Call Out to HSP INFJs: what makes you feel content/useful?

[TopHatFox]

I was referring to Ego. @daylen, I think we agree that it's at least somewhat helpful to have a guide into the career question using a few personality inventories

[daylen]

I know, ha. I was talking to Ego.

Many people misinterpret what I say and add on extra stuff. I am not even sure what I believe.

[theanimal]

Listen to Ego. The only one stopping you from doing what you want is yourself. Nobody has told you you have to look at spreadsheets. It can be scary to make a change but if you don't do it you're just going to keep writing these posts, staying in the same place and asking the same questions, getting more and more terse responses from everyone on here. Making a change always involves risk. If you fail so what, at least you tried something. You've asked enough questions. Now time to decide and do.

[Ego]

@THF, I didn't change TO something else. I grew. I became more skilled at being comfortable and actually learned to enjoy a wider variety of situations.

I once had a basketball coach who periodically made the team scrimmage with our dominate hands tucked inside our t-shirts. We were only allowed to touch the ball with our non-dominant hands. At first it was pathetic to watch. Basketball is a game where ambidextrousness is extremely valuable because it throws off defensive players who have more than 2X the variables to anticipate over the non-ambidextrous player. The scrimmages highlighted our weaknesses and allowed us to work on them. He would follow up with non-dominant hand drills and encouraged us to practice them on our own.

To stretch the sports metaphor, I believe Myers Briggs highlights the weakness then tells you there is not much you can do about them. That is learned helplessness.

In one of your other threads you used MB to rule out almost ever money making opportunity in existence. It is a sad thing to watch because I know from reading your journals over the years that you are smart, hard working and adaptable.

Life is a game where the metaphorical ambidextrousness is extremely valuable.

[daylen]

To stretch the sports metaphor, I believe Myers Briggs highlights the weakness then tells you there is not much you can do about them. That is learned helplessness.

Earlier in this thread I framed a path for future growth using my variant of this personality model without highlighting weaknesses. Actually, I do it a lot.

[Ego]

This one?

I suspect that your scope of what a path can be is too narrow (Ni). The antidote is to select a moderate yet flexible path that allows for expansion/modification over time. The core would be something simple and conservative with respect to social norms (Fe), but it can be altered indefinitely in a way that you cannot yet foresee (Ti). The rest will follow (Se).

[daylen]

How so?

[7Wannabe5]

One observation I might offer is that THF seems to be an individual who craves counseling, but not so much an individual who offers counseling. To the best of my recollection, THF has never offered counseling to a member of this forum in the many years he has contributed.

IOW, if I may make use of more simplified model than MBTI, THF exhibits some behavior consistent with being locked in his juvenile feminine quadrant, whereas most of the members of this forum tend more towards being somewhat locked in their adult masculine quadrants. However, it has been my observation that most reasonably functional adults tend towards either balancing juvenile feminine functioning with adult masculine functioning OR juvenile masculine functioning with adult feminine functioning. This is obviously true of THF. Even though he does not often write with his adult masculine voice, his reported functioning in that realm is obviously well above average. Certainly well above mine

So, my recommendation would be that THF needs to self-aware move more in the direction of expanding his adult feminine functioning, engaging in practices consistent with effective self-soothing or more in the direction of his juvenile masculine quadrant, by engaging in practices consistent with expansion of imaginative play or adventure or both.

There is very little to be gained by seeking adult feminine energy (soothing counseling and care) from a forum full of individuals who are mostly locked in their adult masculine energy. All they will do is communicate some variation on "Stiff upper lip, Dude." , because they are soft in the middle, just like you, but they don't like to go there.

Unfortunately, although I am a person who is fairly well balanced in adult feminine and juvenile masculine energy, I write with my Emperor-has-no-clothes free-wheeling juvenile masculine, so I can not offer the benefit of my more Mrs. Santa Claus "presence" to soften this message.

