,,Grasp all, lose all"

[Alphaville]

@alphavllie
I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment. However, when someone repeatedly asks for advice, should they not be pointed in the right direction? or should we just assume that the lack of privilege automagically makes someone unable make strides forward?

Asking for advice reflects agency. It shows strength not weakness, IMO.

i wasn’t saying anything about the agency or strength/weakness of anyone. not sure where that came from?

i meant to say that we’re probably missing the mark with the quality of our advice

this due to advisor’s relative social comfort: “if it’s easy for me it should be easy for you”.

but neurotypical advice for neurodiverse individual might not apply—or even be desirable.

[nomadscientist]

The advice is the same, regardless of ability to implement. I'm not smooth enough to implement my own advice all that well, at least compared to some I know. It was also non-obvious to me, whereas it seems to have been obvious to others. I did not say anything about "easy." But what's the alternative? Try to browbeat society to like things it doesn't like because it ought to feel sorry for you? This is the very best way to become an involuntary hermit.

[Alphaville]

The advice is the same, regardless of ability to implement. I'm not smooth enough to implement my own advice all that well, at least compared to some I know. It was also non-obvious to me, whereas it seems to have been obvious to others. I did not say anything about "easy." But what's the alternative? Try to browbeat society to like things it doesn't like because it ought to feel sorry for you? This is the very best way to become an involuntary hermit.

left handed person complains that right handed scissors hurt them.

right handed advice: “that’s just what happens. keep cutting. make sure the scissors aren’t rusty and apply oil frequently. strengthen your hand.”

left handed solution: make left-handed scissors.

[classical_Liberal]

not sure where that came from?

a) You implied that the various users of this forum do not have the diversity or knowledge set to help with the question. I would encourage you to read a few of the journals around here and/or the excellent advice given in previous similar posts. In fact, several posters have overcome a lack of privilege in social interactions, including but not limited to self-reported, diagnosed on spectrum forum users.

b) You implied that the poster does not have the capability of understanding the advice being given, nor the ability to rationally judge whether or not the advice may be applicable to the posters circumstances. ie, realization, wait I'm left handed, so maybe I should use a different tool.

c) You implied these things may not be easy to do for the OP, hence OP would fail if attempted. ie poster can not overcome adversity.

d) You implied that the advice being given was of the wrong kind, yet, other than pointing that out, you proffered no specific solution of your own. ie tore down, but didn't rebuild.

[Alphaville]

i implied all those things? where?

i hypothesized and asked questions, then illustrated the nature of my hypothesis/ questions with a simile or two.

[classical_Liberal]

a)

i suspect than stahlmann might be more neurodiverse than people here are willing to take into consideration though

b) & c)

facing more societal barriers than just “people disagreeing with ERE paradigm”. a bit of the privilege problem all over again?

d)

i’m no expert on the subject though, just positing the possibility that this might be the case and we’re missing the mark.

Of course it could just be the case that I'm misunderstanding your comments because we are different humans, with different sets of personal values.

[Alphaville]

a) i SUSPECT is not “i know”

b) still under SUSPECT. also, “facing more difficulty” does not translate into “incapable” or lacking rationality or judgment. those implications—are all yours.

c) i never said fail if attempted. i actually suggested, if A) is true (big if) then task might not apply,

d) I’M NO EXPERT ON THE SUBJECT [...] positing THE POSSIBILITY: how is that a terminal pronouncements from which a ready solution must emerge, or else? it makes no sense to me to provide solutions to problems not clearly defined, nor answers to questions still open.

[daylen]

This time it may not be values so much as how intuition is being used, Ne vs. Ni.

[classical_Liberal]

@daylen

I was hoping you were still online scanning new posts, I thought you might pop in and settle this!

[Alphaville]

This time it may not be values so much as how intuition is being used, Ne vs. Ni.

ok then, i’ll be less “Ne” and more categorical i guess. simple answers to complex problems!

when someone repeatedly asks for advice, should they not be pointed in the right direction?

when someone repeatedly asks for advice, should the advisor not wonder why the advice didn’t work the first time?

ah, damn, i couldn’t help myself...

