CitySteading™️

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Jin+Guice
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by Jin+Guice »

@EMJ:

Interesting article. The nested Catherine Ingram article is one of the most depressing things I've ever read.

One thing that puts me at odds with the dooming community is my belief that it's difficult to predict what will go wrong and how it will go wrong. This is necessary information to make a move. No point in moving to a location that will become more temperate and is likely to have access to fresh water if that place gets nuked, or faces a nuclear power plant meltdown, or some unknown unknown. Estimates of the apocalypse time line are generally next week to 5 years away. Perhaps this speaks to our inability to think on long timescales that Ingram discusses.

It's interesting that Mobbs moved and that he chose a somewhat remote location. It seems like his house will be safe in the stages of climate change that are likely to occur in his lifetime (unless the situation is much worse in Australia?) and I question the safety of remote locations that have access to resources in the event of total societal breakdown.

Riggerjack
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by Riggerjack »

@ Jason

Thanks, but I have been moving away from such circles the whole of my adult life. :-)

7Wannabe5
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Riggerjack:

Gotcha. I was actually thinking about the possibility that I may be teaching math to long-bus-ride-kids in a rural district in the near future, and the unlikelihood that I would discourage a gifted student from heading to the city or university center. OTOH, I also wouldn't discourage that student from heading back to the country after spending some time in the city. It seems to me that the possibilities/benefits inherent in the modern networked world still require some amount of real life experience or interaction to "pop."

classical_Liberal
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by classical_Liberal »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:18 pm
One thing that puts me at odds with the dooming community is my belief that it's difficult to predict what will go wrong and how it will go wrong. This is necessary information to make a move.
I agree with the first portion, disagree with the second. No matter what it is that goes wrong, homesteading is always better than "citysteading", when it happens. It's just unarguable to me as someone who has experienced rural living in flyover country. Disruption of services in a city leads to mass unrest within days. Sure, if someone has an awesome interdependent network they could mitigate the damage by sharing what they have, in return getting things from others, but if the disruption is long lasting (ie more than a few weeks), all bets are off.

In contrast see rural areas in flyover Midwest, even those who are not farmers or ranchers have the capacity to remain in virtual status quo for months in a service disruption. It's just the lifestyle, no need to be a "prepper" or a homesteader. LP tanks for heat, large gardens are the norm, hunting and fishing are normal leisure activities (these are not super cost effective means of obtaining food, but if the current "rules" don't matter they can be), large food storage both self canned and frozen, communities are naturally tighter-knit (so you already know who you can trust and who you can't), better generalized knowledge to self repair almost anything, well-water and a generator backup. On top of that, they don't have to deal with the immediate negatives of human nature in a crisis. They have time to plan before the first refugees/gangs make it to their homes.

If the purpose of "steading" is crisis aversion, then move out of the city. Literally a no-brainer.

jacob
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by jacob »

@c_L - I agree that homesteading is superior to citysteading in a crisis/disruption for all the reasons(*) you listed. I'm not convinced that it's also superior in a slow collapse.

(*) Essentially, the zombie problem.

To make the distinction, rural areas tend to have high stocks to compensate for their low/slow flows, whereas cities have low stocks because they have high and fast flows. If flows are slowly reduced, rural areas will see their stocks bleed out before cities. This is the point I was trying to make about being dependent on all things that can't be made locally. A city has enough demand to divert resources/flows their way. Rural areas are left to their own devices. This is what we're currently seeing in the economic/health collapse in rural communities.

However, once a city makes it through the first disruption and the lower flow becomes normalized, I think the number of zombies will be greatly diminished. Systems will be put in place because it's worthwhile to do so when dealing with +1000ppl/sqm.

When the Western Roman Empire collapsed, a process that took 80-150 years depending on which area we're talking, the rich villas in the countryside were some of the first to get run over; faraway outposts---small cities of no economic relevance---were abandoned and technology was downgraded to below bronze age in some cases going from spun ceramic bowls to handformed clay. Only the rich core was able to sustain a level of technology (factories) and trade with other parts of the world.

classical_Liberal
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by classical_Liberal »

@jacob
I tend to agree that decline will be slow, although there will probably be precipitating events. So you'd have to be lucky (or smart), in the sense that you don't live in a city impacted by those events.