[take2]

There is very little to be gained by seeking adult feminine energy (soothing counseling and care) from a forum full of individuals who are mostly locked in their adult masculine energy. All they will do is communicate some variation on "Stiff upper lip, Dude." , because they are soft in the middle, just like you, but they don't like to go there.

Any suggested resources for masculine/feminine energy quadrants? Haven’t heard of this before but sounds interesting.

[slowtraveler]

@Ego

I have not read the book about neuroplasticity but I have read about and found the topic fascinating. From what I have read, it is easier in youth but look at Colonol Sanders buildig a global franchise in retirement age, anything is possible.

Can I ask for some more radical examples of your growth? I find it fascinating as a field of study.

I'll share my story of change from functional but isolated and cannabis-dependant to being happier with people and without cannabis. In reality, my need for cannabis was just a story I told myself.

I'm relatively young but I smoked for all of my adult life until moving out. Initially, I found it helped me relax to study. I used it once every few months the first 2 or 3 times until it started affecting me. Then, I started almost daily and I was getting better grades than ever in harder classes. I was training hard at the mma dojo and gym every day. I started studying biology to better understand the effects of cannabis and how to become stronger. It motivated me. It helped me finalize my transition from weak to strong. It made me smarter and I knew for a fact, I would never stop.

After some years, I finished pre-med, realized the long journey ahead, got what I needed to out of the physical strength as I was no longer in an environment where fighting was needed, and the substance that gave me so much energy began to tire me. I switched to a volcano vaporizer as smoking gave me bronchitis but I couldnt stop. The hunger I always felt for it consumed a lot of time. I learned to grow it so I could stop wasting so much money and provide my own medicine for myself so I took a problem and made it into a new skill.

I then took the hippyish, nature loving vibe of the plant and built on that. I learned to meditate, compost, garden other fruits/vegetables, fast, and feel happy with almost nothing.

I tried quitting many times with marijuana anonymous, SMART meeting (much more helpful than 12 steps), etc. I managed to get 2 different periods of 6+ sober months but I returned to the plant. Living at home felt so boring, nothing to stimulate, my motivation gone, I rarely felt the energy to travel or see new. I kept studying as per my parent's wishes but my heart wasn't into it.

ERE was a huge turning point. It integrated the power and freedom of money with the sustainability and minimalism I loved but felt contradicted money. It freed me by teaching me how to use money as a tool for life rather than working just for money. I went hardcore and lived on less than a Jacob for years but at my parent's home so it was heavily subsidized.

I worked harder, stopped school and started studying more about business, taxes, investing so I could move out. The capital I saved gave me freedom. I had almost no possessions, my passport situation handled, and I was waiting for the year end to leave but I failed at through hiking and had nothing left to do in my home country. All the readiness made it easy to take the cheap flight I found and leave within a few weeks.

I immediately sobered up once I left and easily relative to my years of effort before. I spent about a year recovering from my previous lifestyle but now I live a mostly nomadic life following my heart. I am sober for over 2 years with about a 1 week period where I did use in Europe. I live a peaceful, happy life without smoking. I travel, learn the local language, see the nature, work, optimize my expenses, and live a relaxed life. Even though all of my previous adult life had this subtance as a daily habit, I don't miss it and my new story is something I'll be happy I lived out over my previous story once I'm old and whithering.

To OP

Some days suck but that is part of life. I get sick far more often living in a different continent with different foods and customs but that is part of the price and I'm happy to pay it. Some days I bike in monsoon floods, take a dizzying ferry to a bus, shower at the bus station with a laddle and cold water, take that bus to another bus, to another bus, wake up underslept somewhere I don't know the language with a headache and dizziness and have to walk a few miles to find a cheap enough bike rental to then go compare different rooms. This can be exhausting. There's no way to always feel content. Life is suffering according to buddha. Embrace the hardship, it will sweeten the wins and you'll be able to work through the hard, isolating times to build a better story.

