Polyamory Support Group

[7Wannabe5]

@llorona:

Oh, it's my own fault for lapsing into my soft imaginative COTU (center of the universe) chair. I went away for the weekend with The Cowboy, and initiated difficult conversation in which I made clear that I was crafting new dating profile in order to meet men for purposes other than potential 3-some with him. He took it very well, and off-hand mentioned that umm..maybe he still had an open profile on the site I was intending to use. The next day he made out of the blue comment about what a "sweet girl" I was, which I thought was a bit odd. So, I looked at his profile and it was straight-up advert to recast my current role in relationship to him with somebody just like me crossed with somebody much more like an E4 wet-dream Fox News Painted Lady Anchor

Anyways, it's not really his bad, because even though we have been dating for 3 years now, when we met I was romantically involved with a married paramour (The Peacemaker), and still sexually involved with The Permaculture Manager, and The Cowboy was on the double-rebound from recent divorce and being dumped by love-of-his-life for whom he left his marriage. So, we were both happy to fulfill "in the meanwhile" primarily social and recreational companionship role in relationship to each other. I think I just got a bit more confused by the fact that he is also bi-sexual*, so I "forgot" that he never actually described himself as polyamorous. The Peacemaker was my only lover who self-described as poly.

My tattoo would serve to remind me of the one relationship rule I am supposed to remember which is "ONLY take men literally."

OTOH, this experience might serve as a bit of a call-out to Jin+Guice, because he may wish to consider how not being up-front about poly status in any profiles or presentations to other women might look to his GF if she happens upon them. Not everybody is as easy-going as me.

*Another "my bad" would be the fact that I offered up his bi-sexuality as mediating factor in attempt to make dating a conservative Republican acceptable to the more extreme left-wing females in my social circle. Since he also has big brown puppy-dog eyes, it was too easy for me to allow myself to excuse some of his behavior on the basis of "confused."

[Freedom_2018]

@7wb5 - I think if my partner were to gossip about me in the above manner, she would be ex-partner real quick (and likely vice versa).

[7Wannabe5]

@Freedom_2018:

Well, first note would be that if you break up with somebody who is actually much more accepting of your sexuality than you are yourself then where does that leave you?

Second note would be that it's not like I was gossiping all over town. Over the holidays, my sisters and my niece gave me wine (I drink very rarely) and practically put me through an inquisition on the topic of why was I STILL dating somebody who voted for Trump. Two of my sisters and my niece (currently has a boyfriend and a girlfriend, so de facto polyamorous also) are bi-sexual and my other sister lived in the San Francisco area for many years and one of her significant boyfriends later came out, so in my drunken defense of him I went from "Well, he's actually kind of a sweet nerd underneath the behavior associated with the fact that he listens to Limbaugh", to "He really likes to garden and is also into nature conservation." to "Also, he's bi-sexual, so the fact that I am dating him doesn't mean that I am dating somebody who would discriminate against members of my own family....Crap, now you guys made me feel terrible, because I just outed him without his consent."

Then they were like "It's okay. It's okay." and they even made me feel a bit better about the fact that he shopped a headless picture of me in a teddy around the internet in search of a third for MMF without my prior consent.

Anyways, I am still rather confused/ambivalent about the situation. I am considering suggesting that we make an appointment with this counselor:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... r-bisexual

I actually very much want to help him be happy and appropriately partnered, but as Shel Silverstein said, "Some kind of help's the kind of help that helping's all about. But some kind of help is the kind of help we all can do without."

[Jason]

a headless picture of me in a teddy around the internet in search of a third for MMF without my prior consent.

I imagine every member of the Taliban took one hand off their gun for that one.

[7Wannabe5]

Oh, Jason, I am just too old to care anymore.

