"swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

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fiby41
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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by fiby41 »

It's my opinion that the OPs immediate surrounding has more bearing on his sex life than his diagnostic type.
I've atleast an order of magnitude higher chance of getting laid in a remote Russian village than the most westernized Indian city.

I was reading The Rational Male trilogy in last week of June last year and would like to echo 3 quotes:

7w5's 1st paragraph above, viewtopic.php?p=219550#p219550 "you cannot negotiate genuine desire"

Nomad's second last paragraph, viewtopic.php?p=219543#p219543

"will cry a river of wanting Mr Dependable and then go off with Mr exciting"

When thinking about the idea of marrying for money
viewtopic.php?p=219227#p219227
"Power is not financial or influential but the degree to which we have control over our own lives"

If there was a massive shortage of girls, India'd have had more prostitutes than California. I find the admixture of skin colour with notions of race amusing. It is an exclusive US phenomenon in the sense that in Eastern Europe, with no social security as defined in a US context, this is not considered as important. Is she really a high quality woman in the first place if she doesn't even bring up the topic of commitment?

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C40
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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by C40 »

shemp wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:39 pm
I just wanted occasional sex with high quality women (white because that's my race) without commitment. I didn't actually have problems getting indications of interest from quality women, even in the notoriously difficult San Francisco area, but I have enough human decency not to do a pump-and-dump with girls who are looking for something long-term. I was a natural for prostitution (aka mongering) from the start and am currently a sugar daddy
I'm not sure if your mention of race is related to the "high quality" part of your statement, or your own preference/discrimination, but I tell you what man, if you're only sleeping with white women because you think only they are high quality sexually: you are wrong, and you're missing out.

ertyu
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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by ertyu »

C40 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:35 am
if you're only sleeping with white women because you think only they are high quality sexually: you are wrong, and you're missing out.
once again coming back to, "quality is in the eye of the beholder."

shemp
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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by shemp »

No, that term "quality" is a bad choice. Street walkers, hood rats of whatever race, drug users, etc are all what I would call low quality examples of girls who trade sex for money. Self-disciplined university graduates (my current girl has a degree in engineering) with good manners, honest, excellent social skills, etc would be high quality examples. Quality, as I'm using that term, is more about internal factors than superficial beauty, though that's also something I want.

High quality girls are in demand everywhere as wives, and so don't have to resort to selling sex. They have options, which means they can be selective about clients. For example, my girl only takes rich older foreign businessman as clients and then only if she likes the man, or so she told me. She also runs some part-time online businesses selling stuff she imports from China, plus works part-time as sales representative for some Chinese companies trying to market in Ukraine, plus she's now studying JavaScript with plans to do gig work eventually, so selling sex is just one of her sources of income. She is somewhat secretive about her personal life, but I get the impression that she was encouraged to study engineering by her father because he had three daughters and no sons, so he treated her like a son. Then she rebelled by doing the most feminine thing possible, which is prostitution. Also, if she had gotten a job in engineering, she would surely have been pressured to sleep with the boss, given her beauty. And still only paid $500/month and stuck in some remote factory town. Many of her clients over the years have proposed marriage but she isn't interested (she told me this as if warning me not to make the same mistake as the other guys). She is very self-assured and independent-minded and probably intimidating to local men her own age, other than the top 1%. But the top 1% do not usually marry self-assured and independent-minded women: they want wives who will be absolutely faithful even when the man has extra-marital affairs. Women like my girl are for fun, these men say, not marriage. So she sometimes dates younger men (she's now 28 herself), chosen purely for looks, then grows tired of their immaturity and incompetence skills in bed and dumps them after a few months. Not sure what her plans are for children. I told her specifically to rule me out as a father, not that she gave any indication of wanting children with me. It's quite possible she has no interest in children. Quality girls like this are available in the USA, but way more expensive than in Ukraine and much harder to find for various reasons. Think $10K/month and up in the USA.

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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@shemp:

Your bullet point description of PUA is very interesting to me, because in modern sexual therapy literature the need for "sexual validation" is what you should primarily be attempting to transcend in order to actually enjoy sex. Also the sort of circular logic that demands "sexual validation" from group of "quality women" in the argument you presented is almost exactly the rationalization that is offered by very intelligent men who are in therapy because they are stuck in swamp of seeking ego validation from the particular "quality woman" who is their non-sexually interested wife/GF. In the marital situation, the argument would go more like:

1) I want to have sex and be validated for being sexy.
2) I love my wife.
3) I don't want to have "just sex" with somebody I don't love as much as I love my wife. That wouldn't be validating.
4) If I have sex with somebody other than my wife, than I might fall in love with her. That would threaten my marriage.
5) Ergo, I am stuck in a sexless marriage.