I never called myself depressed because I could always get out of bed, I was always happy to eat some good food, cook, or declutter but needing this plant was my story and I had to build a way out. I spent days writing and filtering out the benfits and costs of the story, long and short term. The 2nd and 3rd order benefits and costs. I also see the story you are telling yourself but our stories are the threads we live, it is rare someone can just stop their story even if they are aware enough to see the story. Typically, they have to build a different story to live.

You can do that. You can find joy in your life now and build a new story, every life has hardship, there is no escaping this but there is also joy and opportunity to transform it. I applaud you for still trying and I trust you will find your solution with time, effort, and a complete switch of direction. I still think you should start building a travel van asap. You'll develop trade skills, have a new home, and a reason to travel. If it fails, you'll have a new pivot point and new skills. You could do a few van conversions a year from this point to cover your tiny expenses.

Realistically, you'll rationalize why it's not for you as you have but some day, you'll see it in your benefit and some of these seeds will grow into a better life for you.

Tldr: Overcoming hardship, old problems, growth makes me content

[7Wannabe5]

@anesde:

It's a simplified Jungian model I invented years ago when I was in marital therapy. It can also be helpful if you assign a spirit animal to each quadrant for yourself. For instance, my adult feminine is the deer/cow (depending on how "bloated" I have allowed my functioning in that realm to become), my adult masculine is the snowy owl, my juvenile feminine is the bunny, and my juvenile masculine is the monkey.

Then you can see how you bring different combinations of these energies to different situations. For instance, on a first date I am usually in bun-key mode, but if I was seriously considering a contract, I would bring in the snowy owl.

[Ego]

Can I ask for some more radical examples of your growth? I find it fascinating as a field of study.

Let's say I have experienced what @Jacob's presented here.

Beyond that, no, I don't think one should spend more time with others once satisfied. Going beyond that level is like eating too much ice cream or dopamine as it is. People have various sensitivities towards dopamine. If you're blessed with a high sensitivity, you don't need much stimulation... putting yourself in a situation where you get overstimulated might even be detrimental. I know if I get into a horribly social situation, like say a baby shower or a restaurant group setting with more than 2 other persons, my brain will start shutting down "external sensors" trying to protect itself from the sensory overload. The side effect of this is that I become irritated and come across as an unpleasant person whereas in reality I like to think that it's just my immature response to a to me unpleasant situation; so I deliberately AVOID these situations even if "normal people" think they're great or important. This seems like the more mature response.

I don't want to put words in @Jacob's mouth but this seems to imply that dopamine sensitivity is fixed. It is not. For instance, cocaine users flood the brain with dopamine and with repeated use change the entire dopamine pathway. The dopamine receptors become less available. The dopamine transporters become less available. The brain releases less and less over time.

In my experience, with repeated exposure to social situations I became less overwhelmed. I actually learned to enjoy it in measured doses. (socializing that is) That said, I've never been to a baby shower. Is that something guys have to attend these days? If anyone has a photo of Jacob at a baby shower I'd pay good money for it.

[7Wannabe5]

@Ego:

Most baby showers are pretty much like being stuck in a studio audience forced to watch live episode of The View. The teacher's lounge at an elementary school can sometimes be like that too, so I can only take it in small, intermittent doses. OTOH, most of the women with whom I choose to associate interact more like an episode of "Girls."

I agree with your take that you can self-aware choose to change your biochemical paths, but doing that works better if you already have some kind of grasp of the overall map of possibilities and where you are starting out from. Also, there are limits to ability to stretch your inherent rubber-band. For instance, I believe that I have a pretty good grasp on classroom management at this point in my practice, even though I am not a naturally authoritative type, but it still very often happens that some child will say something to me like "I think that maybe you are really a nice teacher." or "When you yell, it is too soft like a kitten, so that is why I do not listen." (imagine 8 year old with strong Middle-Eastern accent saying this) and I will just crack up.

