Apartment homesteading?

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white belt
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by white belt »

Alphaville wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:00 pm

my balcony is not endless, due to pollution and birds, i.e. not a clean environment for microgreens. anything from traffic to seasonal forest fires will deposit soot. and zoonosis is real--sprouts can harbor stuff.

(eta: but im trying to sort out the space for indoor microgreens, actually)

for potted plants, im buying cheap good dirt (not fertilizer). just a seasonal bicycle ride away and it's done.
Sorry, I meant that microgreens are best suited for indoors, but your balcony could be used for dwarf fruit trees in containers, berries growing on vines, and conventional vegetables (suitability of course depends on your climate). I would think rinsing fruits/veggies should deal with the soot issue, and if there is serious concern about zoonosis then you obviously want to cook them first. Netting can be used to protect your bounty from critters.

Alphaville wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:00 pm
but yes, decomposing and reusing discards is what nature does. the question is if the decomposition phase has to happen inside my 4 walls. i am not sure about that.

also, maybe bokashi could work better than worms at my scale, since i'm good with microbes. but don't know yet. too many options/variables.
I am also curious about bokashi, but that is still going to require some space and I'm not entirely sure what you do with the output. It seems it technically is fermentation not composting, so I think there are some differences in application.

Alphaville wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:00 pm
i get the little produce market idea, more like a produce farm actually, but here it's only at toy level with very limited outputs, hence i'm wondering if worth it (for me) to do the entire carbon/nitrogen/phosphorus cycle here, or if it's more worth it for me to just purchase inputs (dirt) and just perform the anabolic phase so to speak.
I actually disagree about the limited outputs. If I use microgreens as my nutrient dense leafy greens, then I can grow all of my vegetable needs by using only one tray under the light (see Sky's method posted earlier). Since I can fit 3 trays under my grow lights, I could feasibly scale it up to provide all vegetable needs for up to 3 people. This is assuming each person is consuming 100g a day of microgreens, which is a lot but would be similar to a decent sized salad for lunch and dinner in terms of quantity. Since eating only microgreens for vegetables might lead to some monotony, that's where things like root vegetables, herbs, tomatoes, peppers, etc in containers come in to spice things up, but these are mostly just providing flavor variety and perhaps some extra micronutrients.

Another project on my list is dwarf fruit trees in containers. In my region, with proper planning I could have a continuous harvest of fruit for 6 months of the year, which in combination with canning/storage techniques could last the entire year. Maybe something like berries in May (technically bushes not a tree), peaches in June, nectarines in July, apples and pears in August/September/October. Sorry if these examples are specific to my region, but you get the idea. Quick google search says I can purchase such trees at fruiting age for $30-60 each depending on the variety. I suspect such a scheme would provide enough fruit for 2-3 people.

So with those 2 previous systems, I'm looking at providing all of my fruits and veggies on site without external input after the initial establishment. Worms/bokashi should provide me with adequate fertilizer, so I'm just restocking on seeds each year because microgreens use a lot of seeds.

The rest of my diet is staples (flour, grains, legumes) which are easy to stockpile for long periods of time, and proteins which are a bit trickier. We've beaten the dead horse quite a bit on the animal protein challenges in this space, so I'll just reiterate that in an ideal world I transform stored grains into eggs with quail and transform prunings from fruit trees, vegetable waste, garden waste, etc into milk with goats. Bees help to pollinate my fruit trees and provide honey. The animals are not feasible in all situations, but that's at least how I'd design my homestead system. Maybe my potato tower concept will work enough to reduce the requirements for taking in so many staples from elsewhere.

Alphaville wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:00 pm

i tried when i brought in to keep the worms indoors. and they have a musty smell-- as they should. but i couldn't sleep with the musty smell, it messes with my sensory input, and i value good sleep above most things. plus if something is going wrong i gotta be able to smell it, not have it masked by worms. my nose is my sentry--i'm this household's guard dog, and that takes priority over other concerns.
I think the odor is due to your bag design. My bin only has that earthy smell when I take the lid off, but otherwise does not give off any odors.

