Is there a principle (and advice) about annoying volunteers
Is there a principle (and advice) about annoying volunteers
What I am challenged by is the fact that in volunteer work (which I do quite a lot after retirement) there is the tendency that among the people who volunteer for say a committee there are often one or two super annoying people. Frequently they are so annoying that most other people (i.e. the good, competent, hardworking people) sooner than later leave the committee. Then all of a sudden, the wrong people are in charge of it all, and usually they are not even able to carry out the work by themselves and thus the project suffers or dies.
I am positive that I am not the first one observing this phenomenon. Thus, maybe it is already described as a principle and has a name. Maybe it is somehow related to the Peter Principle? And most importantly, maybe someone can give me some advice on how to counter it.
I am positive that I am not the first one observing this phenomenon. Thus, maybe it is already described as a principle and has a name. Maybe it is somehow related to the Peter Principle? And most importantly, maybe someone can give me some advice on how to counter it.
Re: Is there a principle (and advice) about annoying volunteers
I'm only going off theory here since I've not ever been on a volunteer committee but I did witness this quite a bit when I did volunteer work. Leadership is tough in volunteer work because the leaders themselves have less power, so I think people tend to overcompensate from these facts and can therefore come off as annoying.
Let me give an example. In the military, the rank above you had a lot of power behind them to order you to do tasks (UCMJ). Your day job...obviously your superiors have a certain amount of power because at the end of the day the paycheck is the carrot. Some people have expert power - they're so good and knowledgeable about something that you have to listen.
List of powers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(so ... political)
Basically, what power does someone really have on a volunteer committee? If anything, they should be bending to you since they need worker bees. They don't pay you anything either. So as far as coming off as annoying, it may just stem from lack of leadership...practice. They may over-estimate their power (I can easily make you do what I want because we ALL CARE SO MUCH about said cause) or they under-estimate and are not effective at delegating tasks. Sounds like you're more dealing with the former?
Let me give an example. In the military, the rank above you had a lot of power behind them to order you to do tasks (UCMJ). Your day job...obviously your superiors have a certain amount of power because at the end of the day the paycheck is the carrot. Some people have expert power - they're so good and knowledgeable about something that you have to listen.
List of powers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(so ... political)
Basically, what power does someone really have on a volunteer committee? If anything, they should be bending to you since they need worker bees. They don't pay you anything either. So as far as coming off as annoying, it may just stem from lack of leadership...practice. They may over-estimate their power (I can easily make you do what I want because we ALL CARE SO MUCH about said cause) or they under-estimate and are not effective at delegating tasks. Sounds like you're more dealing with the former?
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Re: Is there a principle (and advice) about annoying volunteers
Volunteering (and committees) attracts ESFJs who happen to be INTJ kryptonite. The conflict would be in between prioritizing the means like organizing, agreeing, having meetings, remembering everybody's birthday vs those prioritizing the ends wanting results or moving forward. This is not just an ESFJ/INTJ conflict. There's spillover to other types.
You're not alone btw. This is why I bailed on the non-profit I cofounded back in the day when I retired. The problem---which I later realized, I was young then---is that you need those people. Just not in position where they are responsible for getting things done. And vice versa.
You're not alone btw. This is why I bailed on the non-profit I cofounded back in the day when I retired. The problem---which I later realized, I was young then---is that you need those people. Just not in position where they are responsible for getting things done. And vice versa.
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Re: Is there a principle (and advice) about annoying volunteers
Sounds like every HOA, ever. I agree with Jacob, above. And also lemur. But I would point out that lack of skill is a common feature, in that rarely is leadership skills selected for in that environment.
Hell is being stuck on a team "led" by one whose main qualification is ego. Yet that is often what happens in volunteer work. It's a default organizational state that needs to be prevented, I don't know of a cure once it is set in. Volunteer organizations rarely have the kinds of checks to prevent this.
Myself, if it were something I really cared about, I would start fresh, and create a competing structure. But that's a lot of work, and some folks (many folks) would call this a splinter faction, and the kinds of people who volunteer tend to also be the ones who value unity and community. So you better make it worth their while, to get any kind of support.
Actually being better is far harder than it seems. Simply being more results oriented is not enough. Not even close. But failure is a great ego check... And afterwards, watching others fail at leadership is much easier to tolerate.
Hell is being stuck on a team "led" by one whose main qualification is ego. Yet that is often what happens in volunteer work. It's a default organizational state that needs to be prevented, I don't know of a cure once it is set in. Volunteer organizations rarely have the kinds of checks to prevent this.
Myself, if it were something I really cared about, I would start fresh, and create a competing structure. But that's a lot of work, and some folks (many folks) would call this a splinter faction, and the kinds of people who volunteer tend to also be the ones who value unity and community. So you better make it worth their while, to get any kind of support.
Actually being better is far harder than it seems. Simply being more results oriented is not enough. Not even close. But failure is a great ego check... And afterwards, watching others fail at leadership is much easier to tolerate.
Re: Is there a principle (and advice) about annoying volunteers
Will you be more explicit about the things you specifically find annoying?
I tend to volunteer through religious institutions, and while there are plenty of people who are euphemistically referred to as "extra grace required" people, maybe the fact that we're all coming from a common ideology either weeds out certain sorts of problems or puts extra pressure on us to overlook people's faults. Or both.
I tend to volunteer through religious institutions, and while there are plenty of people who are euphemistically referred to as "extra grace required" people, maybe the fact that we're all coming from a common ideology either weeds out certain sorts of problems or puts extra pressure on us to overlook people's faults. Or both.
