Polyamory Support Group

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Jin+Guice
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Jin+Guice »

@MI: I hear what you're saying, but I don't find it to be true for me. I've found that getting laid is pretty important to my mental health. I also find chasing skirts and meeting and learning about new people (dating) I wouldn't have likely talked to, to be invigorating. Both of these things enhance my productivity and creativity.

Ideally all dating should contribute more to your life than it takes. A basic requirement for me for a long-term partner is that they are contributing to my life in someway that makes all of the time, effort and vulnerability worthwhile. Discovering and getting to know a person who is worth it is very exciting though. Also, let's be real, a large part of why I wanted to learn to make and play music in the first place was because it was my one interest that I knew women actually found appealing.

Maintaining one failing long-term relationship was the biggest time suck. Part, or perhaps all of this was due to poor design.
Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:13 pm
Even when it becomes clear after 1-3 months that it is doomed, I feel I need to make it last 4-8 months just to get my money’s worth.
Haha, I'm intrigued, what does this mean?

I initially started couples therapy as a last resort instead of breaking up with my gf ~ 1 year ago. The main benefit of therapy was unanticipated. It opened my eyes to a whole different emotional and social realm while also teaching me to set boundaries and negotiate more effectively (mostly by listening to other people, considering their needs and abondonning my pernicious pursuit of "fairness"). It's also good to have a neutral party, who is trained in certain skills, to listen to you work through difficult intra- and inter-personal problems. When I first started, I thought I was better than therapy and was really blindsided by how helpful it was. I ended up putting so much work into the therapized relationship because 1) my (ex)-gf is actually really great and I really enjoy spending time with her, 2) I realized I'd made a lot of mistakes early in the relationship and wanted to see if I could change things to amend the results of these mistakes moving forward (turns out I couldn't or was unable to wait long enough) and 3) I realized that, while I don't want to get married or be sexually exclusive to one person, that having a long-term romantic partner that has gone through real life experiences and knows you extremely well is both very desirable and massively valuable.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

I agree that getting laid is important for mental and physical health, in fact the period during which I was not getting laid was getting to me, and I was bitching about it, it led to someone even creating a “Relationship Derailment Thread”. In the same way we in the evil biopharmaceutical industry need to recoup the R&D costs for all the failed clinical trials by charging big prices for the ones that do make it to market, once I get involved with a woman, even though I know it is not going anywhere I push it to last 6-8 months before things become truly intolerable because I need the sex and I have to recoup all the upfront costs.

What I said before was that if you make more waves as a musician it will get you laid. My first girlfriend noticed me in a high school performance and sent me an invitation to Thanksgiving dessert. I had similar reactions from acting in student films in college or at comedy open mics later on. Women who look down on you now would instead look up at you.

What you experienced in the last year is what you can continue to expect. I’m not saying get married or give up sex. It just seems to me that polyamory is some attempt to square the circle. You used the words “poor design” and this is what it reminds me of.

Take this with a half shaker of salt from a perpetually dissatisfied serial monogamist who may end up like this guy or this guy.

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fiby41
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by fiby41 »

I don't agree with 'getting laid is important for mental and physical health.'
On the mental platform, mental stimulation can be had, other that that of the erotic type. Someone only needs to try different things out until something makes them go 'this is better than sex.'
On the bodily platform, there is a concept called biological clock. There are also nocturnal emissions where the body auto-ejaculates excess fluid in the right amount during sleep to see which one needs to examine their underwear which is easier if they're washing their own clothes.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

I believe the creative process can be better than sex which is why I am suggesting channeling excess energies into such beyond the minimum required to scratch the itch. Rather than poly which seems to set as a goal to be scratched at all times.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Jin+Guice »