Alphaville wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:00 pm
eta, further: i'm thinking if it's later proven unworkable to decompose organic matter within my 4 walls, i might be able to find a local composter that could welcome my materials towards their pile. e.g. neighborhood gardens. which would point to the importance of neighborhood for apartment dwellers. i.e., apartments are not space stations.
Yes, I think this is essential and something I'm still wrestling with myself. Neighborhood gardens are a well-established route, but I think it could also be possible to create new solutions. I'm thinking of space on apartment rooftops, or perhaps talking to management and squaring off a section of the apartment grounds for a community garden. I would think if you can get a band of neighbors together then you should have a lot more bargaining power.

Retrosuburbia talks a bit how such a community would eventually evolve into some kind of specialization. E.g. give your used coffee grounds and sawdust to Dave in exchange for getting some of his mushroom harvest, give your weeds and prunings to Jill because she feeds them to her goats and in exchange get some goat milk, give scrap wood to Mike because he makes furniture, and so on. Maybe a further evolution of that would be a community biodigester or compost toilet system to manage waste on site, but then we're talking about stuff that's way outside of mainstream code and structure in the USA.

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Alphaville
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Alphaville »

white belt wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:52 pm
Sorry, I meant that microgreens are best suited for indoors, but your balcony could be used for dwarf fruit trees in containers, berries growing on vines, and conventional vegetables (suitability of course depends on your climate). I would think rinsing fruits/veggies should deal with the soot issue, and if there is serious concern about zoonosis then you obviously want to cook them first. Netting can be used to protect your bounty from critters.
right, so i though of beans. since they come in a pod, i can ditch the sooty pod and eat the clean frijoles. microgreens that are too delicate to wash hard can go indoors.
white belt wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:52 pm
I am also curious about bokashi, but that is still going to require some space and I'm not entirely sure what you do with the output. It seems it technically is fermentation not composting, so I think there are some differences in application.
it works as fertilizer i think. you're decomposing by different means, but the end is more or less the same. also, promoting microbial activity in the soil is a good thing.
white belt wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:52 pm
I actually disagree about the limited outputs. If I use microgreens as my nutrient dense leafy greens, then I can grow all of my vegetable needs by using only one tray under the light (see Sky's method posted earlier). Since I can fit 3 trays under my grow lights, I could feasibly scale it up to provide all vegetable needs for up to 3 people. This is assuming each person is consuming 100g a day of microgreens, which is a lot but would be similar to a decent sized salad for lunch and dinner in terms of quantity. Since eating only microgreens for vegetables might lead to some monotony, that's where things like root vegetables, herbs, tomatoes, peppers, etc in containers come in to spice things up, but these are mostly just providing flavor variety and perhaps some extra micronutrients.
right, but here we're 2 people in our apartment, we both work from home full or part time, plus we have 2 hobby benches (hers for arts/crafts, mine mostly for repairs--bike first, other things later), computer desks for work and profitable hobbies, a stereo, a tv, etc etc. plus my kitchen is stocked with tools and supplies.

we can't turn the whole place into a greenhouse (but it would be nice, hah, or the botanical gardens).
white belt wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:52 pm
Another project on my list is dwarf fruit trees in containers. In my region, with proper planning I could have a continuous harvest of fruit for 6 months of the year, which in combination with canning/storage techniques could last the entire year. Maybe something like berries in May (technically bushes not a tree), peaches in June, nectarines in July, apples and pears in August/September/October. Sorry if these examples are specific to my region, but you get the idea. Quick google search says I can purchase such trees at fruiting age for $30-60 each depending on the variety. I suspect such a scheme would provide enough fruit for 2-3 people.
in my high desert cabin i could forage for pinyon nuts (high protein/fat/calories) and very bitter juniper berries which can only be eaten in small quantities--took some big old trees and quite a bit of acreage, but wasnt enough to really eat daily--more of a country luxury (pinyon sells for $$).

