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"swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:34 pm
by Stahlmann
pls be polite
pls don't delete before reading whole post

tbh, I came back to some (maybe pseudo)coaching I encountered 10-12 yrs ago
(somebody back then told me to become Renaissance ideal and quoted "Market wizards" :o)

I saw prices of psychiatric/psychologic help here, but I healed instantly after such event. :lol:

to some extent I believe that what's written here is truth
https://incels.wiki/w/Blackpill
in reality I haven't read this, because I don't wanna spoil my blood.
I rather drowned in nihilism (IN THE PAST) after staying too much on MGTOW/TRP (I haven't been there for like 1-2 yrs), so I know "the content".

in case anybody accusses me of staying late and wallowing in nihilism... it doesn't work this way.

it goes more like:
not caring about social life -> living life -> realizing that's not ok -> going out of my cave -> people not neccessarliy interested in me -> having X factor which triggers bad response -> going back to point 1 -> getting bitter in the basement -> ... -> rinse and repeat

it's more about realizing which parameters are above average and maxing them.
or I'm maybe day-dreamer/process reality differently according MBTI

I don't want this topic coming down to discussing current relationship landscape (duh...) again.
Somehow it's connected, because HR ladies rate my resume (I'm gonna not attach photo next time) before it goes to technical manager.
I need also somehow pass psychological tests and be seen as normal/"teamplayer".

current my biggest black pill is "aristocratic" one.
There're some people on this planet who earn 500k USD per day and are looking for fools who gonna destroy their health for measly 100k USD per year working in Middle East. (inb4 capital accumulation and hard work of being born in some dynasty :-DDDDD)

I simply wanna share interesting stuff/discuss some problems.

this is transcribed from audio (live seminar) by some AI/ quotes from pdfs
Consistent effort creates ‘luck’... as in ‘let's go get lucky’ by choice.
When I bitch and complain about things I don't have to feel responsible for them.
I can tell myself about how bad other people are I can complain about it to myself just kind of stew in my own pity and that gives me a mild feeling of superiority over others.
And while I mean that I'm better than you thought process I don't have to pay attention to what else is going on.
And I get to feel a little bit superior.
Get rid of that stuff
Our minds tend to link things together and find meaning even where there Is
none. This process is happening all the time, and leaves no clues. It brings us
incredible benefits, but because of its nature, often leads to ‘impoverished
models’ of reality.
• When your good-intentioned mind creates a meaning or link between things that it
isn't useful to have linked, you must ‘manually’ go in and UN-link them.
• One way to do this is called 'Refraining’.
• When you Reframe, you challenge beliefs, break associations, and create new
meanings... and therefore new possibilities.

PS. yes, I know this is prolly phony NLP. I also have access to rational wiki, I can type in google "x scientfic consensus", but
"if somethig is stupid and works, keep doing it.
In case something is stupid and doesn't work, stop doing it".

PS2. I can type in paragraphs, but this is not a test.

PS3. I tried discussing some current banter/pre-bullying against me in my workplace with one my friends IRL. He is tall, good face. high(er) IQ, realized many ideas I daydreamt, is more popular, prolly ENTFJ/ENTP.

I proposed MBTI, Gervais principle, semi-black pill as frameworks to consider why I fail and asked what I can do about it (from outside perspective, because I tend to fall into grandiosity/persecution complex).

...

He doesn't know MBTI, only watched "The office" (didn't get into Gervais principle), haven't heard about black pill. Proposed to study "cognitive abilities", because he listened to Jordan Peterson recently.

Hmmm. -.-

___

Anyway, your take?

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:28 am
by C40
Ok man….

1 - Remember when we were talking 2-3 years ago, and I gave you a suggestion? Remember what that was? Did you do it? Did you try? How had it been going?

(The suggestion was to make some platonic female friends - to make friend with women who you are interested in for reasons other than physical attractiveness/sex/etc.)