[daylen]

ok then, i’ll be less “Ne” and more categorical i guess.

Where did I imply that?

[classical_Liberal]

@alphaville
Great point! So, since we agree, who’s being more or less e/i?

@daylen
Oh no you didn’t

[Alphaville]

@c_L
if ne means extroverted intuition (?) then im the ne “thinking outloud,” correct?

btw, by “couldn’t help myself” i meant: i am unable to close the matter with a simple answer and must open up the possibilities again.

and yeah i am still wondering if the advice is advisable. there are other answers to questions.

e.g., the answer to my adhd is not “decide what you really want in life and focus becomes easy”

[daylen]

Yes, Ne is essentially brainstorming [externally]. Coming up with hypotheses and seeing where they end up, while also being able to backtrack and start over from a previous position (Si). Ni, in contrast, starts with the end point and [internally] simulates many possible paths to that end. This allows Ni to anticipate how things will probably end up by attending to the current moving pieces (Se).

Also, I didn't mean to settle the interaction. Just providing an overly simple synthesis(*) to think about in the background.

(*) For the interaction, not the original hypothesis.

[Alphaville]

@daylen

it was good stuff as to illuminate difference in methods. i’m more familiar with the thing than i let it be known

@c_L

i don’t require agreement on conclusions for friendly exchange, i only require agreement on the objective of the project, i.e., honestly trying to solve the problem, as a group. then the hive mind proceeds.

as long as we’re both trying to solve the problem (as opposed to “trying to win the debate”) we’re on the same side afaic.

[classical_Liberal]

@alphaville
Yeah I don’t need conclusion either, sometimes I start things I just don’t have interest in finishing too. I’ve been out on my bike all day, playing on the forum on breaks at various local parks. My energy level for discussion was high three hours ago, now I’m just a sweaty mess, content watching squirrels run and river water swirl.

So sorry if I start and leave things unfinished. I do it too often in here. Maybe i should start our own thread on a topic and stop hikacking others, then we can return to some semblance of the same conversation another day... but then Id probably just get board with that topic. Hahaha.

[Alphaville]

@c_L

lol no worries. i’m still intent on finding out what might work for stahlmann, but it’s not so much perseverance in itself as it’s adhd (brain getting lured by problem-solving candy—i do care if things work for him though, so there’s a synergy there).

[classical_Liberal]

Ok well on that note, to answer to your last point. The reason I still answer his questions here is because I believe asking them is the right thing for him to do. I mean, It takes guts to air your personal dirty laundry in any public place, even anonymously. So my thought is to continue to provide reinforcement. Systematic desensitization to asking for help.

OTOH it’s also very easy to begin to feel like that’s all one needs to do. When, in fact, that’s generally just the first step in behavioral changes. So that’s why I tend to do use simple advice in becoming more comfortable in socialization. Ie be yourself but not in a jerky, self righteous way. This based on example interactions he has posted in other threads. Only @stalhmann knows if he can or has tried that stuff. But to do so, if it’s possible for him, requires some personal agency and confidence that it won’t be a horrible experience. Again, that makes me want to reinforce the agency he has taken.

Honestly, many people have given this type of advice. Some even very specific internal practices to try as well. So at this point I think stahlmann either needs to admit he hasn’t tried those things, or that he is incapable of doing those things. Either way is fine, it’s just each one has different paths to the goal (Ni). Better general social skills.

So the real question is for stahlmann, have you tried this stuff, if not can you?

[Jin+Guice]

my wife and i have been infatuated with the idea of new orleans for a long time but haven’t actually been, haaahaahaaa. for many reasons, but one is that sometimes the real spoils the ideal. know what i mean? the bitter taste of disappointment?

anyway, off topic with this thread, but how do you like living there? i fear red states and louisiana cops and confederate flags on pickup trucks and that sort of shit. how do you cope? and do you have any recommendations for the kind of visitor that hates “tourism”?