to grow as you suggest i'd need either a separate greenhouse, or a large loft... and that would have to be my occupation. btw the dutch are aces at operating greenhouses, and export all over the world, but ive no idea how they do it.

also my experience is that when you grow your own food, that is what you do most of the time, and where you put most of your attention. so there are tradeoffs.
white belt wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:52 pm
So with those 2 previous systems, I'm looking at providing all of my fruits and veggies on site without external input after the initial establishment. Worms/bokashi should provide me with adequate fertilizer, so I'm just restocking on seeds each year because microgreens use a lot of seeds.
i look forward to hearing the results. i suspect you might hit some time/attention/space constraints. but where you hit them will be the interesting part. life isn't a formula but a process of discovery, and there's the fun.
white belt wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:52 pm
The rest of my diet is staples (flour, grains, legumes) which are easy to stockpile for long periods of time, and proteins which are a bit trickier. We've beaten the dead horse quite a bit on the animal protein challenges in this space, so I'll just reiterate that in an ideal world I transform stored grains into eggs with quail and transform prunings from fruit trees, vegetable waste, garden waste, etc into milk with goats. Bees help to pollinate my fruit trees and provide honey. The animals are not feasible in all situations, but that's at least how I'd design my homestead system. Maybe my potato tower concept will work enough to reduce the requirements for taking in so many staples from elsewhere.
i think you really really really wanna farm. and i think you should probably go for it if you can. i posted this and other references in the retrofitting thread, but check out "the quarter acre farm" for *many* great ideas about intensive polyculture.

see here: viewtopic.php?p=241893#p241893
white belt wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:52 pm
I think the odor is due to your bag design. My bin only has that earthy smell when I take the lid off, but otherwise does not give off any odors.
maybe? but that was when i brought them home originally, they came with the smell. it was nice, but a bit too strong, so i took it outside.

i have a really good nose though, which is why im into food, etc. i always know what's going on around here by the smells.

but yes, part of this is also talking myself into either finding or ponying up for a proper crate like the one in the pamphlet you shared. small, low-cost experiment, one small step for improvement/observation.
white belt wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:52 pm
Yes, I think this is essential and something I'm still wrestling with myself. Neighborhood gardens are a well-established route, but I think it could also be possible to create new solutions. I'm thinking of space on apartment rooftops, or perhaps talking to management and squaring off a section of the apartment grounds for a community garden. I would think if you can get a band of neighbors together then you should have a lot more bargaining power.
in this here desert you can get mice if you do it wrong... i'd rather have the pile elsewhere :lol:
white belt wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:52 pm
Retrosuburbia talks a bit how such a community would eventually evolve into some kind of specialization. E.g. give your used coffee grounds and sawdust to Dave in exchange for getting some of his mushroom harvest, give your weeds and prunings to Jill because she feeds them to her goats and in exchange get some goat milk, give scrap wood to Mike because he makes furniture, and so on. Maybe a further evolution of that would be a community biodigester or compost toilet system to manage waste on site, but then we're talking about stuff that's way outside of mainstream code and structure in the USA.
yeah, pretty much that's what i'm considering, but less transactional. i give them my trash, if at the end of the season they throw me some tomatoes, great. if not, we still keep nutrients in the local ecosystem and everyone benefits.

white belt
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by white belt »

@Alphaville

The difference between what I'm talking about and farming is I have no interest in creating surplus crops to sell for profit. In fact, I'm not really interested in profits at all. I make more money from my salaryman job gross (~$110k) than Curtis Stone's entire 1/4 acre farm that requires at least 2 full time employees and likely way more hours than a 9-5 job (at least according to the 2017 video I watched).

Rather, I'm more interested in things from a self-sufficiency, resiliency, skill-development, and ultimately anti-fragility perspective. My goal is to devise solutions that are minimally labor/time intensive so that I can still do them while working my full time job and having other hobbies besides spending every waking moment outside of my job on food production. I also have some strange infatuation with being able to go long periods of time without having to visit a grocery store.