Re: Is there a principle (and advice) about annoying volunteers
interesting problem as I consider non profits as method to gain skills, but my BS meter is over after 9-5 work.
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Re: Is there a principle (and advice) about annoying volunteers
I've encountered those sorts of people everywhere. Some people are more drawn to being, others more to doing. Things like student gov't, various social organizations, the different advocacy groups that have proliferated in the megacorp world over the last 20 years, often appear to me to be forums for extroverts. One of the things I'm going to try to screen for in any volunteer activities I consider once I retire is whether they are about doing something measurable. If their charter is simply to oppose something, or "bring awareness"; it's not the right thing for me. Nothing against those activities, but I know myself well enough to know in what situations I'd be the odd man out. Another thing I'll look for is whether the activity is low or high profile. If a group brings a lot of attention to itself I'm likely to be uncomfortable with it.
But those are just generalizations and musing about my personality. GandK is right, without specifics it's hard to advise. In the most general sense you should learn to not let whatever is annoying you annoy you, or find other ways to do volunteer work that wouldn't be attractive to the personality type.
Another observation: I often find that people I find annoying find me equally annoying, and sometimes they are better suited to the task at hand than I am. So when we're forced together I do a lot of introspection to ensure that I'm not exacerbating things. Sometimes just respecting their inputs and finding ways to divide the pie can lead to reasonable coexistence.
But those are just generalizations and musing about my personality. GandK is right, without specifics it's hard to advise. In the most general sense you should learn to not let whatever is annoying you annoy you, or find other ways to do volunteer work that wouldn't be attractive to the personality type.
Another observation: I often find that people I find annoying find me equally annoying, and sometimes they are better suited to the task at hand than I am. So when we're forced together I do a lot of introspection to ensure that I'm not exacerbating things. Sometimes just respecting their inputs and finding ways to divide the pie can lead to reasonable coexistence.
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Re: Is there a principle (and advice) about annoying volunteers
I'm not sure how to counter this but I have seen it too. I used to do volunteer trail maintenance. The leader for this was a guy who was very nice but liked to hear himself talk. The work would be scheduled for a certain time but it might not start for 40 minutes because he liked to make small talk with and then monologue at the volunteers.
I see it a lot at work too. The people who rise to middle management are there in part because they like to talk and hold meetings. They don't really seem to care about results so there are a lot of meetings that are a mix of small talk and manager monologue. Little gets done so another meeting is called and the whole thing repeats.
I see it a lot at work too. The people who rise to middle management are there in part because they like to talk and hold meetings. They don't really seem to care about results so there are a lot of meetings that are a mix of small talk and manager monologue. Little gets done so another meeting is called and the whole thing repeats.
Re: Is there a principle (and advice) about annoying volunteers
My guess is ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTJ, ESFJ in about that order. In certain situations, the ESFJ can shine as long as a Te user is nearby to cut inefficiencies. The larger the organization, the more Ni required relative to Si. STJ's are ideal for managing small to medium organizations, though.
Re: Is there a principle (and advice) about annoying volunteers
That ESFJ leader, who has people who could help but is too insecure to have anyone but yes-men in the inner circle, is truly an awful boss. A conscientious ENTP is just similar enough in outgoingness to be viewed as a threat. One sees this type in schools quite a bit at an increasing rate post-LNCB. My advice is to recognize early and leave.
I am currently on a board where the situation described by the OP is occurring. Originally, we were all competent. Then a socially-retarded and clueless community member started to show up and eventually was appointed to the board. All but two of us have been replaced with clueless people. I would like to quit but am trying to hang in there until my term runs out.
I am currently on a board where the situation described by the OP is occurring. Originally, we were all competent. Then a socially-retarded and clueless community member started to show up and eventually was appointed to the board. All but two of us have been replaced with clueless people. I would like to quit but am trying to hang in there until my term runs out.
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Re: Is there a principle (and advice) about annoying volunteers
Committee members with equal responsibility are the worst situations. You need an active leader who can state the goal and maintain it for the committee, otherwise the committee devolves into administrivia because there is always an annoying personality in a volunteer committee.
So my experience was becoming more involved with an autocross club. Learned the ropes by the side of the current elected head and then he nominated me into his position. The elected head had the sole responsibility of making the club work, so apart from meeting national rules for safety and general event conduct, was free to implement any organization and vision they wanted. Now the elected head can't possibly do all the work necessary to hold an event, so you have to rely on other club members to handle the tasks.
Since the club members handling those tasks were all competent, my policy was to let them have free reign so long as it didn't interfere with my vision. People who have been doing their task more than a year usually know how to do it efficiently. Were there personality conflicts? Yes. I just made sure those people didn't need to cooperate with each other to do their task. I also made sure anybody with a task had a second person interested & trained to step in. Rarely is someone so annoying that they have no one who will work with them and if they are that annoying, they need to go.
So my experience was becoming more involved with an autocross club. Learned the ropes by the side of the current elected head and then he nominated me into his position. The elected head had the sole responsibility of making the club work, so apart from meeting national rules for safety and general event conduct, was free to implement any organization and vision they wanted. Now the elected head can't possibly do all the work necessary to hold an event, so you have to rely on other club members to handle the tasks.
Since the club members handling those tasks were all competent, my policy was to let them have free reign so long as it didn't interfere with my vision. People who have been doing their task more than a year usually know how to do it efficiently. Were there personality conflicts? Yes. I just made sure those people didn't need to cooperate with each other to do their task. I also made sure anybody with a task had a second person interested & trained to step in. Rarely is someone so annoying that they have no one who will work with them and if they are that annoying, they need to go.