[liberty]

I think polyamory is a very good thing for minimalists. Finding one partner is of course better than being single, as you save a lot of stuff on housing. Finding 2 or 3 partners is even better, as housing prices decrease even more: If you are a quad/fourple, for example, the housing price is maybe just double of a single person's house, which means you cut the spendings in half. I would love to be in a throuple or fourple, but not easy to find 2 or 3 boyfriends when I can't even find one...

[Bankai]

I think polyamory is a very good thing for minimalists.

I don't know, it sounds like an oxymoron to me. You might be able to decrease expenses if you find multiple partners willing to leave with you under one roof (but this never happens), but minimalism is also about minimising hassle and 'other people's problems'. Having multiple partners, all under one roof sounds like a daily disaster to me.

[Bankai]

he shopped a headless picture of me in a teddy around the internet in search of a third for MMF without my prior consent.

That's brutal. Total lack of respect.

[daylen]

I am with Bankai on this one. There are other ways to attract roommates besides sex.

[7Wannabe5]

@Bankai:

I guess I should maybe re-read "Princess Bitch: The Sassy Guide to Relationships, Power, and Success." Focus on Chapter 2: You Are the Most Important Person in Your Universe, and Chapter 4: Grow Some Balls, Because You're Gonna Need 'em!

[llorona]

@7WB5: Still trying to wrap my head around the dynamic. But I wouldn't be inclined to think kindly of someone who was planning on replacing me, or splashed my headless photo around the internet. At a minimum, seems like communication and transparency are missing.

[7Wannabe5]

@llorona:

Are any of us truly thoroughly transparent? Would we even want to be? It seems to me that it must always come down to being able to deal with your own reactivity vs. responsive behavior. There is no amount of information we can gather that will grant us full security.

OTOH, half the responsibility entering into any sort of contract is enforcement. So, I did straight-forwardly communicate and renegotiate relationship over the weekend. As the result of my input to this conversation, I later received a text that said "I miss you." followed by "My chopped liver." So, obviously, I mostly just keep The Cowboy around for the same reasons Jacob allows Jason to keep posting on this forum.

[llorona]

@7WB5:

Well, no. If humans were 100% transparent all the time, we would have killed each other off a long time ago.

Guess I'm just feeling a little protective and upset on your behalf - not that you need it, because apparently you kicked ass in the renegotiation.

I'm also possibly projecting a a bit because I've recently felt less than valued and respected in some of my interludes. This has led me to clean out the stables back to one stallion.

[7Wannabe5]

This has led me to clean out the stables back to one stallion.

BTDT, except I actually took it right down to zero

Getting respect, if not always easy, is pretty straight-forward; exert initiative, take the lead, enforce your boundaries, and stay on top. Getting the feeling of being valued, or the care you need, if you do choose, allow, or simply find yourself in a position of vulnerability is more difficult. Men are always moving right from one box to another, so if you don't literally/practically share enough context outside of sex, it can be hard to naturally cycle through enough states, or moods, or biochemical generating behaviors together. Simple example being that within the context of a long-term relationship with a live-in partner, it might happen that he will jump right out of bed 3.5 seconds after finishing, exclaiming "F*ck, I forgot to call Jack about the water heater.", but, then, 4 hours later, after the dinner dishes are done, he will cycle back in close with you. Much easier to lose the strand altogether with multiple relationships with men who are not necessarily nearby when or as needed.

OTOH, sometimes a strand or spark of connection will once again suddenly emerge. Why it so frequently happens that people find themselves having sex with an ex. Years of neglect, ordinary marital sadism, final resolve, and all life experiences and commitments engaged in the meanwhile, swept aside in quick scritch-scratch fall into well-worn groove of intimacy.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if you find yourself once again responding to approach by one of these partners. It's very easy to become overwhelmed by practice of polyamory, but it also has a certain draw.

[Jin+Guice]

I went on the first first date I've been on in 7 years with a chick from the internet. I'm really enjoying the shit out of this.