Microgreens are one such "shortcut." No farmer in their right mind would grow microgreens purely for their own consumption because they have such a high profit margin, but I'm more interested in the efficiency and nutrition densely packed into a small space. Using something like Sky's "Papa Blue Shirt" method requires ~30 minutes a week, split into two ~15 minute sessions 3 days apart, using 4 sqft of space on an indoor shelf. How long does it take to pick up fresh produce from a market or store?

I suspect dwarf fruit trees in containers are another such "shortcut" based on what I've seen done on youtube, but I'll have to hold off on final assessment until I'm able to implement it myself.

Regarding the compost pile discussion, to me a traditional compost pile is a non-starter in an urban environment. Bokashi, worms, or a passive sealed barrel compost system are the only viable options in my opinion due to large population of nuisance critters (mice, rats, racoons, cats, dogs, opossum, etc).

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Alphaville
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Alphaville »

white belt wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:01 pm
I'm not really interested in profits at all.[...]
Rather, I'm more interested in things from a self-sufficiency, resiliency, skill-development, and ultimately anti-fragility perspective.

yeah quarter acre farm is not about farming for profit but about self-sufficiency, dwarf goats included. check out the book--i suspect you might like it. if you hate it, just return it to the library ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

eta: wait, no, it was this one! https://www.amazon.com/dp/1602399840/

inshouldmgo edit my original post. but there are variations on the same.
Last edited by Alphaville on Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

white belt
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by white belt »

Alphaville wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:03 pm
yeah quarter acre farm is not about farming for profit but about self-sufficiency. check out the book--i suspect you might like it. if you hate it, just return it to the library ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Oh I misunderstood that it's a book. I'll add it to my list. I just searched on youtube and a Curtis Stone video was the first thing to come up so I assumed that's what you are referring to. The most comprehensive resource for my purposes I've found thus far is The Essential Urban Farmer by Novella Carpenter, but even that is operating on a larger scale than what we are talking about in this thread (e.g. I don't have a vacant lot next to me that I can turn into a giant garden).
Last edited by white belt on Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Alphaville
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Alphaville »

see correction https://www.amazon.com/dp/1602399840/

eta maybe several of these books are blending in my head hahaha. i see no nubian goats there... 🤔

but yeah 1/4 acre is still 1/4 acre. i mean....you might like 1/4 acre eventually, to do crazy stuff in. it is plenty room if done right.

eta:

wikipedia sez:
Carpenter was granted a Minor Conditional Use Permit for her 4,500-square-foot urban residential plot, allowing her to keep more than 40 animals, including ducks, chickens, rabbits, pigs, and goats.
:lol: :lol:

looks interesting

7Wannabe5
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

It is interesting to note that it may already be more efficient to grow micro greens under lights powered by solar panels than to buy greens grown on industrial farm and trucked in to store.

Currently, there are approximately 2 acres of at least marginally arable land and approximately another 2 acres of desert or mountainous land for each human on the planet. There is no reason why this should coincidentally correspond with acreage necessary for self-sufficient production of all necessities such as tools and disposal/processing of waste towards decent lifestyle for every human.

The cost of living in cities is directly related to production of $$ per acre and this is directly related to number of functioning electrical sockets and internet nodes per acre. As Geoffrey West describes in “Scale”, this technology forms a sort of partial enfolded 4th dimension where it is most dense. So, given that electricity is expensive and first best use when limited would be production of Information through aids such as artificial lighting or radio, will high tech methods towards urban food production make sense in post-industrial era future? Will every human’s two acres of desert be covered with solar panels and solar powered solar panel production plants? What about the growing shortage of copper I just read about in Barron’s and experienced directly in the form of theft of the metal from my decrepit urban property?