Anyways, very interesting that you decided to be sugar daddy, because I was going to suggest that the argument against prostitution was a weak point in the PUA circular validation of the desire for sexual validation you presented. So, for whatever reason, IMO, you chose the least wrong step out of that dysfunctional loop, because on some level in order to make this choice, you had to self-validate your own preferences and sexuality. If instead of being stuck in frustrating singles' market, you had been stuck in a sexless marriage, your choice to get a sugar-baby on the side would likely motivate your wife to join you in therapy (very few relatively low-sex-drive/interest partners are motivated to work on fixing problem until high-drive partner makes it very clear that divorce or new partner is the alternative.) So, it very likely might be the case that it would serve to make you more attractive on the singles market, because it falls under the general category of "will take care of own needs." Conversely, getting "better" at primarily seeking sexual validation is more like "working endlessly harder at getting others to fulfill your desires which you don't fully own as your own." IOW, it renders you more "wanty" and less "needy" and "wanty" is way sexier than "needy."

Let me offer a counter-example in which the female (me) was the sexually frustrated partner which might make the concept(s) more clear by contrast. Near the end of my marriage, my ex suggested that I would find that the only sort of man who could satisfy my sexuality (from his perspective) would be a quite thuggish fellow ( not refined "quality man" like himself.) He also very coolly suggested that I'd be asking him to come home very soon, because clearly I couldn't do without him. Then, when he found out that I had a dinner date with a guy with a PhD in Physics, he went completely bat-shit, because "the thug" he had imagined as non-worthy ego competitor suddenly vaporized. The "thug" my ex imagined is just like the "prostitute" and also the "quality woman" imagined in the circular PUA argument. They only exist in ego defensive state of mind.

I hope this makes some kind of rough sense :lol:

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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by shemp »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:22 am
... circular logic ...
PUA went through at least 3 phases:

1) Mystery era, based on the idea that the dating scene in nightclubs was like dealing with high school cliques. Popular girls in high school sometimes will not even speak to unpopular girls: "Excuse me, but are you trying to talk to me? I'm sorry but you're ugly and I don't talk to ugly girls. Goodbye." Similarly, in nightclubs, a girl ranked 7 (on the HB or Hot Babe scale of 1-10) will shoot down guys ranked lower than 7, or maybe lower than 8 since girls like to date up. So what a guy ranked 6 can do is bluff "cocky funny" attitude to make himself appear like an 8 or higher (confidence is one mark of high status males) while maybe shaking the girl's confidence with a neg so she temporarily thinks she only a 6 herself. If this bluff and neg work, then the girl will smile at the man. At that point, everyone in the club notices and the man has demonstrated higher value (DHV), so now even if the woman regains her confidence and thinks of herself as a 7 again, she has to accept that the man is higher value, thus 8 or above. The man can use this "social proof" of his status as an 8 to open sets with other girls ranked 7, then maybe ratchet himself up to rank 9 and from there to 10. Logic here is very circular: you're high status because other high status people think you're high status.

The whole shaky edifice of "fake it till you make it" and "it not what you are, it's what people think you are" comes tumbling down eventually, but while it works, it works very well. Hollywood has a similar phony culture, and naturally Mystery operated primarily out of that area of Los Angeles, before his nervous breakdown.

Mystery Method PUA lends itself to ridicule, though it does work on some ditzy women, same as those "limited time offer, buy now!" sales pitches on television work on idiots. Smarter people soon realized that the primary flaw in Mystery Merhod PUA is that you end up with junk women.

2) Geo arbitrage. After people dumped Mystery Method, they realized that western white men had much higher sexual market value in Eastern Europe and SE Asia than back home. Part of the higher value comes from money, part from white skin, which is highly prized in SEAsia (White God Factor). Swarms of PUAs invaded big cities in these areas, pumping and dumping gullible girls after promising to marry them. Most of the original "pussy paradises" have been ruined by such misbehaving PUAs. Last I heard, they are now pumping and dumping their way through Uganda and other countries of Africa.

Geo arbitrage continues to work, even where the girls are now suspicious of foreigners, but you have to settle down rather than just blowing in for a weekend of easy sex with a series of girls pulled off Tinder.

3) Self improvement. That 5 stage program I described above. This type PUA is of enduring value, but of course it's hard work.

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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@shemp:

We may be talking somewhat at cross-purposes, but what I would suggest is that 4) Internal Self Improvement is of more enduring value than 3) External Self Improvement. Some examples would be getting in touch with the core of your ego strength and/or life purpose and gaining self-awareness concerning your own motivations and any emotional reactivity you may experience or exhibit.