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:55 pm
In the same way we in the evil biopharmaceutical industry need to recoup the R&D costs for all the failed clinical trials by charging big prices for the ones that do make it to market, once I get involved with a woman, even though I know it is not going anywhere I push it to last 6-8 months before things become truly intolerable because I need the sex and I have to recoup all the upfront costs.
Hmmm, maybe we are using different styles? I won't go beyond the third date if someone won't sleep with me by then. I'll immediately leave a date if I'm not having a good time. Also, "not going anywhere" is usually what I'm looking for.
Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:55 pm
What I said before was that if you make more waves as a musician it will get you laid. My first girlfriend noticed me in a high school performance and sent me an invitation to Thanksgiving dessert. I had similar reactions from acting in student films in college or at comedy open mics later on. Women who look down on you now would instead look up at you.
Haha, there is such a bias on this forum for demonstrating professional ability and skill to attract women. At least it's brand consistent. I don't disagree that, all else equal, being more professionally successful or able to demonstrate skill will, in general, cause higher quality women to be attracted to you. Most women I encounter are more concerned with if you can just take basic care of yourself and pay your bills. Next up the list is doing one or two (preferably high visibility) things to demonstrate social worth. This is the level of musician I already am. The next step is a giant one, it's being famous (even locally) or well known enough to make you attractive to women before you talk to them. IME, you need to be in at least the top 1% of whatever thing you're maxxxing out to achieve this. I do want to be a better and more creative musician, but I don't think it's going to attract more or much better women for me than it already does. If you're going to focus on this angle, it's better to view living your life as the creative art, which hopefully in turn makes you a better artist.

I think focusing on social and emotional skills are much more important for attracting women than demonstrating skill, especially above a basic ability to take care of yourself and do one or two things better than average.
Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:55 pm
It just seems to me that polyamory is some attempt to square the circle.
Eh, but how? The partners that I like and care about are the ones that take up time. Going on a date usually only robs me of an evening to myself or an evening with another friend. What is the correct way to date and what is the goal?
fiby41 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:28 am
I don't agree with 'getting laid is important for mental and physical health.'
Frankly I feel that it is. I thought I was just some sleazy guy (which, for the record, I am) for wanting to have a bunch of sex and not go long periods of time without. It's important to my physical and mental health. Trust me, I've done the research.

I think that choosing not to have sex is also a viable option. You find out some interesting stuff about yourself when you don't have sex for awhile. If you're in your fucking years, I view this as similar to sleep or food deprivation, but maybe this is offensive or a misunderstanding? Some people (or even the same person at different points in their lives) also just have lower sex drives than others, which is also fine, freeing in a way. The mental and physical drain/ deterioration comes from wanting to be having sex and not.
Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:32 am
I believe the creative process can be better than sex which is why I am suggesting channeling excess energies into such beyond the minimum required to scratch the itch. Rather than poly which seems to set as a goal to be scratched at all times.
I dunno, what if you are creative about having sex or someone you are having sex with inspires creativity? If the goal is to lead an interesting and inspiring life, rich in intellectual, physical, social, emotional and romantic experience and connection, what is the correct amount of time to spend pursuing romance/ physical pleasure?

Alphaville
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Alphaville »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:16 pm
you’re in the awkward position here of having to defend your reality in a support group type situation. not the most optimal, but i guess debate is good to test ideas and clarify positions.

i agree with you that the advice you’re getting here does not apply to you. in my experience, some of the most creative people out there are also the horniest; or maybe they’re just as horny as everyone else but less repressed about it. either way i don’t think getting all bottled up does anybody any good. if the goal is to be a monk or an ascetic, then be a monk or an ascetic; otherwise, it’s besides the point.

either way, i’m glad to hear that you’re pursuing your goals in an ethical and consensual manner with people who share your values.

i’m not poly btw, just a retired serial monogamist, hahaha. i can support/verify/validate the experience that there is no bigger rush in life than barriers falling between two people. and if there’s anything “better than sex” out there in this world, i haven’t experienced it—junkies talk about heroin like it is better than sex, but i’ve never tried it and have *zero* interest in that kind of shit.

yes, there are other kinds of experiences, mental experiences, emotional experiences, intellectual experiences, physical experiences, spiritual experiences, political, social, creative, etc. but they are no substitutes for each other, just like oil is no substitute for vinegar. in antiquity, sex was sacred. these days, i don’t know who is in charge of what’s sacred anymore, but in my view they’re doing it wrong [insert anti-dualist rant here].

i’m happily married these days though, and non-serially monogamous, and while having to renounce new conquests can be hard, it’s a worthy tradeoff for me at this point in my life. and by this i mean—it wasn’t for me before, and it doesn’t have to be that way for other people either. we each have to live our lives, not someone else’s. if i had to endure this overly long quarantine by myself, i’d simply go bananas. good on you for looking after your “maslow hierarchy of needs” (i put it in quotation marks because i’m not fixed on maslow’s version, but sex is a legitimate human need.)

as for the covid stuff, as long as you and your partners assume your own risks without threatening/involving the unwary (like going into public places without masks “because freedumb”) you’re ok by me.

anyway, so sorry about your breakup, but looks like it was for the best. please carry on living your life, and be well.