My girlfriend is not enjoying the shit out of this. She is freaking out. I've been exhausted from a rare stint of hard work (9 12+ hour days straight). My nights and mornings have consisted of arguing with her/ consoling her while she screams at me then cries. The whole thing is a little bit surreal because I'm so exhausted. This is the first relationship I've been in after being absolved of jealousy so, consequently, I've never had someone be more jealous than me. It's been mind blowing to watch one of the most confident people I've ever met reduced to a pile of tears and self-loathing. Man, the darkness and contradiction of that southern upbringing is emerging. I've become really well equipped with dealing with my own jealousy but I'm totally unprepared to deal with someone else's directed at me. I've been trying to maintain boundaries and demand respect while also being understanding and empathetic to her feelings, but fuck it's hard tightrope to walk.

Thanks to everyone on this thread who's offered me advice on my foray in to polyamory. The most useful piece of advice (which I've distilled from several different posts) is, know what you want and be kind but firm about getting it. I also picked up some indirect dating tips/ tricks from 7w5 (possibly from another thread). The most helpful have been, be more aggressive/ dominant, be definitive and make concrete plans/ demands, and (for online dating) don't chat excessively.


I've noticed an interesting extension of the Kahnemen/Tversky 2 system (Thinking Fast and Slow) framework, which, for this scenario, is also the Haidt (The Righteous Mind) elephant/ rider framework. I am naturally not very skilled at being social, starting conversations or hitting on women. I've been working on this slowly for about six months now and I've had some real improvement. I'm currently running sound for a small stage at a music festival. Usually my shitty communication skills are a problem, but I'm really slaying the being on top of talking to the artists, finding out what they need and not taking any shit off of them or their tour managers. Props to me. However, once I start getting tired/ hungry/ irritated my social skills take a nose dive. I become bad at small talk with cashiers and homeless people and don't want to think of compliments to give cute girls strolling the streets. It's interesting to have the framework and feel the elephant start to takeover and realize you are powerless to stop it. I guess I shouldn't go on dates and/ or internet flirt with women when I'm fucking exhausted.

[Jin+Guice]

Are any of us truly thoroughly transparent? Would we even want to be? It seems to me that it must always come down to being able to deal with your own reactivity vs. responsive behavior. There is no amount of information we can gather that will grant us full security.

OTOH, half the responsibility entering into any sort of contract is enforcement. So, I did straight-forwardly communicate and renegotiate relationship over the weekend.

I am feeling you on this.

The polyamory books/ people make it sound like if we all just use the right words (most of which are compersion) and communicate effectively and cry on each other just the right amount that everything will be all sunshine and roses. But this is people trying to bang/ love multiple people, so it's probably going to get a bit fucking sloppy. The attitude expressed in polyamory literature turned me off to polyamory for a long time. I like your method of tempering it with hip hop and PUA books (and also books about how to land a husband, maintain a marriage and be a badass bitch).

[7Wannabe5]

The polyamory books/ people make it sound like if we all just use the right words (most of which are compersion) and communicate effectively and cry on each other just the right amount that everything will be all sunshine and roses. But this is people trying to bang/ love multiple people, so it's probably going to get a bit fucking sloppy. The attitude expressed in polyamory literature turned me off to polyamory for a long time. I like your method of tempering it with hip hop and PUA books (and also books about how to land a husband, maintain a marriage and be a badass bitch).

Well, I would like to note that I am certainly not holding my relationship functioning up as a model for anyone. Bear in mind that I found myself in the unusual position of going through phases of Early Serial Monogamy and Dating /Long-term Egalitarian Western Marriage with Children/Divorced/Mid-Life Serial Monogamy and Dating*/Islamic Marriage contract/Divorced/50 years old and once again on the market when I chose to practice polyamory.

I would say that having been in a relationship with a practicing Muslim male who truly believed that "up to 4 wives" was moral practice for him, although he was willing to agree to monogamous contract with me, greatly informed my perspective. Since I knew that a male human could feel/function that way, I was compelled to know whether a female human could feel/function that way. I decided to behave "as if" I was the member of a society that actively promoted 3 partners for each and every adult as means of ensuring care and cohesion.

