C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

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TopHatFox
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C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by TopHatFox » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:56 pm

You two seem to be pretty good at post-grad relationships. I’ve read lots about feminist ideas in my liberal arts college and about red pill ideas immediately after graduation, but would like to explore something else. If there is something out there that will help, I want to learn it.

So what books do you suggest to read on relationships/dating? Any one else can suggest, but only if they have success on dating, like a healthy relationship or relationships for a few yrs. More weight added if relevant to Millenial dating.

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by bigato » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:16 pm

“Women who love too much”, by Robin Norwood

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:42 pm

I believe that C40 and I have both recommended "The Way of the Superior Man:A Spiritual Guide to Mastering the Challenges of Women, Work, and Sexual Desire" by Deida and "She Comes First: A Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring a Woman" by Kerner. Both of these authors are pro-masculinity WITHOUT being even the slightest bit misogynist.

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by thegreatvoid » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:58 pm

" The Feminist Lie: It was never about equality "

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by Loner » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:58 pm

What is it, specifically, you'd like to learn?

I don't think millenial dating is much different from dating at any other time of place. When you read Ovid, you quickly realize that seduction/dating principles have not changed for a long time (because humans remain the same). Because of this, books on social skills and psychology in general are probably perfectly appropriate if what you want is to be "more successfull" with the ladies, however it is you define success. Moreover, I'd say that to be more successful at relationships, it's probably more important to know what we want than to understand "millenial dating", unless you ardently desire dating the archetypal millenial.

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by Ego » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:37 am

The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, Stephen Covey

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by Jean » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:25 am

The way of the superior man was recomanded to me by 7w5 and helped me greatly.
Anna Karenina by tolstoï is a great book too.

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by frihet » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:43 am

True to my tradition of dropping unasked for spiritual tidbits. Here is another one, a bit dangerous, but extremely practical and mechanical. You don't need to believe anything just be able to apply muscular tension at certain spots, hold your breath and endure discomfort. It is my personal experience that awakening this energy makes you charismatic and powerful. Something that obviously can attract women. Unfortunately, I can't practice this technique myself as I get heartburn, which is one of the warned about possible side effects. So at your own risk.......

For Stahlman also....do this for 2 months and then go to your internet meeting groups.......
'
"Within two weeks you will reach a level from where one can begin with tummo. 1. Do the exercises in the morning before you’ve eaten. Don’t do them with something in the stomach! Don't do them in the evening, you will probably not be able to sleep.2. You will already notice increased self-confidence, willpower, sexual lust, vital masculinity/femininity, appetite, potency and a strong feeling for your territory and knowing what you want, and what is yours."

"My experience is that the side-effects vanish after some time,it becomes completely effortless and gentle. Everything becomes a source of lust somehow (and the girls love you, don't know how, but they somehow feel it)."

http://alayapragmatica.blogspot.com/201 ... tummo.html

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by TopHatFox » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:38 am

@frihet, omg lol, sometimes it seems like just having a conversation with the opposite sex has become something that requires black magic. :P

Like, you just talk to them. Listen, share some interests. If they ask questions and have open body language, great keep going. If they don't, they're likely not interested, bail. If you're getting mostly the latter, their availability may be low, their attraction for you may be low, you may need to move to another place, or try different groups. I think what directs men straight into the red pill is how grueling and one-sided online dating can be, but that kind of mindset isn't healthy; it's too negative and makes it easy to hate the world. I've noticed that since quitting, I feel much healthier/balanced.

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by Jean » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:07 pm

Online dating makes women lose time and men lose hope.

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by theanimal » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:26 pm

Way of Superior Man is very good. Also enjoyed She Comes First, Models by Mark Manson and 7 Habits

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by frihet » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:30 pm

TopHatFox wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:38 am
@frihet, omg lol, sometimes it seems like just having a conversation with the opposite sex has become something that requires black magic. :P
Ha ha I agree, but sometimes "magic" if it's magic to unleash your inherent potential is what's needed to break through our conditioning. I agree that "Way of the superior man" is a great book, from what I remember, I read it when I was of similar age as you and hanging on PUA forums reading all the theory lol. But all that didn't help me to break through my social anxiety.......I wish I had this instruction then.....