In my experience, once you have worked on (4), you are less likely to be primarily interested in factors related to (3.) Actually, maybe it's more like at that point (3) is reflexively either a "given" or "forgiven." IOW, you are setting your own high but fluid standards.

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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by shemp »

@7Wannabe5: Obviously, you can internally "improve" to the point you are happy alone, and then all this business of attracting the opposite sex becomes superfluous. Lots of people, including myself, naturally "improve" in this manner wth age. Hormone changes and all that. I feel little jealousy with regards to my sugar baby precisely because I have little real physical or psychological need for women or sex in my life at this point. Mostly I'm just continuing with women and sex because of inertia and too much time on my hands.

OP and other men participants in this thread seem far from my current state of detachment. And I would advise younger men against pretending to be beyond caring when they are not. Lying to yourself about your true desires sets you up for eventual nervous collapse. And getting back to the main focus of this forum, one common consequence after a young man denies his sexual desires for a long time then suffers nervous collapse, is for the young man to go on a spending spree, thus ruining his retirement plans.

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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@shemp:

Yeah, I hear you on the detachment is easy with decreasing hormones.

However, what I meant was more like internal work towards primarily only giving a crap about your own values/druthers. For instance, a while back a Foster Grandpa from India was hitting on me at a school where I teach, and I had the thought that maybe it would be fun to date him because I have never dated somebody from India. And this thought was reflective of my “explorer” personality type, not some analysis of relative value of on the open market.

Roughly analogous to how if you recognize that you have more than enough money to buy wide variety of foodstuffs, it’s not necessarily the case that you will always prefer to eat expensive food, and you definitely won’t care what anybody else thinks about your choices at the smorgasbord.

Of course, the reason why the internal work is after the completion of at least some external work is that you do have to have some brass in pocket first.

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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by Stahlmann »

Wrt some interesting input to Stahlmann's understanding of the world, let's extend my map together.
I realized that posting in C40 would be treated as derailment or attack on him, so I let it here.
__

if you do SEAmaxxing, don't you have the feeling that you abuse the other party?
I assume you haven't hidden the idea that you somehow free in your actions due to (not so poor) " poor aristocrat status".
Sure, not every romantic relationship must end in mariagge and kids.

How do you know that the other party doesn't "want something more"?
Yea, people can talk with each about it :lol: But some people can lie too :lol: (and it seems from "power dynamics analysis" that person with "lower power" will try to play victim card in future in case something goes wrong... and being adult for me means not to abuse other people [unless somebody pushes wrong buttons in me]).

I think the above relates to C40's blog and somehow I side with more with women perspective than with my interests :lol:

I think I'm pretty high in terms of Kegan atm.

tl;dr jelly of SEAmaxxing, sour grapes yada yada

____

[I'm bit tongue in cheeck with this, because your advice for me about being more emphatic was really interesting for me. I think you can't imagine how I care about things when I start caring about something {tangentially connected: Have you been waking up in the middle of the night let's say once to twice per work week during your first years of career? I don't think so. Btw, this one of my priorities to change. Also, I gladly will take any advice on this}. The problem is prolly that I can't show it in "mainstream"/neurotypical way.]

Btw, my stunt with my 2nd GF ended through FB. She complained about lack of communication.
I don't know what happened, because I don't talk too much - for me being with other person could be sign of building relationship. Also, I wanted to postpone sex for 90 days (from starting relationship; or avoid accusations of being too manipulative in the future; also check this number wrt advice from so called "American scientists knowledge") just to know if we both adult enough to be able to create something other than sex during that period.

Such cases with other humans.
Last edited by Stahlmann on Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ertyu
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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by ertyu »

bigato wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:41 pm
it's not your responsibility to guess people's intentions
taking this out of context to say that i think it is people's responsibility to guess other people's intentions. they shouldn't assume their guess is immediately right, and they should probably check afterwards, but they should guess. Example: someone is telling you about a problem they have. Your guess: maybe they're telling me this because they want me to offer to help or to offer a solution. Check: would you like help with X thing? Person: thanks actually that would be awesome/no actually, i was just venting. Other possible check, usually takes a closer/more intimate relationship: are you looking for advice/solutions or are you just venting? If i guess the person wants me to solve the problem and automatically assume my guess is right, i have had feedback that this can come across as dismissive and condescending. so a check is needed. performing the check leads to better results.

so yes, you can absolutely guess wrong and you should never assume your guess is right, but you should guess and then test your guess.