2 - I think that overall, you are a victim of numerous problems with modern society. Likely both physiologically (possibly autism, aspergers, ??), and certainly in various mental ways. A recent book by Chris Ryan (Civilized to Death) covers the problems with modern society fairly well and outlines the impact they have on people, particularly young men like you. The reasons, or ‘blame’ for being a weirdo like you are are not entirely outside of yourself, and not entirely on you alone. It is definitely both.

2a - Now… given these problems… you are reacting in an unhealthy way. Harry Browne describes this “trap” you’re in - in his book “How I found Freedom in an unfree world” quite well. You don’t need to read it though. Your problem is that you’re thinking the entire world needs to change in order for you to [be ok] / [be financially successful] / [have love or sex] etc.. Well, wish all you want, complain all you want, but it ain’t gonna happen any time soon.

Exibit A - you being aware of all that INCEL, black pill, red pill crap. A quick look at that black pill wiki page is all the evidence needed.
“Blackpill wiki page” wrote: The blackpill claims that society is too shallow and hypergamous, and that without enforcing monogamy and reinstating traditional gender roles, there is no hope for men that women deem unattractive.
(This is wrong right off the bat because monogamy is not even a natural human practice. It is a component of the ‘property’ mindset that came along with agriculture.)

I’ve seen your face and while you’re no Brad Pitt, you are NOT physically unattractive. You’re weird in conversation and yeah that is unattractive.


(Note though - if you really do want a more “traditional” and actually monogamous society - many places are still like that. In Thailand - even in the very locally modern city of Bangkok, many of the women I met who are in their 30s had only had 0-3 boyfriends and only had sex with 0-3 people. A huge contrast to places like the U.S., Europe, etc. But, TBH, if you just go to a place like that, you’re still going to be disappointed, because:)

2b - Yes, As I outlined above, many of the causes of your current angst are external to you and are huge problems with humanity.. It’s thus easy to on how other people need to change. But this it is just self-coddling to think that the reason you’re not fulfilled is problems with other people, especially to think something a stupid as ~”I’m not getting laid or love because women are too ~slutty”.

SO - you want love and sex and money in this life - and the way to get them is to improve yourself. Stop reading about problems with the world and problems with women and problems with capitalism and rich people. (other than maybe the Civilized to Death book I mentioned - but make sure you are focusing on what YOU should do). Also, you don’t need things with so much detail as MBTI.

Because your main problem is that you’re a weirdo socially, you should be learning about and PRACTICING:
- Empathy
- How to have an interesting conversation
- How to build connection with another person
- How to recognize and show love (or in smaller versions, gratitude, appreciation, admiration, excitement, vulnerability, desires, etc.)


You could just google something like “autism develop empathy” or other things along the lines of “learning social skills for weirdos” but in words that will get search results.

I’m not sure what you should read, I’d recommend you find simple books focused on:

1 - General principle of empathy, compassion, developing a connection with people
2 - Basic info on mechanics of things like conversation, dating, etc.
3 - then —- some books about love and relationships. Some simple examples are “5 love languages”… “men are from mars, women are from venus” (maybe just the first 30 pages).. “models: attract women through honesty”. These books aren’t complete or great, but you’ll learn from them.


These should be short books and very easy reads. Like 50-200 pages.


Some examples of books that are good but that you should wait to read util you find and read some of the above:
- One example of a book that does a good job of explaining male and female (particularly masculine and feminine) roles in relationships is called “Way of the Superior Man”. The reason it is good is because it explains things you and I would perceive as problems with women (like “they lie… they change their mind on a whim.. they get ‘crazy’) from a truthful perspective without judging women - and explains how these things don’t actually need to be problems, and how you should deal with them - and how you should actually admire these things rather than be frustrated by them.

- After you’ve made some progress and are developing friendships and having conversations, read the “Non-Violent Communication” book.







BUT! — don’t just hole yourself up reading and reading. Go outside! Talk to people. Meet new people. Talk to them again when you see them next. Make friends. Practice flirting with women without any expectation of results AND without being creepy. You can always practice this by having conversations with your family - siblings, aunts/uncles, cousins, etc. Have real conversations about their life and ask them about how they’re feeling, what they’re thinking about doing - personal conversations - NOT conversations about other people or problems with the world.