Going in, I thought the greatest difficulties would be dealing with aggressive jealous behavior on the part of my male partners, or not being able to respect or respond to dominant signaling from more than one man. IOW, if I am self-aware that it turns me on when a man takes the lead, how can I choose to be simultaneously in the "follow" with more than one man in order to maintain my attraction? Male jealousy has been far less of a problem than I posited. I think this is because the trade-off for freedom, either instinctively or through cultural training, seems like more of a good deal to a man. Also, because at my age I am either interacting with older more-experienced-of-many-relationships men or younger men who are unlikely to consider me serious relationship candidate. The second issue has not been terribly evident either. However, this is in some part due to the fact that I am fairly resolute in core solo functioning towards my lifestyle goals, mainly following my own lead. Also, I am veering towards becoming a teensy bit more dominant in my sexual functioning, and that lends some flexibility.

OTOH, after The Cowboy and I renegotiated for very open terms this weekend, I had the experience of over-hearing him on a phone date with another woman, and I did start pinging jealous. What I chose to do to combat this feeling was to literally chant "Freedom, freedom, freedom, ..." to myself. Compersion is the warm, complex opposite feeling to Jealousy, but the longing for Freedom is the more simple opposite of the desire to achieve Security through Control. Since I have had the experience, like your GF, of being the usually confident person driven into thrashing fit of all the negative mental and emotional states associated with jealousy, I KNOW that it NEVER results in anything beneficial. I also know that it is a state that is no more reflective of reality than more positive or secure independent functioning states of being. IOW, it's not the case that it is revealing of any core truth about you, anymore than your moment of snappish irritability when in state of low blood sugar is revealing of core truth. IOW, there is something inherently dishonest about what you are asking of your partner in contract in a moment of extreme jealous behavior.

*ETA: Also relevant would be the fact that during my mid-life phase of serial monogamy/dating, I was in overt contract with S&M Dom who was an expert on the physics/physiology of human wiring, practically engaged (he tried to put a ring on my left hand, but I insisted on putting in on my right hand) to a man who was madly in love with me due in part to the fact that he chose to go off his medication for Bipolar 1 (forever altering my perspective on the emotional state of romantic infatuation or limerence), in love with a conservative African-American man who boot-strapped himself out of the projects, and also the much younger GF of a member of the Silent Generation who was also a bit of a swinger in the 70s.

My point here being that it is not the case that my experience has caused me to discourage my DD27 from entering into traditional Western marriage contract. You see what you see when you see it. And you don't see it by getting drunk and hitting it with the same/different guy every weekend at your neighborhood bar.

[Clarice]

There is no amount of information we can gather that will grant us full security.

Ha-ha! Every INTJ and 5Wannabe8 should get a tattoo like this.

[EdithKeeler]

My girlfriend is not enjoying the shit out of this. She is freaking out. I've been exhausted from a rare stint of hard work (9 12+ hour days straight). My nights and mornings have consisted of arguing with her/ consoling her while she screams at me then cries

This makes me sad for your girlfriend. And to an extent for you, too. Clearly she’s not on board with the poly thing and is probably sort of trying to go along to keep you. Seems to me it would be kinder to her just to break it off and go find someone who’s truly Open to being poly. Easier to start a new poly relationship than to convert a monogamous one when one party’s really not into it. Painful in the short run but kinder in the long run. You know you’re just breaking up very slowly and painfully, right? Just rip off the band aid already. Either that or just screw around behind each others’ backs like everyone else . I’m old fashioned that way. (yes, I’m kidding about that. Sort of).

[Jason]

I've noticed an interesting extension of the Kahnemen/Tversky 2 system (Thinking Fast and Slow) framework, which, for this scenario, is also the Haidt (The Righteous Mind) elephant/ rider framework.

It is important to have a solid academic foundation for making your girlfriend cry.