My argument on this forum for slow decline has always been avoid "steading" completely. Mobility, plus in demand skill base, is the best alternative for city dwellers in either slow or fast decline. I realize personality and behavioral traits seem to lend most to the idea of "steading" or hunkering down, as I've called it before. In that case, rural is the only option. Frankly, slow decline over 50-150 years in a given rural area is manageable in a human lifetime as long as one had access to food, water, basic energy. Non localized trade and commerce is great, but is more important for any resurgence period.

Edit: IOW, the slow collapse of the Western Empire was a really bad time to be a Roman, but it was a pretty good time to be a Visigoth.

jacob
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by jacob »

Mobility works fine when it's done by individuals at a slow trickle, but when it turns into mass wanderings because of regional stress, the locals at the receiving areas will put up barriers. We're already seeing how that works. Relocations would thus have to be done far in advance of general awareness of the stressor.

Ultimately, the only way around this is diversification and essentially maintaining more than one position rather than relying on being able to change it really fast or making it solid enough.

classical_Liberal
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by classical_Liberal »

@jacob
What we are seeing in Europe wrt mass wandering/emmigration are "steaders", who have failed, due to precipitating events. Those events were caused, at least in part, by slow decline. Those who were skilled in mobility and had in demand skills left years ago as the decline became evident (see already high populations of previous migrants). Don't get me wrong, mobility is flawed in that some events are not predictable and/or very difficult to see. I would argue though, someone who has a life designed for mobility vs "steading" are generally the early exiters.

What we are seeing at the southern US border is not a direct result of slow decline. This has been happening since the divergent living standards began post WWII (lack of progress on one side). Mobility focused individuals could have come the the US when this became obvious in the 1950's without issue. Slower minded folks who made it by the 1980's are citizens. Those who have waited until now are going to have problems.

Edit: I think our differences here are related to your preference to think in terms of scalability. IOW how can we fix a problem for everyone/most people. Whereas, I don't believe that is possible.

Jin+Guice
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by Jin+Guice »

In my mind "dooming" refers specifically to a quick and global (or national) collapse. So, you can't escape by being mobile at the time of the event. Also, things aren't going to recover on the scale of weeks or months. My understanding of how climate change is likely to unfold in my lifetime is a slow collapse with several precipitating regional events. However, based on Ingram's article and Mobbs' move to the country, it seems like they're anticipating a quick global (Ingram) or at least national (Mobbs) collapse. I agree that a rural homesteader has an initial advantage over a city-steader. However, you better be pretty damn self-reliant to make it more than a week or two and the hungry mobs are eventually going to come.

I agree that in a regional/ less prolonged/ non-total collapse the homesteader has the obvious advantages because, to steal Jacob's explanation, they have the stock while the city depends on the flow. I think there is no disagreement, just a problem of terminology, but the resulting discussion was unexpectedly interesting.

I know I brought survivalists into the discussion, but I don't think the point of "steading" is to survive a collapse. I was questioning Mobbs' motivation in light of his beliefs. To me "steading" is the last stage of frugality, a way which greatly (but not totally) accounts for ecological impacts. It's the only way to totally or almost totally remove yourself from reliance on the money economy and still participate in society. This will have the side effect of benefiting you in most collapse scenarios.

George the original one
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by George the original one »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:25 pm
Mobility focused individuals could have come the the US when this became obvious in the 1950's without issue. Slower minded folks who made it by the 1980's are citizens. Those who have waited until now are going to have problems.
I'm having troubles with this characterization because it ignores the age of the individuals. If you were a babe in arms in 1950, you aren't going to make the decision to migrate until at least the mid-60s and more than likely the attempts will be in the '70s. Mexico's population is known to be strongly youthful due to birthrate, such that it wasn't possible for the majority to even consider migrating before the '80s unless your parents made the decision for you.

Another thing we know about the current migrants crossing our southern border is that many of them are not even Mexican. They mainly come from countries south of Mexico.

One last point. Most of the Mexican migrants I've known via my brother do not become US citizens. [He's lived in Brownsville, TX since 1974. He married a Mexican residing in Brownsville about 1977 and she passed away in 2014. He remarried to a Mexican widow residing in Brownsville a couple years ago. Neither of his wives became citizens and their extended families are mixed on becoming citizens. Also, neither wife bothered to learn English because there is no need in a border town like Brownsville.]

classical_Liberal
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by classical_Liberal »

@J+G
I'm not going to turn this into a doomer thread. So just this one response, I disagree that a "quick collapse" situation of a nation is not foreseeable to at least some degree, at least that the probabilities of such an event have increased dramatically. My point is that a person with a mobility designed lifestyle (plus skills deemed helpful to a receiving community/society) is the most likely to leave, and leave earlier. This may cause a type-II error, but if you're mobility minded the loss would be insignificant. Whereas a steader would lose greatly in such an error. This is basically why mobility minded folks have an advantage in any type of slow or fast collapse. My point is simply if you need to be a "steader", for whatever reason, and are doing so with some form of collapse as a reason, then rural beats urban hands down.