You mentioned in your post:
Stahlmann wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:34 pm
going out of my cave -> people not necessarily interested in me
Maybe your focus is backwards. If you want to make friends, you don’t need to be interestING. You mainly need to be interesTED. (Not a creepy “I want you to touch my weiner” interested… but a “I want to get to know you…. to learn from you…. I’m curious about [xyz])

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:26 am
by nikolaj
your post covers many things so i don't know if this reply is going to be a bit jumpled.

As for socialising in general i have found that what people seek is conformity and the comfort of the well known. Talking about concepts and ideas out of the ordinary will only lead to scaring most people and them reacting by being offended. I have met exceptions to this but i estimate that they comprise 1% of society.

being socially succesful therefore means 3 different strategies:
1. finding people that are different in the same way as yourself.
2. conforming and acting identically to everyone else.
3. finding people who have hobbies/interests that align with your own, and only talking about that shit.

number 1 will yield the most satisfying connections, but achieving it is rare.
number 2 would in my opinion be unsatisfying and is not worth it.
number 3 is easy to implement and gives fast results, but is not as rewarding as 1.

As far as dating goes, i think being an outlier will generally be seen as negative. Humans look for the most socially conforming personality, even though this personality always leads to lack of success.
The corporate work environment is the same. There is no incentive to produce value, and maximum incentive to conform. This is why i don't do anything when i'm at work, i just show up.


Lastly you see this aristocratic black pill as a bad thing, but in my opinion it is good. It merely means that you need to have an exponentially growing net worth, in order to become exceptionally powerful. Yes this system is working against you when you are poor, but if you just become wealthy it will benefit you. It's simple enough to just become wealthy.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:12 am
by Jean
Join a choir or a sailing club, or anything you like.
People are nice, and once they know you, they'll propably like you.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:23 am
by Solvent
It still amazes me that there are places (apparently many) where attaching photos to resumes is standard practice. That's just asking for biases/discrimination to manifest in the hiring process.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:52 am
by ertyu
Well - and this comes from a fat middle-aged balding shmuck - people are biased, and they do discriminate on appearance. Fact of life. OP discriminates on appearance, too. OP, you only have to introspect a bit and you will find that to be true. You can spend your time whining how they shouldn't and how wronged you are, or you can face reality, clean up your diet, hit the gym, and learn how to groom and dress yourself. If you choose not to, that's a legitimate choice. You're allowed to choose not to. Choosing to be a fat and ugly loser because the opposite is too hard, or because you simply have different priorities right now, is legit. But take responsibility for your choice and accept the consequences. Your choice not to work on yourself is at the same time a choice that you will be treated like a person who has chosen not to work on himself. Yes, the consequences of your choice might be difficult to live on a day to day basis. Saying, "fuck, it's my choice, I know I chose it, but fuck if it's not a pain to get through" is also legit.

It is still your choice.

It comes down to this: yes, working on yourself might be a hell of a lot of work. Yes, you may have more work to do than other people. Some of that might be bad luck - e.g. you might have been born with autism or with a visible or invisible disability. You may have a chronic illness that makes things much harder for you than they are for others. Does it suck you might have more work to do? You bet. But if you choose not to do it, you don't get to whine.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:40 am
by 7Wannabe5
You are getting a lot of good advice here.

One thing I might note would be that I know quite a few tall, good-looking, intelligent, successful, mature(ish) men who are not happy with their relationships or lack of relationships. Lining humans up to form monogamous pairs like kids in 7th grade dance class is a very simplistic solution* for a much more complex problem. For instance, my soon-to-be-ex SO who checks most of the above boxes would really prefer to attract extremely good looking women with above average IQ, but his experience has been that he only attracts somewhat above average looking women with extremely high IQ. I told him that this is because only women with extremely high IQ have enough insight to tolerate the sort of behavior exhibited by men like Sheldon on the "Big Bang Theory" and/or grumpy old men like him.

