds1Stone]

Yes, either in multi-year stints or part of each year moving forward. Currently testing out a year in Europe/SE Asia.

[chenda]

I got Irish citizenship after Brexit to stay an EU citizen, on the basis of ancestry. Some other countries do the same. Not that I have any intention of ever living in Ireland. I have considered living part of the year in Portugal though.

Though the climate is getting hotter, lockdown has been an endless summer...

[Seppia]

I have been doing the exact opposite for about 16 years now.
I come from a relatively LCOL country (Italy), and made it a point to build my career abroad, in much higher COL locations (Paris, Montecarlo, NYC, soon HK) so that my savings would go a longer way once back in my home country

[ertyu]

Same. From LCOL, worked HCOL. While country of origin isn't necessarily where I want to be, this is where I can afford to be if things stay as they are.

[UK-with-kids]

We think about doing this all the time - it's 6th July and I was just commenting to fellow parents on the school run that it's freezing cold today! I've lived in a few countries for various durations, sometimes working and sometimes not. Having a family makes it much more complicated though. There's lots of research to do on the specifics - see retirementinvestingtoday blog for an example of somebody from the UK who researched endlessly on Cyprus and Spain for example. Visa, age, employment and tax rules are very complicated.

[jacob]

I am considering options for legally and permanently having residency / citizenship abroad escpecially in warming regions.
Have other people done this, where did you go and how complicated was it?

First off, a lot of those international adventurers you see are not permanent residents but rather doing visa-runs every 90 days while renting. If you're comfortable with that, this is by far the easiest one to implement. It does require putting down ~zero roots and some countries (especially EU/Schengen) might require you to stay outside for X days before you can come back in again. Others consider those runs so much part of the business as usual, that you can get an agent to take your passport and get it stamped for you.

Obviously, if you have a passport that allows it, moving is trivial. E.g. a EU passport allows you to live and work in any EU country just by moving there. As far as I understand a Commonwealth passport allows the same for UK, CA, NZ, AU? Basically, there are certain treaties that make things easier or harder to move people and/or money around. For example, I learned that I can only get my US social security payments if I live in either the US or Denmark, so if we were to spend our old age on Malta (an EU country), I'd get nothing unless I apply for US citizenship. Weird.

I have EU citizenship, a US green card, and zero useful ancestors. I'm on my third country. DW is a US citizen. We've looked around the world and the short answer is that complications depend on what kind of passport you have, how much and what kind of money you have, and what you want to do in the given country, like work. For example, some countries are easier for me because EU. Some countries, like Canada, are easier for DW because NAFTA. However, I can't move out of the US for more than 6 months (IIRC) w/o giving up on my permanent residence status. In short, it's a bit of a puzzle to figure out workable solutions, so think carefully. For example, I'm an EU citizen, but I'm also the spouse of a US-citizen. DW is the other way around. There are typically spouse-based visas as well.

It holds that the better the visa the more complicated the process. That is, the more rights you're getting, the longer the vetting process.

Your standard retiree/independently wealthy semi-permanent visa would typically require documenting a passive income (like an annuity or a pension, they don't all believe in index funds or 4% rules) of MORE than the average income of the country. E.g. for Panama it's $1000/month. Belize is $2000/month, Thailand is $1900/month, and Ecuador is $800/month. Alternatively, one year of expenses (multiply these numbers by 12) in a bank account, either bonded or just a statement. You'll then have to extend these visas once a year. Typically, you wouldn't be allowed to work in the country which means that you can't get a job or start a business. You can however, typically, run a business as long as you earn your income elsewhere (e.g. remote work).

Most likely you'll also have to document that you have some kind of health insurance. You might not be covered in the same way as the natives. Point being, they'll prob. not let you get away with "taking the chance/going without" even if you're comfortable with that.

Another typical way to get a visa would be to buy property. There's often a minimum price which is quite high by ERE standards. Both the income requirements and home owner requirements means that these countries are trying to attract high-spenders and people who won't be a public burden.

In general, they want to see police records (or checking a box that you're not a criminal on the penalty of perjury) and possibly health records (or even sealed statements to the effect that you don't have HIV or TB) on top of the financial records + of course a fee (order of $500-2000). You can get a lawyer to handle this or at least tell you exactly what to do. There are people who focus exclusively on assisting expats.

Permanent residency might require passing language tests as well! Citizenship might require civics/cultural tests. Gaining these two can be a process that takes years between the day you start and when you finally get it. However, you might not need/want full rights if you're just moving for the climate.

Doing all this is just a question of making a decision and then getting the paperwork started. Having both DIY'ed, hired a lawyer, and had it done by employers, I'd say that paying to outsource it is worth it. This is mainly to cover the issues you don't know you don't know.

The actual moving, etc. is like moving intra-country except farther and likely involving customs (think: list of everything you're bringing). Some countries have a limit of how much you're allowed to bring in or a one-time infinite limit for the move. If you travel with a suitcase and plan to rent, it's a lot easier than if you're looking to ship a container pod across an ocean, etc. (But some people do that and again, there are companies for those kind of clients).

I find mastering the language very important in terms of how much I enjoy living in a country. I prefer to be at 3+ on the IRL scale. However, there are also those who do fine with gestures and memorized words for years on end. Likewise, if you're a social creature, you might pick up the language quickly. If you're a homebody, you won't. For this reason, I've only considered English-speaking countries as potential destinations.

If you haven't decided on a country, I recommend https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/ which gets updated annually.

[chenda]

We think about doing this all the time - it's 6th July and I was just commenting to fellow parents on the school run that it's freezing cold today!