@GTOO
Probably not the best example to make my point. I just wanted to make it clear that the refugee"crisis" at the US southern border isn't really new. It's just en vogue as part of the blue/red ridiculousness. The SW US has always had a mexican cultural vibe, since it used to be Mexico.

Of course people are always going to be "sticky" culturally. I would argue that a mobility based person has more flexibility in that regard as part of the skill set needed for that type of life. So people who refuse to learn to fit in culturally in a new place will always have more trouble integrating, making their mobility skill set flawed.

Back to the original thread...
I still think citysteading requires more interdependence skill (flow) whereas rural homesteading requires independence skill (stock).

Either way, one can remove themself further from the money economy. I just wonder why that would be a worthwhile goal in interdependence. Does it really matter if my neighbor fixes my bike and I give him my home grown tomatoes later in the year, or if I give him $20 for services and later he gives me $20 for the tomatoes? I grok why spending is a generally good measure of consumption, but living moneyless in an interdependent situation is simply passing the buck (pun intended). Whereas being independant, I can fix my own bike AND grow my own tomatoes actually has value outside of the money economy, but it doesn't really cut overall resources used either.

7Wannabe5
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I have given this matter some amount of consideration, and IMO what is being debated here is a 1st degree solution to what is likely to be a 3rd degree problem. Whether you choose rural, city, suburban, mobile or some combination of these, the critical thing is understanding the lay of the land and mapping alternative sources. For instance, you could drill your own well/construct cachement system, or you could strike up a conversation with the guy who drives the truck that delivers jugs of water to your local Wal-Mart in order to ascertain weak spots in that system, or you could attend meeting of local water board and take a tour of water filtration facility, or you could look at a USGS map and determine the local low spot and determine whether/when there is water cachement there, and/or you could read climate change report to ascertain changes to rainfall in 20 years etc. etc. etc. I think many members of this forum have the capability to be the local hero who has some inkling about how to get a local sub-station back online in extended crisis situation.

In her brilliant book, "The Resilient Gardener: Food Production and Self-Reliance in Uncertain Times" , Carol Deppe makes the point that large scale emergencies or stresses are not all that different than small scale personal emergencies or stresses. For instance, the preparations you might make for "new baby in the house" might be fairly redundant with the preparations you would make for possibility of World War 3. So, there is only marginal need for individual or household to take next steps beyond this. If you have some notion about how to plant potatoes, it is unlikely you will end up eating the bark off of trees.

Since I grew up in suburban Detroit in the 70s, and every member of the extended families of both my mother and my father fled the city(except my maternal grandmother who was super tough and once fought off a young mugger trying to snatch her purse), sooner or later, after the race riots combined with slump of auto industry, and I have tutored in a school full of those who were "left behind", I might have a slightly different take on slow collapse mobility option than other members of the forum. I don't want to incite hot political discussion, but the ramifications of such events can be very long lasting to the extent that just a couple years ago, I was made privy (trapped as audience) to the plans of a local rural militia to protect the main highway entrance to county if the "zombies" from the city ever head their way. However, the reality of the matter is that the urban youth most likely to riot are also extremely unlikely to feel secure leaving their own turf. It will be like a flare-up of a very quick death epidemic that burns itself out in close circle of initial victims.

white belt
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by white belt »

Have any opinions changed regarding this topic after COVID-19? I think it served as a small example of a societal disruption/descent. It would seem that less densely populated areas faired better during the pandemic initially, but over the long term I’m not so sure.

Edit: I see this thread as debating the merits of urban homesteading, while perhaps the Apartment Homesteading thread is mostly focused on tactics and techniques that may work, not so much on philosophy.

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Alphaville
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by Alphaville »

what da... where did this come from! wow i got a lot to catch up with...