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Alphaville
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:41 am
It is interesting to note that it may already be more efficient to grow micro greens under lights powered by solar panels than to buy greens grown on industrial farm and trucked in to store.
for now, from what ive seen, micro is suited to micro scale. market growers work in kitchen-sized rooms. i think economies of scale here might introduce pathogens? "death by sprouts." babies need babying, which for now is by hand.

but maybe robotics could provide intensive microgreen production in industrial warehouses. ofc you still need seed production... in actual fields. for now, anyway.
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:41 am
Currently, there are approximately 2 acres of at least marginally arable land and approximately another 2 acres of desert or mountainous land for each human on the planet. There is no reason why this should coincidentally correspond with acreage necessary for self-sufficient production of all necessities such as tools and disposal/processing of waste towards decent lifestyle for every human.

we could do it in less i think, but it takes social change to reduce demand. i don't mean just aggregate demand but demand per area however you measure. also, we have increasing economic demand for wilderness, so that will balance demand for other things. eg see: https://earther.gizmodo.com/outdoor-rec ... 1823043628

i am not so hot on "self-sufficient production" btw. im ok with some of it as wartime insurance, like victory gardens, but i actually prefer a society with rich trade networks. im a bit of a free marketeer in this sense. and no, trade doesn't have to mean waste or excess.

im not a free market fundamentalist but... trade just makes sense. we've had it since the dawn of time and it 's not going anywhere. isn't lentil baby a rudimentary trading network?
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:41 am
The cost of living in cities is directly related to production of $$ per acre and this is directly related to number of functioning electrical sockets and internet nodes per acre. As Geoffrey West describes in “Scale”, this technology forms a sort of partial enfolded 4th dimension where it is most dense. So, given that electricity is expensive and first best use when limited would be production of Information through aids such as artificial lighting or radio, will high tech methods towards urban food production make sense in post-industrial era future? Will every human’s two acres of desert be covered with solar panels and solar powered solar panel production plants? What about the growing shortage of copper I just read about in Barron’s and experienced directly in the form of theft of the metal from my decrepit urban property?
is it? i've no idea about any of that :D

but off the top of my head i could tell you that copper is more efficiently laid out in cities than over long tracts of sprawl. so in scarcity conditions cities would be able to pay for it sooner than thinly populated municipalities.

also if you think about it cities in the past have been home to many intensive industries. textile, automotive... looking at a map of detroit you can see the plants right there in the middle of everywhere. there's this packed suburb north of albuquerque where intel has a factory where they make microchips. looks fairly nondescript, i.e. no massive chimneys oozing... also, look at the brooklyn navy yard... https://brooklynnavyyard.org/ a lot of stuff is still made in brooklyn. eg https://gradolabs.com/ or https://www.brooklyngrangefarm.com/
innovation requires dense connections. eg see: shenzhen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrM7befNWNE

so i don't see why you couldn't bring raw local agricultural inputs to a city and produce your "beyond meats" right there in the neighborhood at the center of the distribution networks...

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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“Alphaville” wrote: im not a free market fundamentalist but... trade just makes sense. we've had it since the dawn of time and it 's not going anywhere. isn't lentil baby a rudimentary trading network?
I’m very much in favor of trade, just not at the price of 40 hours/week specialization and/or anybody being the boss of me (except maybe in bed, lentil baby is now filed under failed schemes due to fact that it somehow defaulted to worst case scenario of frequently being bossed around in the kitchen yet never in the bedroom. Unfortunately, I have had previous experience with this sort of situation which I used to refer to as anti-prostitution because you are receiving financial or other core support from a man who is not interested in having sex with you.)

Anyways, I don’t know about Beyond Meats, but I used to live by a tofu factory in a town in the middle of soybean fields and it was very stinky.