Since I have also dated men who are more like the Charlie Sheen character on "Two and a Half Men", I have tried to explain why women are more attracted to him than his seemingly more well-meaning brother. The reason is that attractive players offer clear limited contract AND they focus on providing women with what works for them sexually without judgment. That said, since it's difficult to gain expertise in all realms, by the time lifelong players hit their early 50s they will often find themselves lacking the competence in long-term relationship/domestic skills of some of their more moderate/generalist relationship-behavior peers. I have fairly seriously dated 3 "players" in their 50s who were finally looking to get married and IMO they definitely waited too long.




*I was an early bloomer, so very tall in the 7th grade, so I breathed a sigh of relief when I was somehow magically paired with the second tallest boy, who was also reasonably attractive, even though he was on the other end of the spectrum intellectually. I had to wait 5 more years before majority of boys of all IQs reached full stature! My DD28 who is even taller than me just married a man who is several inches shorter than her and already balding. They are both extremely nerdy and artsy and quite happy together. The best advice I can offer to a man who is not conventionally attractive and has little hope of becoming so through training/aesthetic procedures, would be to focus on gaining skills in the arts. I mean, some women are just naturally, effortlessly attractive, but most of the woman I have known who are very attractive in their physical presentation are also otherwise aesthetically sensitive. So, learning how to dance, play a musical instrument, painting, photography, or even simply developing your taste in these realms will definitely work in your favor. It's a huge mistake to be the nerdy guy who bashes women for their interest in realms like fashion.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:01 am
by Sclass
+1 to C40’s suggestions.

When I first heard about this blackpill INCEL MGTOW thing a year ago I was shocked. This is not a problem you solve by running away from the fire. You need to learn how to harness the fire. I know guys like you who are sexually frustrated, financially misguided and armed. It is disturbing when I think of the possibilities.

Here is something that helped me in conversing smoothly. This is kind of embarrassing but it was kind of a nerdy engineer’s solution to a nerd’s problem.

At the tender age of 16 I thought I’d found the love of my life. Though we were the same age she’d been attending universities around the world and living away from home since 13 and was a world beyond me in maturity. I was a little boy wooing a woman for the most part. It was frustrating.

One day I started recording our conversations. When I played them back to myself I was shocked. Whoa. I sound like that? Why did I say that? Why did I pause so long? Why do I just blurt out stuff? Why am I stuttering? Why is the frequency of my voice wandering? Why is the cadence of my speaking wandering? Why didn’t I notice I was interrupting her? This must be torture or entertainment for her..., Why does she still even speak to me?

I tortured myself for hours playing back the audio. I even mixed it to some of my favorite music and played it around while I drove in my car. I was so mad at myself for coming off as an awkward person. It was kind of this self realization “oh sh.t this is me?”

Why don’t I sound like Charlie Rose? Or Robert Redford discussing a Sundance film? I started listening to them and trying to sound more like them. When to pause. When to smile. When to speed up. When to listen and how to gaze while listening.

I listened. I analyzed. I changed. I recorded myself more over the following year and realized I ironed out the wrinkles. I literally transformed the way I presented myself verbally over the phone. My college roommate used to tease me that I had a Crown Royal sack I’d slip over my tongue before calling up a date. Meaning I went velvety smooth. It took a ton of practice and self reflection. But luckily not a lot of time. REC FF REW PLAY repeat.

A few years later I found myself on a mountain skiing with some European friends. They were awesome skiers. I’d compliment them and they’d say they were average I the alps. I was many levels below them and lacked their grace though I managed to keep up. One friend lugged a video camcorder (they were huge in 1993) up the mountain and filmed me. When we got back and watched the footage it was like listening to the tapes of my 16 year old self stutter, stumble and twitch while trying to converse with the woman of my dreams. “I ski like that?” Yes. “But I want to ski like this.”

Same process, I got a clip of my run and watched it over and over. Turn by turn, bump by bump. It was torture. I looked like a circus clown on roller skates. Then I watched some videos of great skiing. Same deal, what are they doing that I’m not doing? Hours of analysis.