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

I think you are fine as long as you accept that what you have experienced is what you can continue to experience. “Love is illusion and I don’t want to be tied forever to someone I thought was hot when I was 30” does not change human behavior. I think the polyamorists are trying to convince themselves that what they are doing is revelatory and different from fucking around. Maybe in a few hundred years when “everyone belongs to everyone else” in a Huxleyan sense that might be true, but as far as I can tell you are just fucking around and putting a different label on it. And that’s ok. But it’s just fucking around. I think the reason polyamory is a thing is because people cannot rectify their belief that love is a myth with the idea that everything can be solved by communicating and being honest, including fucking around.

Alphaville
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Alphaville »

i think we have a problem with inconsistent definitions and definitions that may not fit the object. this is a complicated matter after all, unlike algebra.

e.g. see:
Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:31 pm
I think you are fine as long as you accept that what you have experienced is what you can continue to experience. “Love is illusion and I don’t want to be tied forever to someone I thought was hot when I was 30” does not change human behavior.
love and falling in love i see as different things. supposedly the old greeks had a bunch of names for “love” (eros, philia, agápe bla bla bla), but i wasn’t there to verify they did. i just read quotes of quotes.

[eta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love i love wikipedia. not erotically hahaha]

nevertheless, the “falling” i have experienced as just that period of the breaking of the barriers, which can take months, maybe return at critical times, but then after that glorious rush cinderella’s carriage turns back into a pumpkin.

i love the pumpkin lady though, and i have no illusions that it’s a carriage. and it’s hard work to love like this every day and it’s great. and it’s active, not passive/passion. i’m not going to reduce this to algebraic definitions or pour my life on the internet though; i’m just pointing at a boundary between two different lived emotional “states.”
Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:31 pm
I think the polyamorists are trying to convince themselves that what they are doing is revelatory and different from fucking around.
i think fucking is always a revelation, from devoted lovemaking to a casual fling to a difficult-to-achieve hatefuck, and everything in between, so i’d agree with that proposition actually: it is revelatory. the nature of the revelation always changes though: sometimes paradise, sometimes hell, always something else. a bit like what the rastas say about ganja: it reveals you to yourself.
Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:31 pm
Maybe in a few hundred years when “everyone belongs to everyone else” in a Huxleyan sense that might be true,
that’s not going to happen in a general sense, unless maybe at a molly party? the 60s are over. they might return cyclically i suppose, but there are always limitations due to the wide spectrum of human behavior in this area. the paranoid will never join. but there is always an orgy set.
Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:31 pm
but as far as I can tell you are just fucking around and putting a different label on it. And that’s ok. But it’s just fucking around.
we can easily agree on what “around” means, but what “fucking” means to each of us depends on the subjective quality of the thing, no? i’ll concede that “polyamory” is an i’ll-sounding neologism bordering on ridiculous, and i’d choose a less silly word for it, but if people are willing to roam free while respecting each other’s boundaries, who am i to tell them it’s wrong?

fucking around has been what humans do since forever, and it’s deeply entrenched in our dna. forced monogamy is what’s relatively new for us apes. being perhaps the rational solution to a rationing problem as well of preventing many conflicts in spite of our nature, it requires great cognitive effort to maintain (what kahneman and tversky called “system 2”). this is why it quickly goes out of the window given enough alcohol at the professional conference.

the fuckers arounders were here first...

eta, 2: a modern version for those who like “types” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_whe ... ry_of_love

Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

I basically repeated what I said a year ago in that messy chaos should be the expectation when you go in for this type of thing, and that is what J&G got, so as long as that is his expectation he will not be disappointed.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Jin+Guice »

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:40 pm
messy chaos should be the expectation when you go in for this type of thing, and that is what J&G got, so as long as that is his expectation he will not be disappointed.
I agree, but I don't know what I gain from not doing this? Monogamy was equally as messy for me.
Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:31 pm
“Love is illusion and I don’t want to be tied forever to someone I thought was hot when I was 30” does not change human behavior.
I don't think love is an illusion.
Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:31 pm
I think the polyamorists are trying to convince themselves that what they are doing is revelatory and different from fucking around.
Polyamorists, particularly those who are famous for writing about it are often smug/ annoying. If you define "fucking around" as everything that's not monogamy, than I guess it's the same as how I would define polyamory. For me, the two main differences of polyamory are 1) Maintaining long-term intimate romantic relationships while pursuing outside sexual/ romantic relationships (ranging from only one night stands with others to, multiple lifelong partnerships) and 2) escalating relationships emotionally without necessarily following the traditional relationships escalator. In my mind "fucking around" is what those seeking the relationship escalator do in between committed relationships in a period lasting a few days to many years.