This is a bridge, instead of posing as "the superior man" from theory, to BE the Superior Man from your lived felt experience.

Maybe a bit over the top I agree. It is a reason that these exercises traditionally were kept secret and remember the misuse of power has karmic consequences.

Or as they say in the ghetto. What goes around comes around

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by jacob » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:34 pm

Let me present an outside perspective that in the US realm could potentially/probably qualify as post-feminist once the anglo-sphere gets to that point---I grew up in a culture where this was decades in my past. Rather than approaching this [problem] in terms of a man/woman framework, I propose that it's ultimately better to start with the human/mind behind the IMHO superficial gender and developing a relationship with that [person] and then---if your phenotypes mutually attract---you can eventually develop that into something romantic and/or sexual as well. But that aspect as far as I'm concerned is secondary to the relationship. Most people seem to do it the other way around so if you wanna go that way, I have little advice to give. This also means that you can ignore whatever I have to say wrt dating. I have never dated. I have, however, built and maintained relationships that have lasted for many years and remained stable for previous partners even when romantic and/or sexual dimensions faded.

I don't know my strategy is the best strategy. I'm sure it's not the best for everyone. I think optimal strategy depends on your phenotype, environment, as well as how much effort (deliberate practice) you're willing to put into it.

I propose a two-fold focus which requires developing yourself as a human as well as developing your understanding of other humans. IOW, improving your mind as well as your theory of mind when it comes to others which include potential partners.

Books that would have helped me tremendously if I had read them earlier (caveat: I might not have been ready to understand them yet):
https://www.amazon.com/Please-Understan ... 960695400/
https://www.amazon.com/Please-Understan ... 885705026/
https://www.amazon.com/Evolving-Self-Pr ... 674272307/
https://www.amazon.com/Over-Our-Heads-M ... 674445872/

These aren't quick and easy shortcuts to better dating and relationships. These are life-long projects to self-improvement. I'm working from the presumption that becoming a better human will lead to better relationships. The same holds for putting in effort to understanding other humans and how they differ from you in degree and kind.

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by Mister Imperceptible » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:03 pm

Jean wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:25 am
Anna Karenina by tolstoï is a great book too.
daylen wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:04 pm
Try to think on a different time-scale where the memes you are accustomed to will feel cyclic and terminal.
I have not read any of these newfangled and I am sure quite valuable books being recommended above. Maybe I could profit from them.

I have read a decent amount of literature and philosophy, and I would venture it that there are women (and these women would be the “feely” types you would be interested in) who are more attracted to men who are poetical in speech and outlook. You are a smart fellow, but you are quite wrapped up in today’s Tinderism. You have the others things going for you....if you read some history and literature and sort of deconstructed memes in conversation (retaining wit and charm), some women will go psycho for you. Sure, some other women will think you are strange, but what does that matter? Be unconventional. Mind not the times, but the eternities, as Schopenhauer said.

Dr. Fisker’s advice is perfectly reasonable if you are looking for a monogamous partner. But you asked C40 & 7W5 in your OP, so that’s not the type of woman you’re looking for, is it?

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:38 am

@jacob:

I agree that in terms of general importance inherent temperament/character trumps gender which trumps culture which trumps experience in a young person. Obviously, the older and more experienced you become, the more experience begins to trump culture, gender and temperament/character. Also, hormonal changes throughout life will influence the factor of gender.

Modern sexual dichotomy theory is not about resigning yourself to the cultural role(s) assigned to your gender. It is about learning how to create strong polarity. Ultimately, the most attractive, functional individuals are those who can integrate polarity at a high level, or reverse at will. For instance, somebody who can evince sweet, boyish vulnerability OR a very powerful, assertive manner when appropriate or desirable. IOW, it is a bit like method acting, and it does work because human beings are so impressionable they can be entertained by a play in which the same actor plays all the roles, from ingenue to villain, or a cartoon starring a sponge. So, fake it until you make it will "work" up to a point, but true change will only occur when you are able to access your own biochemical channels through behavioral mechanism inclusive of visualization or imagination.

