Patronage/Matronage

[7Wannabe5]

@Frita:
Lol-I should play that card more often. Stay safe

[enigmaT120]

7Wb wrote:

Since you have shared some notes about your marriage elsewhere on the forum, my follow up question would be whether your feelings about providing financial support would be more positive if your contract did not also limit your sexual freedom and/or if your wife’s work in the household was inclusive of honoring your preferences for provision of such items as yummy salmon patties, fresh fluffy towels, and well lit reading space?

I don't care about food. But no salmon patties, I don' t eat seafood. She does fine for the house, it's one of the stupid reasons I married her. Clean house. And I don't even care about my sexual freedom, I just want daily sex. With one person.

And I can't have that.

And now I'm about to go to a Zoom session to see two people with whom I'm in love get married.

[7Wannabe5]

@enigmaT120:

I empathize. Spent many years in sex-starved marriage myself. All you have to do (and this is no small thing-took me about 3 years) is get to the point where you can very calmly and firmly say something like “ It is not my intention to continue a celibate (or near celibate) existence. My strong preference would be to share a vibrant, loving sexual relationship with you. Please let me know if you plan on joining me in our bedroom on Friday night, otherwise I will be going out in search of other companionship.”

HINT: What usually happens next is NOT your spouse calmly replying “Wow, I had no idea you felt that way. See you Friday evening “ Expect huge dumping of all the stuff that makes your request unreasonable and your alternate plan either ridiculous or bad. So, you have to put on your Super Differentiated Level 4 Human Suit and just let it rip without becoming too reactive yourself and make valiant attempt to listen for constructive criticism. Wash-Rinse-Repeat. I think it was on our third round of this that my ex came up with “You’re too nerdy to fuck.”, which was very hurtful at the time, but subsequently got me huge laughs on the post-divorce dating scene.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Classic thread. I’m assuming your three years of emotional tempering meant you didn’t issue in-kind rejoinder along the lines of, “And you’re too dumb to. . .”


I have to read the actual source material on Kegan emotional differentiation, but my gloss from reading the discussion here is that the levels described roughly correspond to

1&2: infancy and adolescence
3: doing what “they” want you to do
4: doing what you want you to do
5: doing what “they” need you to do
(did someone else already define them exactly this way?)

with stage 4 as healthy ego fulfillment. If you’re highly successful and ace stage 4, s/t your ego is so full that any further validation and reward will indeed mean your cup runneth over, then continuing along same path seems more like regression than stasis. This is where I’d peg Jay Leno or Jerry Seinfeld when buying their 19th rare classic auto. My first thought of a potential level 5 in the same realm was sponsoring promising youngsters gifted with mechanical or artistic skills in restoring and fine tuning classic cars, such that they were able to live comfortably off their skills and bring greater joy into the world. Which would indeed be patronage. QED. Thread premise is affirmed!

[7Wannabe5]

I’m assuming your three years of emotional tempering meant you didn’t issue in-kind rejoinder along the lines of, “And you’re too dumb to. . .”

Correct. I "held on to myself." Unfortunately, my ex proceeded to break a counter top, so it wasn't a highly productive "session in the crucible." I should note that my advice in post above amounts to extreme Cliffs notes version of advice offered by Schnarch in "Passionate Marriage." Another important note would be that in my experience, and that of some others I've known, Schnarchian therapy often has a gender divide in effectiveness. IOW, if the male (human who prefers to be in masculine energy) partner learns how to stand firm in a place of greater autonomy within the relationship, the couple's sex life will quite frequently improve. When the female (human who prefers to be in feminine energy) partner does this, she will be better off herself, but more often the marriage will fail. What does often work is the more difficult practice analogous to "doing it backwards in heels" which requires first gaining core autonomy and then assuming strong submissive posture AKA relaxing in feminine energy.

Unlike Schnarch, Kegan seems to be fairly accepting of the relatively "sex dead" nature of long-term marriage or similar relationships(if I am correctly reading sub-text.) He suggests that acceptance of more companionate relationship is sign of Level 4 maturity. I can't agree because this seems more like lack of full awareness or skills to me. Like you know how to grow a relationship, but you don't know how to occasionally hard-prune it back to promote more flowers and fruit.

Anyways, I'm not sure about your use of "want" vs. "need", but you are correct that the levels alternate in terms of growth towards autonomy/differentiation/individuation vs integration/social perspective. OTOH, I may be wrong, but I don't think you have to achieve state of full ego validation in order to transcend from Level 4 to Level 5; it's more like your level of mental development no longer makes that task of primary interest. Very roughly analogous to realizing that Tic-Tac-Toe is no longer an interesting game combined with the lack of desire to go back in time and attend your high school prom at age 50 (even if you might appreciate return of your high school physique/vigor towards your current interests- cusp of Level 5 might also be where the expression "Youth is wasted on the young" is generated )