The next winter I went up with the same people. I tried all the stuff I saw in the videos. I had actually been trying it on a mountain road all summer with rollerblades beforehand so I had it all worked out by the time we hit the snow. One guy said, “has anyone noticed how much Sclass has improved? I cannot even recognize the guy up here. What did you do? Did you take some lessons?” A video confirmed the dramatic improvement in form. I modestly lied that I bought new skis.

So now I was dangerous. What seemed like a tortuous method of learning was actually a big shortcut. By recording and providing immediate feedback you can transform your presentation instantly rather than spending years in the field stumbling, getting external feedback and training (when people feel obliged to tell you), then correcting.

The last stage came when my lab tech in grad school gave me a copy of the movie Smoke. He said it started with a bunch of great actors just talking to the camera. They presented themselves so well. It is really a wonderful piece of dramatic art. Sooooo...I borrowed a friend’s camcorder and tried to tell the Christmas Story like Harvey Keitel in smoke. It was awful! I looked like a high school drama student on crack! Replay. Record. Correct. Analyze. Improve.

I cannot say I’m as smooth as Harvey but I can easily hold somebody’s interest while I speak. It’s all in the presentation.

I went from an awkward stuttering nerd to a smooth talking stage confident nerd. I remember my sales VP paying me the ultimate compliment “you’re a pretty smooth talker...for one of our eggheads.”

A few times over the years people have even asked me if I’d ever looked into a career in radio broadcast after hearing me. My wife insists I am a natural speaker/conman/conversationalist but she didn’t know me when I was 16.

Autistics and aspies, there is hope. You can transform yourselves with a little instant feedback. You have enough tech in your pocket to make a self shaming movie feature.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:30 am
by subgard
Try just being altruistic for a while.
Practice the skill of having the conversation that the other person wants to have.

Don't try to show people you are anything - smart, funny, interesting, attractive, confident, sexy, whatever.
Don't worry about appearing any of those things.

Instead, focus on making other people comfortable, talking about the things they want to talk about, and not trying to extract the conversation/interaction you want out of them.
Google empathic listening, active listening, comedy improv conversation for details.

If you practice this, you'll find that people will want to be around you, maybe even ladies that find you attractive.
But, don't have that goal in mind. Have the goal be making the other people comfortable in real time, with no expectation of anything in return.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:14 am
by sky
I understand the following after reading your post:

You are having difficulty in finding a high paying job.
You find it difficult to make friends.
You find it difficult to find a partner.
You have read some sociological analysis which might explain the reasons why.

I recommend abandoning the sociological ideology and focus on pure pragmatic steps to achieve your goals. In other words, find out what steps a person should take to get a good job and do those things. Develop interests that can be enjoyed in a social setting, such as dance or playing cards, or whatever people in your area do.

With regards to finding a partner, there are many ways, but probably the most effective is to be aware of who is looking at you and focusing their attention on you. This is a nonverbal preliminary expression of interest in you. If you like what you see (and you should be selective), then play the game by taking a number of steps to see where the interaction goes. You will need to develop your own set of responses so it is natural to you, but generally the steps are:
Make eye contact and smile. After a few minutes walk to her and make a mild compliment on something you genuinely like about her. Make small talk about some noncontroversial thing that both of you might be interested in. Mixed in with the small talk, make a clear question about whether she is single to let her know that you are interested in her as a partner. If she continues to talk to you, then you have successfuly broken the ice and can continue on in conversation to find out if you want to spend time with her, and eventually get contact information. In order to find a good partner, you may have to practice these steps hundreds of times, in part to learn to make small talk, but also because you will meet many people who are worth talking to, but are not a good match for you.