Well, I don't know if New Orleans will fulfill your personal fantasy, but most people find it charming af (unless they get robbed... sometimes even if they get robbed). It's one of the most liberal cities in the United States (surrounded by one of the most conservative states). There are some streets named after confederate generals and a faction of the city that is run by drunken conservative good ol' boys, but they are either into some serious eyes wide shut behind the scenes shit or so amazingly square that you don't have to ever worry about dealing with them. Either way they are not trying to fuck up the tourist dollars and you can't be out in the street saying some racist shit without getting your ass kicked. The touristy shit here is honestly pretty cool...I hang out in the French Quarter all the time. Bourbon street is even worth at least one drink, if it's your first time. For specific recommendations I'd need to know what you are into. I'm also down to hang out if you come to New Orleans and I'm free, which I usually am, because ERE.

[Alphaville]

Well, I don't know if New Orleans will fulfill your personal fantasy, but most people find it charming af (unless they get robbed... sometimes even if they get robbed). It's one of the most liberal cities in the United States (surrounded by one of the most conservative states). There are some streets named after confederate generals and a faction of the city that is run by drunken conservative good ol' boys, but they are either into some serious eyes wide shut behind the scenes shit or so amazingly square that you don't have to ever worry about dealing with them. Either way they are not trying to fuck up the tourist dollars and you can't be out in the street saying some racist shit without getting your ass kicked. The touristy shit here is honestly pretty cool...I hang out in the French Quarter all the time. Bourbon street is even worth at least one drink, if it's your first time. For specific recommendations I'd need to know what you are into. I'm also down to hang out if you come to New Orleans and I'm free, which I usually am, because ERE.

oh wow—thanks!

what im into...

in the commentary to “down by law” jim jarmusch says that once he found graffitti under a new york bridge or something, that said “usa out of new york”, and that he felt that new orleans was also a place that is outside of the us, it has a different culture.

i also saw on a documentary about creole culture that new orleans was cooler and integrated before the americans arrived with the oil business, so i’ll take whatever is left of that.

a place that didn’t disappoint me when i visited: france. it was fucking heartbreaking to leave!

things i love: food. i can be a massive glutton when unleashed. i dream of muffulettas, crawfish, yaka mein, hole in the wall places with great stuff. delicious but not pricey stuff. i guess more than “food” i love food culture, by which i mean: people who really care about what they’re going to be eating later. not frontin, not signaling, not being pretentious, but really into the big dopamine rush of a tasty bite.

another: live music, jazz, from traditional to experimental. second lines. longhair. drinking in public. the fat sound of a trombone. strange things i haven’t even heard before too, i do have a taste for unlistenable frequencies and chaos. good percussion too, african. nothing country though, lol (no offense to anyone just not my thing).

i actually prefer to live in places rather than “visit”. but i would have to visit to see if it’s livable. i used to love a run down neighborhood. i don’t mind carrying a 20 in my pocket in case of junkies i guess—“tax” or something. in do hate bullets though , but i used to heard them at night back east and i’m not shocked or something. just don’t want to run into one

walkable cities & neighborhoods, walking all day, then catching a cab at 4 am, or better yet: places that never close and you eat a tasty fish soup for breakfast after a long night out.

lots of black people in the street, because there aren’t many black people where i live right now and i miss it, but not in a segregated way: just everyone mixed together, know what i mean? the caribbean brought people from everywhere. chinese black people. indian black people. honduran black people. italian black people. then you know the world is working as it’s supposed to work.

mardi gras indians.

the smell of water nearby, i grew up with it.

i do hate mosquitoes, but i wouldn’t mind seeing your famous flying cockroaches haaa haaa haaa.

so yeah: food music and bacchanalia that is not possible elsewhere.

nobody asking me “what do you do” (ughhhhhhhh). but yes to people telling me at lunch what they plan to eat for dinner haaahaaahaaaaa