[EdithKeeler]

I’m not a HSP INFJ. I’m a chronically depressed ENTJ who mostly doubts the validity of the MBTI.

But I have lived a little bit. And I’ve offered similar advice to you elsewhere, but I’ll repeat it here: you’ll be happier when you stop the analysis paralysis and navel gazing and go out and do stuff, meet people, have different experiences.

Some you will like. Do more of those, and more similar to those.

Some you will hate or will feel really uncomfortable. Do less of those, and think about why they are uncomfortable. You did the finance thing. Did you hate it because of the work itself? The people? The office environment? (I knew a guy who changed jobs and did essentially the same job he’d done before, but he hated it. He couldn’t figure out why—he’d always loved the work and only left his old job because of money. He liked the people at his new job. His commute was shorter. All should have been great. It wasn’t until he moved his desk that he realized there was a weird persistent hum from an old light at his prior desk. It was barely audible.... but somehow that noise grated on his nerves so much and colored his view of everything. Of course your issues may not be so simple—only you can know).

This is the thing I wish I’d figured out sooner: There is no Right Answer to life. There’s no right career, no right amount of money to have in the bank, no right way to be. It’s really easy to come out of college thinking you have to do the Right Thing. After all, you’ve spent the last 16 years being told there’s a right answer and a wrong answer, and somehow that suggests there’s some path you’re supposed to follow. Then you graduate and no one is grading your papers or giving you reinforcing feedback that what you’re doing is correct.

My suggestion is don’t worry about retirement right now. Sure, watch your money and stuff, but as an outside observer, I think you’ve gotten way too wrapped up in ERE, MBTI, HSP, etc. (why label everything?)

You’ve been asking essentially the same questions in this forum for a couple of years now, and I think that’s just another form of looking for the Right Answer. My answer is just my answer, it’s not the Right One. Nor is Ego’s, or Daylen’s or Jacob’s or 7W5’s. Only you can find the right answer for you...and what is the right answer today may not be the same answer 2 or 5 or 10 years from now.

[daylen]

I will probably post a typing guide soon, but for now I will give some background on why Fox is an INFJ and Ego is an ENTJ in my model.

Here is the most clear and consistent model I have used. Models tend to be more handy for Ti-uses that are not afraid to generate their own extensions and interpretations. The danger of taking it as set and stone is more of an issue for those with high Te.

https://daylenjbonner.blogspot.com/2019 ... tions.html

Fox
The most obvious clue is that he almost always stays on topic. Each post/thread has a clear purpose. His attention converges onto what he needs and once he receives what he came for he leaves. Ni is one of the primary two functions (all that are needed to type someone but it is a good idea to check others).

The next clue is that he cares how others perceive him and his depressed mood seems correlated with how well he is fitting into the social atmosphere. This is the most visible function to an outside observer (hence why he may seem extroverted to us). Another observation is that he tends not to select what feedback he likes. He comes across as neutral rather than agreeable/disagreeable. Fe is one of the primary two functions.

He does not talk much about past (Si). He does not get side tracked (Ne). He does not seem to have many non-negotiable values (Fi).

The nail in the coffin is Te. Very rarely does he interface with objects/models/research and select his favorites. This is also related how he ignores multi-step operations. He is looking for the initial or final points, not the serial steps in-between. What others think is not worth keeping track of unless it is done in his own Ti language. Hence, Te is PoLR (point of least resistance, 7th slot).

So INFJ fits best in my estimation Ni Fe Ti Se - Ne Fi Te Si. The developmental path involves strengthening Ti and Se.

Ego
I went back and looked at your posts from 2011 and found that you fit the same type then as you do now. You are a fixed point in this model with 16 degrees of freedom. This is why I have responded in the past to your "Humans can change" slogan with "With respect to what?". I am sure we can agree on many ways that humans can change. The cognitive functions have been selected precisely because they tend to change less with respect to those other traits such as carpentry or ping pong ability.