This is what I mean by being pragmatic: identify specific strategies and actions that have a good chance of bringing successful results, and take those actions.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:49 am
by TopHatFox
Didn’t really read your post, but here’s what works:

1. Be fit/well groomed
2. Have income/good logistics
3. Have hobbies/interesting topics to talk about
4. Escalate: introduction -> dates -> your place -> relationship or fwb or ghost
5. Repeat

Depending on your rating in 1-3 and your skill in 4—and your geocultural region— it’ll take more approaches or less. Although, these days, getting 1 in 4 to show up is par for the course. Delete numbers of dead leads to avoid dwelling on them.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:31 pm
by Scott 2
Sclass - your post is worthy of its own thread. Learning to learn is one of the most important things any of us can do.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:13 pm
by Stahlmann
[my reply is a bit emotional, because I (try to) discuss many issues I touched there, like 1yr ago or even 2yrs ago]

[this post isn't reply to Sclass" or C40"s posts, I'll do it later]

____

if we speak for success stories from my last week: I went to 2 networking events.

On first one I won book by discussing my mission and "something something" with the guest coaches (prollly no medical or psychological background :-DDD).

in reality I was heckler - I can do it IRL, not only in the internet :-DDD
ladies presented pyramid of success.

I provided info that I saw this 11 yrs ago in Brian Tracy materials,
and asked how little fool can have "mission" and "this one step below" in his life?

and:
- do you know personally somebody who stayed with this for at last 10 yrs?
- how did you introduce this to your life? :----DDDDDD

I did this during lecture time. Bit tired of lack interaction between "student and master" after my 5yrs in uni.

on "scene" (chair actually), I provided story of Mexican fisherman. I think I failed to deliver it. One lady helped me and... presented different version of this methapor. She is realtor, works for somebody who owns over 100 properties and writes books on this.

I wanted to say "simple math behind early retirement" and see blinking in eyes of audience (mostly women a bit older than me) and network after this event with somebody who "knows this". Didn't happen (didn't have time to talk about it).

got called off the scene with the book, because I was taking too much time. btw, I gave book to the coaches, because I wanted to say thank you to them (on somebody's cost :-DDD)

btw2, I said that I wanna to work 3 days for 8hrs per week in my 40's.
I also I said I'm motivated by fear of being "played out" or ageism in workforce (yes, I pointed out that I'm aware that positive motivation would be better, but I haven't found one). now, I think I could add environmental crisis, but people would consider me a total whacko :-DDD

maybe as on MGTOW was said - men were taking overhours and I was "developing" myself with other women :-DDD

I handshaked with the author of this "self development club" before Christmas (CEO of 600 person organisation).

he was heckler during the 2nd meeting, he asked "where are LGBT minorities hehhehe?" after other woman had heckled about "where are the women in this discussion panel?!"
I thinking about pulling trick as lefties do in USA just for fun :-DDD

EDIT: BTI provides a bit idealistic pyramid ("everything is dependent on you"). Dilts pyramid is more realistic one.
____________
Namely: the terapy model is essentially a consumerist one. Instead of helping each other and talking through our problems in our friendships and social networks, we pay someone to listen to us and ask us questions. Before therapists, people did this for each other. (Religion used to play a role, too, but I am not a religious person, so while I know many find help from clegry and congregation, it's not a place where I'd go - but it's an option.
I heard coaching/"mastermind" groups are "religion for the masses in 21th century" (after churches lost their influences on people due to... capitalism became the biggest cult... [this trick with deleting letters jacob uses] eckhm laicisation of society)

I found one where they wake up at 5:55 daily and listen to the "mentor" (who retired early at XX, was influenced by Bodo Schäfer [I smell fake success stories - as in turn - this guy was "raised" by Thony Robbins]

but I'm on level where I don't wake time for FB before work
also... such groups tend to be focused around MLM (which works for 10% of it's believers; in contrast I think capitalism work for 70% people [at least in my country], yes I'm in happier part of society, but the key is to stay hungry)

I try to find my "cult", but after finding ERE it's difficult to find smarter people.
the trick is to find 20% better people than me (in terms of income, social status) and overplay them.
then find new group...

seeing people who spend my yearly salary on kitchen table is a bit bad too my mental health.

in reality it's more about finding somebody who accepts extreme LBYM+somehow interested in me personally.
DIYing a cult is on my bucket list anyway :D

also take advantage of "rationalists" ("no god", "don't care about after life"-people) meet ups if it's thing in ur country (in mine not).