Qazwer
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by Qazwer »

The Plummer example upthread is missing a key factor. On average the city is more productive. That does not mean that every job is. This increased productivity increases costs as the productive individuals can afford more. In order for the worker that might be equally productive to pay rent and other inconveniences of city life (commuting etc) the pay increases. The engineer might be more productive in Silicon Valley. All the people that support the engineer are likely not.
We do not know how telework post COVID changes this dynamic.
From a stocks and flows perspective in a decline environment, it is not clear how much that engineer can control societal flows over the next 100 years which will determine the real stove value of city life vs rural if everything decreases. Right now more people are moving into cities including the poorest cities. The poorest of them take advantage of the waste flows which are still better than rural life.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behind_ ... l_Forevers

Even if there was in general less, it is not clear to me how the waste flows of cities would compare to rural lives if the cities are politically strong enough to divert resource flows. Cities also tend to collect refugees in the worst of times over the millenia

chenda
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by chenda »

white belt wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 7:15 pm
Have any opinions changed regarding this topic after COVID-19?
It's confirmed my belief that the best option is to live in a town or small city close enough to a major conabation to benefit from the economic overspill, but distant enough to avoid the inevitable costs of big city life. A town big enough where you can walk to all your amenities and can support a hospital (I wonder how much living proximity to a hospital was a variable in covid survival rates ?)

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Alphaville
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by Alphaville »

chenda wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:30 am
It's confirmed my belief that the best option is to live in a town or small city close enough to a major conabation to benefit from the economic overspill, but distant enough to avoid the inevitable costs of big city life. A town big enough where you can walk to all your amenities and can support a hospital (I wonder how much living proximity to a hospital was a variable in covid survival rates ?)
funny thing... covid has increased my urgency to return to a big city because, even though i know the risks, i realize more than ever that we can die at anytime, for any reason, and i don't have a lot of time left to waste being afraid of the inevitable outcome.

this is not to say i will take no precautions. but do i want to go into my death wishing i had done this and that and the other? nope...

i've suffered enough rural living to last me a lifetime :lol:

well, for vacation and temporary sanatorium, rural is ok. "restful."

and medium sized cities are economically sound but... meh.

might be different in the uk where you have one gigantic city, and actual villages, and rail networks, and things are relatively nearer. but here in the us... everything is far away and spread out and the pressure to embrace a car-based lifestyle is constant. even our 2nd biggest city (l.a.) is all about the car.

worst part about this is that americans who haven't lived elsewhere assume this is normal. a "this is water" kind of situation.

--

eta: this morning's new york times has a feature about this amazing photographer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deana_Lawson

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/05/maga ... e=Homepage

based in brooklyn. of course! and a new show coming up at the guggenheim.

meanwhile, i contemplate the strip malls and crosstown highways and dull sameness of my desert town... yeah yeah i appreciate what we have: decent supply chains... a few nice people... and not much else :evil:

-

so yeah, you can get better "stuff" in a medium city than in a rural setting. but i don't want "stuff." and i don't want "comfort." and i don't want to live forever. i want meaning. and transcendence. and i can't order that from amazon. for that, i need a proper... temple.

Riggerjack
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by Riggerjack »

@ white belt,

Not at all. C19 hit it's all time high in my county Jan 6, 2021. 16 new cases per day. Then back to the norm of about 6. If we didn't have a Navy base...

A few shelves were bare, but overall, C19 has just meant wear a mask, and watch property values skyrocket. Locally, it's an inconvenience, rather than a disaster.

Last summer, we were dealing with 1 case a day or less. Communicable diseases and population density go hand in hand.

chenda
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by chenda »

@Alphaville - yes that's true, I'm in a small city...its not really remote, but you get the best of both worlds. Of course such areas are not always cheap...

But you are car free yes, there are pavements/sidewalks you can get about on in your town ?

@Riggerjack - but you must be getting overrun with microsoft executives, yoga studios and whole foods yes ? ;)
Last edited by chenda on Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Alphaville
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Re: CitySteading™️

Post by Alphaville »

chenda wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:09 am
@Alphaville - yes that's true, I'm in a small city in the south downs, all rolling hills and thatched cottages and the like but only an hour on the train from central london, a few hours from France...so its not really remote, but you get the best of both worlds. Of course such areas are not always cheap...

But you are car free yes, there are pavements/sidewalks you can get about on in your town ?
yeah i am in the part of the city where you can walk to shopping amenities have transit etc. but it's basically a confined corridor.

the majority of the city is a vast sprawl not accessible to transit, it grew uncontrolled during the postwar in the model of california. now they're trying to jam some urban density in a thin sliver. and it works!... but only to a point, and not enough cultural offerings for a city library rat & museum fiend & music glutton like yours truly.

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