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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by Stahlmann »

Ideas of "enthusiat yes!" and "definitely no!" presented in local SexEd meet up was interesting.

The joke was that idea was presented by woman and most of the guests were man... and the topic of the meet up was "virginity".

I sometimes think that God exists :lol:

ertyu
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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by ertyu »

@bigato, what I meant is that one's default position shouldn't be, "there's no way to know for certain what others are really thinking or intending, so there's no point in even trying to form a hypothesis. If they want me to know what they are intending, they should open their mouths and clearly and unequivocally let me know." Idk if you are familiar with the terms ask culture vs. guess culture, but the above would form an extreme expression of ask culture. I lean on the ask culture side myself for many reasons, but I have realized that this above expression has significant limitations if you decide to let it shape how you communicate. Instead, a better formulation is, "there is no way to know for certain what others are thinking or intending, so i will be certain to be conscious that i've formed a hypothesis about their intentions (rather than automatically assuming i know what their intentions are) and i will make sure to test that hypothesis. As I do so, my ability to make hypotheses about people's intentions will improve both on a case by case basis and in general."

I don't know what it is you meant.

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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by Stahlmann »

On more serious note: I tend to be closer to ertyu's side.
The main problem is to get enough mature to know that the other person has made her choice freely and not to kill attraction in the process. Workin on this.
Last edited by Stahlmann on Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

ertyu
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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by ertyu »

Women, in particular, have been vocal all over the internet that they will NOT directly reject a man because they never know when they will encounter one of the ones who would go batshit violent or otherwise abusive and inappropriate instead of saying, "oof, sucks, but good luck finding what you're looking for, catch you around." The idiots spoil the pot for everyone.

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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by Stahlmann »

Sure, I have this info incorporated in my understanding of the world.
It also works the other way around - as somebody who cares a lot - if lady gives "yes!" I tend to provide more testing.

Btw, in reality I'm not that "stif" in terms of language... I used to be so "robotic" for a long time that being "non-robotic" is really problematic. Sure, also working on this :)

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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by Stahlmann »

There was somewhere topic that younger guy successfully dated slightly older women on the basis that he isn't looking for somebody to care about (in the sense of "classical" role of "the man as role model"), but he looks up to somebody to find inspiration and learn from.

This somehow blew my mind. Anyone to extrapolate this data point?

BTW, I don't speak about dream fueled so-called cougar arrangements -.-.

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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by Stahlmann »

Other update. I recently met an older retired guy. He's conservative and worried about imminent death. I'm currently outside "survival mode", so I tried bringing some positivity to his life by doing small chores in exchange for hospitality/gratitude.

I once tried to mumble that the world is place of conflicting ideas, fighting for my attention, so I try to not care, but I believe that it would be nicer that there would some top-down approach for some problems (let's not derail the topic by this point). It killed the conversation. I thought that being old equals with being "master sensei" who read all books and I could consult some ideas. It was bad thinking :lol: I'm heavily emotionally involved in some views that it gets difficult to see what average person sees ("It seems that average church/religion is the form of the oldest corporation. I think that they are using abusive selling techniques, because that they give (probably) false hopes to "more experienced" humans. Again, scheme which won't help me, but many people are involved in it. BTW, don't care about death. I survived many redemptions and condemnations just due to the way my brain works."). I send him jacob's perspective on social classes (I wanted it to be intellectual dog whistle, but I should simply work on my networking skills :lol:), politics as tool (after my emotionally charged faux pass). He said they're deep, but where is practical applicability.

I think I'm to analytical or too much butt sniffer, but I don't know how to stop this. Furthermore, I can't white lie.

The main idea behind creating some bond was that... well if you want to retire you should be around the same folks. :lol:

tldr; how to stop being too smart kid and connect with somebody with totally different background and be less transactional with people not interested in deconstruction absurdism

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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by Toska2 »

I reccomend pot, a hippie chick from yoga and some disc golf.

There is nothing to do but enjoy the moment. Its so out of your element that by the time you are aware of what you are doing, its over.

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Re: "swallowing" ​b​lackpill, overcoming it; moving forward; pseudoscience and woo-woo stuff

Post by fiby41 »

Stahlmann wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:39 pm
I thought that being old equals with being "master sensei" who read all books and I could consult some ideas.
न प्रवृद्धत्वं गुणहेतुः ॥
na pravr̥ddhatvaṁ guṇahetuḥ

na = not;
pra-vr̥ddhatvaṁ = progression in ageyness;
guṇa-hetuḥ = cause of virtue/merit/quality.

Cāṇakya-Sūtra 6.86

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