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Alphaville
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:18 am
I’m very much in favor of trade, just not at the price of 40 hours/week specialization and/or anybody being the boss of me (except maybe in bed, lentil baby is now filed under failed schemes due to fact that it somehow defaulted to worst case scenario of frequently being bossed around in the kitchen yet never in the bedroom. Unfortunately, I have had previous experience with this sort of situation which I used to refer to as anti-prostitution because you are receiving financial or other core support from a man who is not interested in having sex with you.)
:lol: antiprostitution: love it :lol:

anyway we have all sorts of people in the world, many enjoy the social aspect of work, and hierarchies, and specialization, and thanks to them we can have nice things that require teams.

and in the end, everyone specializes; the real question is "in what"

eg this morning i'm specializing on "internet slack." could it turn into a profession? :lol:
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:18 am
Anyways, I don’t know about Beyond Meats, but I used to live by a tofu factory in a town in the middle of soybean fields and it was very stinky.

idk either but a group of specialists will sort it out and i'll trade with them :P

---

eta:
Image

👆 internet slack sez this is beyond meat factory in columbia, mo

map shows me industrial burbs:
https://goo.gl/maps/T8Dy3pDkxecGWWUt9

(but such is the nature of columbia, mo, i don't think it's plant requirement)

ps st louis has *insane* geography that spot is *the* spot

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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“Alphaville” wrote: and in the end, everyone specializes; the real question is "in what"
This seems profoundly untrue to me. Everyone specializes in the moment is true enough but also trivial. However, I am likely an extreme generalist since even the more specific realms I tend to revisit are also generalist realms. So, MMV.

Back to the topic at hand, I think ideal practice would be spending approximately 2 hours/day somehow engaged in providing own self and possibly others with food, starting from whatever passes for sink and hearth in current domain. Do I consistently follow this practice myself? No. Why not? Because I am sometimes lazy and also because I often live with grouchy old men who don’t like it when I go on scavenger walks. When I lived with my bohemian musician sister I was better able to follow this practice even though we were in the city.

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Alphaville
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:56 pm
This seems profoundly untrue to me. Everyone specializes in the moment is true enough but also trivial. However, I am likely an extreme generalist since even the more specific realms I tend to revisit are also generalist realms. So, MMV.

yes. the moment. but we tend towards repetition. like nietzsche's eternal return, this moment comes back over and over and over-- ad infinitum (almost). so you, as a self-proclaimed extreme generalist... specialize in generalization :lol:

it's not just semantics though. we all repeat ourselves. that's the thing with people: we're less surprising than we think we are. everyone has one book in them, they just keep rewriting it.

e.g. see @ellarose's journal realizing she keeps circling back to the same questions, years later. no kidding? i'm older, have seen it: we all do that. it's just theme + variations with us humans. sometimes not even variations. you see it in artists, especially in long-lived ones; you also see it in regular people.

eventually the repetition becomes the specialty, because repetition becomes habits, habits become character, character becomes destiny, etc etc.

the theme behind the variations is the specialty, even if we sometimes can't identify it ourselves, it's there. and yes, often you even see types.

nobody can possibly do everything, so that's what we all end up doing: a lot of a little bit. this is how most epitaphs get to be short :lol:

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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I agree with your observation about Ella’s post. We do all do that and she certainly shouldn’t beat herself up about it. OTOH, there was a period of about 4 years where one of my main obsessions and activities was breastfeeding (a creative writing professor I had at the time mentioned how it kept coming up as a theme in my writing :lol:) and I really don’t think I’ll be circling back around to that one.

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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:31 pm
I agree with your observation about Ella’s post. We do all do that and she certainly shouldn’t beat herself up about it. OTOH, there was a period of about 4 years where one of my main obsessions and activities was breastfeeding (a creative writing professor I had at the time mentioned how it kept coming up as a theme in my writing :lol:) and I really don’t think I’ll be circling back around to that one.
no more lactation. now it's cookies. didn't you once argue that human milk is higher in sugar?

so here's my (respectful) attempt at your epitaph, allowing for metaphor:

horny gardener. endless explorer. giver of cookies.

here's one for me:

jouisseur. critic. pain in the ass.

:lol:

i never finished watching the 7up series. maybe i should.

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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by chenda »

When I was at university there was a local ice cream parlour who offered (human) breast milk flavoured ice cream. Really. We were going to try it but the council banned it, apparently the milk didn't come from a certified herd or something.