For me, polyamory squared the circle of wanting to have a lot of varied sexual experiences and partners and also being somewhat of a romantic. I don't need to divide my life into periods of "fucking around" and periods of committed partnership, I can do both. By questioning the societal assumptions about relationships, I was forced to examine my own assumptions about relationships. I now feel I have some direction about what I want instead of being guided by expectations, fear and a few things I knew I didn't want.

@Alphaville: Thanks for the condolences and the support. I agree that there was a problem of definition, thanks for pointing that out and expounding upon it.

Miss Lonelyhearts
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Miss Lonelyhearts »

Re: color wheel: there is a lot of pragma on this forum!

7Wannabe5
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

The problem with trying to make a list of experiences that are as good as sex is that it is usually pretty instantaneous to think about how you could combine those experiences with sex. Then you just have to put even more things on your bucket list or in your GTD tickle file, and find a co-operative male partner (one who can be guiled into thinking it was his idea) who is not inclined towards being too literal in his interpretation.

This is actually so difficult, it can be easier to just practice polyamory or sleep around hoping to be pleasantly surprised by combinations you didn’t even think of yet.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by classical_Liberal »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:27 pm
The problem with trying to make a list of experiences that are as good as sex is that it is usually pretty instantaneous to think about how you could combine those experiences with sex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S449KdjPKrY
George Costanza
________________

In all seriousness, Polyamory seems to me a combination of all the benefits of having long term supportive relationship(s) with the novelty of new found attraction. In theory it sounds great. I think the biggest obstacles are 1) Cultural acceptance and 2) More people equals more potential for conflict.

The first is self explanatory and requires people like 7WB5 and J+G to talk about it openly to try to push overton windows. The second is like what @suo talked about way back when saying that each new person added to the mix creates exponential increase in complexity. The more people you add into a complex intimate relationships, the harder it is to make sure everyone is getting what they need. It's obviously doable, i just think there needs to be more concerted social effort to keep the relationships stable, on top of the social effort to go against society's norms. IOW, it's a commitment of life energy. Whether it's a good investment depends on the person.
Last edited by classical_Liberal on Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jean
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Jean »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:27 pm
The problem with trying to make a list of experiences that are as good as sex is that it is usually pretty instantaneous to think about how you could combine those experiences with sex.
I don't think i ever do. But i do also enjoy plain potatoes so i might be an outlier.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

TV and sex :x
Food and sex :P , but more in the style of picnic break in the action than what George was attempting :lol: I can still flashback over 30 years to the memory of one of my college beaus grilling me a steak in the middle of the night while I stayed snuggled on his futon underneath the Echo and the Bunnymen poster.

Another plus for polyamory is that it has been my experience that it is more likely that somebody other than me is doing the cooking during the dating phase of any relationship.

ETA: Of course, there is also the negative feedback loop of too many men feeding me delicious food leading to me being too chubby in the belly to feel sexy. So, that is a problem.
Last edited by 7Wannabe5 on Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Jean:

You never think about combining sex with your woods and pretending that you are a wolf?

Alphaville
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Alphaville »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:27 pm
The problem with trying to make a list of experiences that are as good as sex is that it is usually pretty instantaneous to think about how you could combine those experiences with sex. Then you just have to put even more things on your bucket list or in your GTD tickle file [...]
7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:16 pm
You never think about combining sex with your woods and pretending that you are a wolf?
haaaaa haaaa haaa! you’re the best—can i call you? :D

(no people, not 100% serious, just a flirty compliment, sheesh...)

Alphaville
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Alphaville »

Miss Lonelyhearts wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:14 am
Re: color wheel: there is a lot of pragma on this forum!
hahaha, i missed this earlier. yes! could use more ludus :)

7Wannabe5
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

One problem with the practice of polyamory is that you pretty much lose the ability to do something like stream Carrie Underwood videos until you build up enough steam to break up with a guy.

enigmaT120
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by enigmaT120 »

I'll try to keep that in mind.

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