You must be up north, I've got all my windows open and it's still too warm today Britain has unfairly bad reputation on climate, it rarely gets too hot or too cold. No need to waste money on air conditioning, and with good insulation heating expenses are minimised. Few droughts or major natural disasters, and long term it's a very good place to be for climate change.

Some people get too blinded by dreams of tropical paradises, there are always downsides, in some cases big downsides. Australia is facing a worsening cycle of severe fires and water shortages, for example. New Zealand is great but very expensive and very isolated, which is good for Corona but it's an expensive long haul flight to go abroad. No more weekends away in Paris or Berlin. Many countries in southern Europe are a paradise for holiday makers but the corruption and bureaucracy can make for difficult living if your not use to it. Gotta to look at all the downsides well

[chenda]

Obviously, if you have a passport that allows it, the move it trivial. E.g. a EU passport allows you to live and work in any EU country just by moving there. As far as I understand a Commonwealth passport allows the same for UK, CA, NZ, AU?

Unfortunately not. There are reciprocal Visa schemes which give some limited preferential rights but it's far from the open borders of the EU.

[UK-with-kids]

You must be up north, I've got all my windows open and it's still too warm today Britain has unfairly bad reputation on climate, it rarely gets too hot or too cold. No need to waste money on air conditioning, and with good insulation heating expenses are minimised. Few droughts or major natural disasters, and long term it's a very good place to be for climate change.

Some people get too blinded by dreams of tropical paradises, there are always downsides, in some cases big downsides. Australia is facing a worsening cycle of severe fires and water shortages, for example. New Zealand is great but very expensive and very isolated, which is good for Corona but it's an expensive long haul flight to go abroad. No more weekends away in Paris or Berlin. Many countries in southern Europe are a paradise for holiday makers but the corruption and bureaucracy can make for difficult living if your not use to it. Gotta to look at all the downsides well

I'm not that far up north (not sure I'd be allowed to complain like that if I was) - but it's barely 20 degrees today, which is less than 78 in Fahrenheit. It's meant to be the height of summer!

Anyway, you make some really great points about the advantages of weather, stability and location of the UK. I would do well to remember that, as the grass isn't always greener. Didn't Bill Bryson say that the English spend a massive proportion of their time discussing the weather, but the first thing he noticed when he came over here is that there isn't very much of it...

[Alice_AU]

@UK-with-kids, 20 celsius is only 68 fahrenheit. Totally falls into “freezing cold” on my temperature-comfort-scale! Those born and raised in Britain will disagree - I remember my work colleagues coming to the office red-faced, panting, sweating and complaining how it’s “roasting”, “boiling” and even “scorching” on those rare days it reached +20.

[Fiddle]

Born and raised in England but I took the chance some years ago to work in Australia and through that process managed to get Australian citizenship. Took 5yrs+ in total and the initial work visa was attached to a role in a specific company. Wasn't a walk in the park as the company I worked for knew my ability to stay in Australia was balanced on the job with them.
That said I earned well enough had a great time and in the future I can return to Australia to work or retire as I like.

[Bankai]

We're considering working for a bit longer so we can afford to spend winters somewhere in Mediterranean. South of Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey and Cyprus are all much cheaper while also having great weather (15-20C this time of year). I'm not sure about moving permanently as there are benefits to having UK tax residency: income from ISAs is taxed elsewhere in the world, personal allowance is different/lower, state pension is only adjusted if you live in certain countries. Also, summer here is actually quite nice. We're leaning more towards having a 'base' here and spending the worst 2-4 winter months elsewhere. On a budget this should be doable for ~£1k per person per month, and with paid off mortgage your only other expenses here would be council tax and few other bills. My back of the envelope calculations suggest buying a second home would only make sense if you rent it out for summers. AirBnB should have big discounts if you're staying for longer, especially in winter. Another benefit of only going for a few months each winter is that you can go to a different country/region each time.

If you're looking to emigrate, Eastern Europe is (still) very affordable, although winters are not much better (you get snow though). You might want to have a look at Hank's journal - he moved form the Netherlands to Hungary and seemed quite happy there:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4891

[Jean]

Israel has great weather and western standard of living.

[Seppia]

@bankai
In southern Italy you can live super comfortably in any city except Rome for 1500€/month for a couple.

[jennypenny]

There are several caribbean countries offering relaxed visa rules for people who are looking to work somewhere for a few months. I think it's to draw in tourist money through long-term vs. short-term stays during covid. That might present some good opportunities to try out different arrangements. With cruising -- and thus cruise passenger income -- looking less and less likely this summer, the offers might get even better as tourism-based countries get more desperate.

[Seppia]

I’m keeping en eye on the Caribbean in case they start do discount their citizenship fees.

[Alphaville]

I was wondering if anyone as part of their FI journey has considered emigrating.

always, fi or not.

having grown up nomadic (easy when family sponsored by a job, relocation costs paid for, etc.) my advice is don't just look at the money but make sure you're a good fit for the local culture.

in my day i've met a bunch of english travelers that all they do abroad is complain that things are better back home

(and they may very well be, but if so, don't travel).

i think brexit has hampered your options quite a bit so... what do you like?

eta: off the top of my head, would you consider bermuda? (eta: never mind, apparently it's horribly expensive!)

[chenda]

in my day i've met a bunch of english travelers that all they do abroad is complain that things are better back home :lol

Haha, the ones I meet seem desperate to tell me how much their adopted country is better in every way to Britain. And maybe it is but it's odd they feel the need to justify their decision to move to me.

Thailand does a retirement visa. Maybe other countries do.

If you're single you could always date a few guys or girls from another country and see what happens. Give you a locals perspective anyway.

Recently I have had dreams about living in Switzerland for a while, in a mountain chalet.