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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

It is the ultimate form of food production one could carry out in an apartment. However, it is nowhere near as sweet as ice cream.

white belt
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by white belt »

I’m in agreement with 7WB5 that one of my motivations for apartment homesteading is to move away from hyper-specialization at 40-50 hours a week on a single task that involves working for someone else. There are of course time and resource restraints when it comes to self-sufficiency, so it’s definitely something where the 80/20 rule applies.

I will caution that I also am wired in a way that I enjoy the challenge of learning things, so there is a lot I find rewarding in the ERE philosophy related to skill development. Someday I will hit the point of diminishing returns on homestead skill acquisition, but I’m so far away from that at the moment (as is the typical person).

If we take the 2 hours a day towards “food” activities as a benchmark, I think my days would average out to 30-60 min cooking, 30 min maintaining food systems, and 30 min wildcard time (research, foraging, improving system to reduce future labor, preserving, etc). That’s still very doable even working a 40 hour week.

A part of me wants to focus on solutions that are scalable, although it might just be wishful thinking that anyone would be interested in things in this thread outside of our weird corner of the internet.

As I’ve said before, my problem with most homestead resources is they assume 1) You move to the countryside on a large plot of land and 2) You quit your job to focus 40+ hours a week on operating the homestead (I expect this number is >60 hours for most homesteads). Both of these are a nonstarter for 95% of the population.

There’s always going to be the specialization arguments that are talked about in the ERE book like “Why would I grow my own food when I can make XX an hour and buy food at the store?” But I think what 7WB5 is hinting at is there is satisfaction and purpose likely at species level in having a connection to the food you eat.

Edit: Consider this, I can’t find one video of someone doing a permaculture rooftop garden in a densely populated city with row houses, such as those in virtually every major city on east coast that was laid out prior to the automobile (Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, DC, etc). And yet this is how a huge chunk of the population lives. Urbanization isn’t going away and moving back to the land isn’t a scalable solution. Yet nearly every YouTube video on homestead or even permaculture topics takes place out in the countryside or suburbia.

white belt
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by white belt »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:41 am
It is interesting to note that it may already be more efficient to grow micro greens under lights powered by solar panels than to buy greens grown on industrial farm and trucked in to store.
I believe places like Israel are already experimenting with widespread indoor hydroponics and aeroponics in large greenhouses. There is also a YouTube channel I watch that runs a commercial microgreen operation out of a cargo trailer parked in their backyard, so that might be very well true. Of course microgreens are ideally suited to local production due to their extremely short shelf life.

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Alphaville
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by Alphaville »

white belt wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:03 pm
to move away from hyper-specialization at 40-50 hours a week on a single task that involves working for someone else.
that's not really a rejection of specialization though, it's a rejection of specialization under someone elses's orders. which turn you into someone else.

you're pretty specialized already as it is, as a person. your themes are well established. you keep returning to the same subjects and personal goals and obsessions. you know who you are and what you want to do and be.

but the friction you're experiencing is "the man" ain't letting you become what you are.

in your case i'd be pretty annoyed too, and plotting my escape. as it is though, i'm happy with my current focus, because my escape already happened.

Image

i am not "free from work" or "financially independent." there is no santa claus for me. instead i am free to work exactly on what i want and become what i am.

fine conceptual distinctions are important when making critical judgments. yes yes, sometimes i use coarse metaphors and generalizations and imagery and such to get at a general point. im guilty of that.

but when you're performing surgery, you have to make sure to cut the infected tissue and not the good organ. precisions are important. again, i insist, ultimately we're all specialists. life's question is specialists in what. you choose, or it's chosen for you, but one way or another you end up with a specialty or three.

chenda
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Re: Apartment homesteading?

Post by chenda »

Alphaville wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:39 pm
i am not "free from work" or "financially independent." there is no santa claus for me. instead i am free to work exactly on what i want and become what i am.
This really resonates with me. Alphaville do you have an intro or journal ? I can't recall if you're working since you left the Dacha ? ;)

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