I gave a thought about creating "church persona" (due to the fact I'd have access to a lot of people) but I'm not enough "sociopathic" or enter too easily in mode "This works a bit little different. Lemme explain..".

anyway 1 socialist cookie for u from my kitchen for being better in expressing ur thoughts than I'm willing to.

____

ok, next rambling writing will come in next week.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:36 pm
by steveo73
I just read through most of this thread. There are some really great comments from heaps of posters above.

I'll make a couple of points:-

1. Life is tough.
2. Success comes from hard work and consistency.
3. Women aren't one generic group and you have to appeal to all of them. They are individual human beings.
4. People often develop stories they tell themselves and they can't see the holes in their reasoning. I view basically all positive psychology (Anthony Robbins/Brian Tracy) etc in this light. I also view the idea of hypergamy/TRP stuff in this same category. It's different but it's still based on belief systems that don't hold up to reality.
5. You have a massive input into your happiness whatever that means to you.
6. I sort of agree with the blackpill line. We are all given certain talents. You can't go from being short (I'm short) to being tall or average looking to good looking. At the same time you can improve your life via working on yourself. That includes your mind-set/outlook on life as well as your health and finances etc.

As a side point I was always hopeless with women. I'm short and introverted and a bit different. I had to change to make myself more comfortable with dating but I did it on my own terms. I didn't like going out to pubs/night clubs and trying to pick up women. I preferred to stay at home, smoke a bit of pot and read books. I'm married with 3 kids and my wife is very attractive. My wife is also a bit weird (she married me). She doesn't really like going out and partying or dressing up etc.

You don't have to buy into the now conventional way of thinking that you have to game women, have a big willy, earn a lot of money, dress well etc to get women. Women aren't special creatures that only open up their special place for supermen. My take is that in relationships we are both on an equal footing. They get to choose but so do we. If you think relationships (which entail having sex) rather than sex (which can come across as desperate) and maintain your self-respect I think you have a much better chance of having a healthy relationship with someone of the opposite sex. If they are a bad woman dump them. If you choose to have a partner I think you should have some standards.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:32 pm
by C40
Dude...

it sounds like you were really being a dick at that seminar or class or whatever. You're probably lucky that all they did was tell you to shut up and that they didn't kick you out entirely.

I'll re-write something I mentioned above - if you want to make friends - focus on being INTERESTED, not INTERESTING... (I mean interested in THEM, not just information they share)

It seems you are viewing all the people you mentioned in your last post only as some way for you to gain personally in ways that don't relate to them. You just want to take from them. Use them as stepping stones. You are acting like a vulture. You think these people want to be friends with a vulture?

If you want to learn from people, if you want to spend time with them regularly, if you want to have sex with another person:
- Learn/recognize/realize (show that you understand) that these are real individual people with their own consciousness, thoughts, fears, life lessons, and so on. Learn that there is joy in interacting with them - in sharing moments, in learning about them, in developing actual rapport, trust, camaraderie.
- Ask genuine questions out of curiosity. Discuss ideas in ways that are beneficial both as learning things to do, but also in ways that are good conversation in the moment. Stop trying to prove that you are smart. You're just annoying them.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:50 pm
by steveo73
C40 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:32 pm
It seems you are viewing all the people you mentioned in your last post only as some way for you to gain personally in ways that don't relate to them. You just want to take from them. Use them as stepping stones. You are acting like a vulture. You think these people want to be friends with a vulture?
This is a really good point.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:43 am
by daylen
I think much of the advice being given is not of much use to Stahlmann, because it is what Schumacher would call the second and third field of knowledge in "A Guide for the Perplexed". This is knowledge pertaining to how others think and how you appear to others, but this is somewhat useless and even confusing unless you already have a grasp of the first field. The first field is self knowledge and most never achieve this.