One of the problems with our culture is that sexually neutral behavior is promoted as means to combat sexism. Pretending like sex doesn't exist and is not a powerful motivator will only shroud the problem or sweep it into a corner from whence it will definitely pop up again. Also, due to our inheritance of ancient brain core, issues intermingling sexuality, aggression, and anxiety need to be openly discussed and untangled. IME, learning how to strike overt poses in sexual context (which should be safe play space with very open communication for mature adults) can be very revelatory.

A simple example would be that the same characteristics, or behaviors associated with strong leadership that would allow a female in the role of platoon commander to successfully inspire troops in her follow, would also be likely to inspire a female in the role of vulnerable ingenue to follow her afternoon coffee date into his car and out for the evening.

I have been working on my ability to evince strong signals of dominance lately, because I think it would be amusing to go out to some night-spot, as a mid 50s female, and see if the mechanisms used by WSP-like 30-something year old men on 20-something year old women would work on 40-something year old men if I use them. Actually, I am thinking just seeing the looks on their faces will be reward enough for learning the technique.

It might also be helpful for young men attempting same practice to know that because/when I am not very naturally inclined or practiced in this manner, my few attempts have devolved into something like unto two brats squabbling.

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by Jin+Guice » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:50 am

@7w5: How have you been trying to exert dominance (examples)? I've been trying to get better at this too, but without degenerating into a utter and complete douche. Do you have any good reading sources which talk about submissive/ dominant personalities, their interaction and how one might seamlessly move between varying degrees of both roles? Are there any fun IRL practices you've discovered/ know to practice/ experiment with doing this?

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:23 pm

@Jin+Guice:

Well, I was in relationship with an old school NYC-scene Dom for most of 2009, and he encouraged me to read and interact on some related forums, so that is where I picked up most of my take on the topic. Of course, this dichotomy does overlap to some extent with the conventional masculine/feminine dichotomy, so it's kind of morphed together in my mind with a lot of other stuff I have read on the topic of sexual dichotomy theory.

Pretty much all I have experimented with is being more verbally dominant. Simplistic way to accomplish this is to focus on issuing straight-forward directives and interrogations. Physical dominance requires assumption of space, exhibition of territorial imperative. The WSPs recommend starting a conversation with a stranger with an assumption, so if I ever get around to actually staying up past my usual bedtime of 9 PM max and going out to some sort of nightspot where attractive 40-something year old men hang out and making my move, my script will go something like:

" 7th inning, huh?....................

(boldly reach over and eat one of his french fries off his plate without asking permission)

...........Is that something you can do for me?"


Semi-related note would be that because interrogation is seen as dominant move, most men hate it when women interview them on first dates. Strong submissive pose is open reception with filter.

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by C40 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:39 pm

(Typed on phone from desert campsite. excuse my writing)

I haven’t read a lot of specific relationship books, and I’m really not a relationship expert, so wouldn’t consider my advice the greatest. But, here are some books I found useful



First off, don’t read books that tell you to blame your problems in love and sex on anyone else. Particularly books sour on women (like the title of that book TheGreatVoid suggested seems to be). Yeah women can be tricky for us or finicky in some ways, but on the whole they are better at relationships and dating than men. And they probably have more to complain about men than vice-versa, so don’t blame them as a whole. (I’m not talking about some kind of ‘white male priveledge’ stuff here, just speaking from experience of knowing a ton of idiotic stuff men do, which actually make things easier for me personally, for example, google the “Craigslist penis effect by Ramit Sethi)

Also, skip any books recommending deception or other dirty tricks (I mean big things like lies or pretending you’re someone you aren’t) They aren’t helpful in the long run. If you follow their advice, You’ll get the shitty women you deserve and it will come back to bite you.

Any good book should be written with the principle that you pursue relationships with women you trust, respect, and admire. And only those. Not just “oh I wanna fuck that girl over there”.

Personally, as an INTJ, when looking for a serious relationship I do well by finding ENFPs or similar (usually really good most aspects of love, sense issues in the relationship well before I do, etc), and then remembering that I need to keep reminding me that I love them, appreciate such and such things, etc... and taking the initiative in ensuing good communication about how the relationship is going, what things they want/enjoy, etc. and heading off potentiak dependency issues of theirs before they bottle them up and get resentful.


——————

Books specifically about Romantic relationships:

- Models (Mark mason(?)). Simple but good. I listened to the podcast so maybe there is more in the book. The book relates to the very beginnings of relationships.