Almost all of your posts are thoughts/quotes from somewhere/someone else that you chose to repeat here (Te-Fi). Often without any additions or exceptions (Ti).

Your knowledge is based on universal principles that can be applied to anyone (Ni). You do not get side tracked (Ne).

When someone asks how you changed above you avoided giving specific details (Si) and instead condensed all of your past into a single insight (Ni) based on a quote (Te). Si seems PoLR to me.

ENTJ fits you best over the last eight years based on some sampling of your posts here. Te Ni Se Fi - Ti Ne Si Fe. With Si PoLR you would tend to only remember details about your past if there is some insight to gain from them. In opposition to this, I can remember countless details that mean absolutely nothing with Si in third slot. An interesting question is which is more story like? Si or Ni? Si is impressionistic, concrete, linear, and particular knowing. Ni is intuitive, abstract, atomistic, and universal knowing. I tell myself a story about how a series of particulars lead to the position in time I am in now. You tell yourself a story about what universals encapsulate all of time.

[daylen]

The functions are dichotomies, but clearly the grey area can be considered. I think that we can all agree that people are different in some ways and similar in others. We can also agree that changing some things are more challenging than others. The major disagreements are about how much. This is a matter of degree which can only be resolved objectively with a statistical analysis. Otherwise, it is one frame versus another. Though, analysis of any kind requires an agreed upon frame before data can even be generated/interpreted.

There exist trade-offs between Ti/Te, Fi/Fe, Si/Se, and Ni/Ne. This is the principle of exclusivity. By focusing on one you are giving up the potential to reach a certain level of capability in another. You cannot be perfect at everything - if you agree with this then the model has at least some merit.

Take fast versus slow twitch muscles as a metaphor. Sure, most people could have more of each (at the expense of what else?), but elite athletes can hurt their performance at football by training for a marathon. The same principle here is being used in personality models. The difference is that the nervous system is the focus and it is an extremely complex object. Does that mean we should throw up our hands and declare personality meaningless? That sounds boring to me. I think the ambiguity and difficulty is exciting.

[7Wannabe5]

@daylen:

Very interesting and useful!

I am constantly side-tracked, with only a few notable exceptions, but I hope you still like me, how did I end up here?.- ENTP

[7Wannabe5]

@daylen:

Your method also made it very easy for me to figure out that my BF is a ESTJ (refused to take the test)and that pretty explains everything about why he was fun to date, but terrible to live with.

[TopHatFox]

Hm, I have an idea: what if, I use the MPA to work for a non-profit while getting the MS in counseling psychology over 2 years. Let’s be real, 4-7 years of research is probably going to be awful for me, and you don’t need to be a psychologist to be a therapist, nor to have a private practice. After 1-2 years of work xp and getting an LMHC license, I could also offer remote therapy as I’m traveling.

The above strategy would result in hitting the 200-300k mark, working for an organization who’s mission I don’t have cognitive dissonance with, and also getting an additional credential to pivot to therapy. I could maybe get a phd in counseling psych later on, like after I have more $$ and run out of trails to hike.

[suomalainen]

I find this the most practical and useful advice here:

you’ll be happier when you stop the analysis paralysis and navel gazing and go out and do stuff, meet people, have different experiences.

Some you will like. Do more of those, and more similar to those. Some you will hate or will feel really uncomfortable. Do less of those, and think about why they are uncomfortable.
...
This is the thing I wish I’d figured out sooner: There is no Right Answer to life. There’s no right career, no right amount of money to have in the bank, no right way to be. It’s really easy to come out of college thinking you have to do the Right Thing. After all, you’ve spent the last 16 years being told there’s a right answer and a wrong answer, and somehow that suggests there’s some path you’re supposed to follow. Then you graduate and no one is grading your papers or giving you reinforcing feedback that what you’re doing is correct.

Another way to put it is that a sign of maturity is being able to deal with ambiguity. Maybe just job hop until you land on something that interests you even a little bit, and then expand on it.