Self knowledge comes a bit more naturally for INTJ types and for Ni types in general, because such types are already regularly using the part of the brain where the 'self' is and they maintain integration more easily. For Ti types, accurate self-knowledge can be particularly challenging to obtain, because this function utilizes a different part of the brain and is often exclusive to the part of the brain dealing with self identity and memory of past events. Same for Fi types to a lesser extent because they can over-analyze and may delude themselves. Stahlmann seems to use a bit of both Fi and Ti, which is quite interesting.

I think the best course of action at this point is for Stahlmann to develop the first field by working on Si. Si is the more particularized cousin of Ni that relates bodily sensation and control with past experiences. Developing this function will help Stahlmann construct a new frame with new objectives and opinions that can be reintegrated with his default Fi/Ti processing, giving him more reliable access to self knowledge. At which point, he can start to focus more on how others think and view him more successfully. Allowing him to connect with people on a deeper level. First he must connect with himself more.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:20 pm
by daylen
I wonder if this Fi/Ti split is common for others struggling with bipolar? It seems that mixing up these forms of processing can lead to episodes of self delusion where energy is expended at an uncontrolled rate, leading to a crash. As if using Ti tools for Fi can induce a positive feedback process resulting in instability.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:11 pm
by jacob
daylen wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:43 am
I think much of the advice being given is not of much use to Stahlmann, because it is what Schumacher would call the second and third field of knowledge in "A Guide for the Perplexed". This is knowledge pertaining to how others think and how you appear to others, but this is somewhat useless and even confusing unless you already have a grasp of the first field. The first field is self knowledge and most never achieve this.
Bingo! I once wrote a long "relationship"-post that I still fail to find (I've had this problem before :-P ), but roughly speaking, the process---which has no short cuts---goes like this. Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Guide_f ... _knowledge for the generalized Schumacher version if it makes more sense than my "relationship"-version.

Stage 1) The me-stage where one is the subject and others are the object. Characterized by theories about how things should be and perhaps how annoying it is that they aren't. There's some desire to change or wish that the world was different. In C40's words, this is about how other people are interesting or perhaps not interesting. One focuses on which other persons one likes and which one's one doesn't like. This stage is pretty much radioactive but in a way that goes unseen to oneself. One might "calculate" all the ways in which one should be a prize catch or at least have better odds than experience suggests ... and begin to blame the world, conspiracies, or bad luck when expectations don't match reality.

Stage 2) The you-stage in which one becomes the object. One begins to consider the other's perspective on oneself. In practical terms, one flips the table and tries to become the person that others (or a specific other) likes. In practical terms, this might be dressing according to fashion/acceptable norms instead of wearing combat boots. Or becoming interested in dancing instead of Warhammer40k figures or theories about collapse. Basically, one gets an outside perspective on oneself and also a better perspective on other people. Also the crazy thing happens. Because one is now interested in oneself (via others) one also becomes interested in others. The feeling of "interested" becomes mutual. We now have two individuals.

Stage 3) The us-stage. Rather than trying to get others to meet your standard or trying to meet the standard of others, the feeling over mutual "interested" exceeds the individuals. They now become a couple rather than two individuals. (People can of course have sex w/o getting to this point, but it's not a relationship until we get here.) You're no longer "interested" in the other and vice versa. You're both more interested in what you are together.

I don't think one can jump level.

I also think each level is like quicksand in that it's hard to get out of because there's no obvious way to step out of it. Suggesting Stage 1 to take dancing lesson can easily fall flat because of course it's not about the lessons or the club membership. In clothing terms, buying a new wardrobe will not change you as a person even if changes how people react to you; the change is in becoming the person who wants to change their wardrobe. You have to be/feel comfortable in your "new suit".

I think there's also great potential to be misinformed, especially in these dark internet days. I think the various "pills" are epic misinformation steps. Sure they might get the 5% most confident/hottest adapters a lot of one-night stands in bars, but it will never go beyond that.

Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:49 pm
by chenda
@Jacob - That's an interesting way of looking at it, did you borrow it from non-dualism ?