- 5 Love Languages. It’s basic, and some would dismiss it, but it is an easy read and is good. Also, you should read it because so many other people read it and know and share what their love languages are.

- Men are from Mars, women from Venus. Another simple and popular book. I think you can just read the first 10-20 pages at the library and get the point of the whole book.


———————-
books that are not specific relationship books but are very useful and applicable:

- Way of the Superior Man. Maybe this is a relationship book(?)a I read it many years ago and wasn’t actually ready for it, but it’s good, as others have mentioned. I’ve been meaning to read it again

- Please Understand me II.

- You Just Don’t Understand: women and men in conversation.

- How I FOund Freedom in an Unfree World. You probably wouldn’t want to take his actual romantic relationship advice literally. The entire book applies. Lessons include flying your flag to find your people, recognizing when you’re in shit situations and getting out or improving them, and deciding what you personally want and finding the right ways to get it.

[Books on Cunnilingus and such] She Comes FIrst is good, though other books I’ve read on cunnilingus are just as useful and much shorter. I think two are: “Box Lunch: a layperson’s guide to cunillingus” and “ultimate guide to cunnilingus” (second is by “violet blue”)


[Some book(s) on body language.] Not sure which. Can’t remember which one was helpful for me but some have good advice on how to notice (what for men can seem extremely subtle or unnoticeable) positive/open body language from women signaling interest/openness. PUA books probably cover that, but there is more, like how to notice and interpret body language of dates/partners, etc. the book “What every BODY is saying” is good but it’s tailored for like law enforcement interrogations. You’d want to also find one specifically applying to attraction/dating/love.

- Enchiridion (Epictetus). I like that translation by William Irvine that is titled “the art of living”. Main lesson is that others emotions, rejections, etc. are not a problem for you... to focus on your own actions and thoughts being good and useful. And I guess I learn that whether you are in a relationship or not or having sex or not doesn’t matter.

- How to Win Friends and Influence People. (Should be read around age 13-20, or any are for those on autism scale(?), so maybe not needed any more for you)


A couple lessons I learned from PUA books (but don’t actually recommend reading the ones o learned it from:
1- how to recognize and accept a woman’s level of interest in you] I learned about this from some really cheesy thing from a guy that called himself “Doc Love”, but the lesson was quite useful.

2- how to “put your bid in” without rejection being a negative for you. Basically accepting that “I like that girl.. it’s unlikely to work,
for whatever reason, but I might as well try”... I listened about this from some “The art of mackin’ “ guy who was essentially making podcasts before podcasts were an official thing.


Books that are Very interesting and you should totally read:
- Sex At Dawn (Chris Ryan)


Books I haven’t read but sound good:
- Mating in Captivity
- His Needs, Her Needs
- How to make love all night (I think this is a general sex book and someone said it’s really good)
- Sexual Fluidity
- Guide to getting it on
- Nonviolent Communication
- Verbal Judo
- Come as you are



Books relating to polyamory, promiscuity, etc:
- Ethical Slut
- More than Two
(I’ve only read most of the first)

Books to read to help understand the more basic and square end of the scale of female romantic ideals:
- The Notebook (Nicholas sparks)
- 50 Shades of Grey. (Literally the worst book I’ve ever read in entirety)


Cant believe I typed this much on my phone.

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 am

C40 wrote:Personally, as an INTJ, when looking for a serious relationship I do well by finding ENFPs or similar (
Interesting. Sometimes I (eNTP)go for ENFPs and vice-versa, but for me they err a bit on the side of smothering and wishy-washy, although they also sometimes give off sort of a golden boy glow which is very attractive. I usually go for men who are more J and more S (everybody since I am 98% N) than me. I am kind of madonna/whore on the F vs. T, because in order for there to be something resembling a relationship, somebody has to bring the F, but I vary on whether it will be me because I am the girl or him because I am a T.

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Re: C40 & 7W, Relationship Book suggestions?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:06 am

In addition to a lot of the books already recommended:

The Red Queen by Ridley
Survival Of The Prettiest by Etcoff
Do Gentlemen Really Prefer Blondes by Pincott.

They're in the same vein as Sex At Dawn.

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