Polyamory Support Group

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jacob
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by jacob » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:55 am

llorona wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:18 pm
If we took a poll of folks on the ERE forum, I wonder where everyone would land relative to the general population? In other words, does interest in ERE (which is extreme by definition) attract people with a certain attachment style, or is there no correlation?
That is, does the theory or a similar one apply to people's relation[ship] with their job/work? It can feel like that:
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/break ... areer.html

7Wannabe5
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:33 am

@jacob:

Yeah, the end of a long marriage is kind of like the end of a long career, but it does also vary according to how "good" or "successful" it has been for you. The end of my good career as a rare book dealer felt more like what I imagine being widowed after a good marriage would feel. The empty nest syndrome many experience after good long career of active years parenting is also similar. I think many people also feel similar attachments to place, Wendell Berry comes immediately to mind, or religion/ideology. Or not. For instance, it is entirely possible to be a Professional Baptist.

However, I don't know if this has any real correlation with attachment theory, which is a little too Freudian for my taste. It also kind of baffles me, because I test as "secure" even though I have very low level of attachment to my actual mother. However, it could be the case that either my father or the group of Polish grandmothers who cared for me during the day during much of my infancy stood in her stead. OTOH, I do think humans have the tendency to try to recreate familiar situations for themselves, even if familiar varies a good deal from ideal.

I also agree with llorona's take that attachment style can vary from relationship to relationship. It's even possible to be in avoidant/avoidant or anxious/anxious relationships. It's not as bone-deep as even personality type, and skills such as self-comforting or appropriate placement of personal boundaries can be learned. For simple example, repetitive checking behaviors tend towards increasing feelings of anxiety, so checking your phone every 20 minutes to see if that special someone replied is a behavior that will put your more in anxious attachment mode. Important note here being that conventionally proscribed dating/mating behavior has the tendency towards putting the female in the anxious position unless she is very self-aware.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Jin+Guice » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:01 am

@llorona: Polyamory continues to be a never ending wild ride. My girlfriend started sleeping with other dudes for revenge. About a month ago she matched with one of our mutual friends (who is a woman) on tinder. They've been dating for about a month. She proceeded to break every rule she'd insisted upon about 4 minutes after she found someone she liked, which I was initially annoyed by, but also, now there are less rules. She still says her preference is to call the whole thing off and just got back to monogamy.

Other than my girlfriend's adverse reaction, the biggest problem has been the amount of time dating takes up. I already had a pretty time constricted life prior to dating and going on dates is fucking time consuming. Until about a month ago, each date was followed by an hour long debriefing and then an hour long fight with my girlfriend, though this has gotten a lot better recently.

Dating has started to lose it's novelty after a few months. On the whole I'm still really enjoying it, but I think I might go on less dates. I switched all my dating profiles to say that I'm polyamorous, though 2/3 of them don't explicitly say that I'm seeing someone.

Dating is going really well. Online dating works well for me because I'm bad at/ feel weird about hitting on women "in the wild." I still haven't figured out how to tell some cute bartender I ask on a date that I have a girlfriend. Being able to feel them out through text message and determine what they want and what I want from them is very helpful. I really enjoy a terrible date, as long as it's entertaining.

My girlfriend is really into the idea of dating another couple or single female and going to sex parties/ swingers clubs. I'm o.k. with this, but I'm not super into it, so she's been setting up all the dates. So far we've been on 2 dates with other couples which didn't go very well and a few dates with a single woman. We had a 3some with the single woman, so we'll see where that goes. I still haven't made it to the swinger club or the hipster sex party

I'm still seeing someone I met on the very first date I went on back in April. I see her about once a week for what is essentially a booty call, though we usually hang out and get kind of drunk first.

I don't think I can ever go back to being monogamous, though I'm sure I'll go through periods where I don't feel like putting in the time or effort to go on that many dates.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:26 am

jin + guice wrote:I'm still seeing someone I met on the very first date I went on back in April. I see her about once a week for what is essentially a booty call, though we usually hang out and get kind of drunk first.
How do you split the difference between booty call vs. date if your intention is non-monogamy? Accommodations, feelings, or FITB? I would say that any encounter, no matter how brief, with a man who had previously declared his affectionate attachment would not be a booty call. Otherwise, I might draw the line at whether he offers to feed me first, which is either a pretty superficial or deeply primitive divide depending on perspective. However, it seems likely that regular weekly booty call that continued for some length of time would start to feel like something else. I think most players try to vary it up to avoid expectations.

I don't think I have ever called a man to come over to my place just to have sex with me, and that is mostly due to the fact that I am usually too frugal or broke to have my own place, but also due to gender-specific social training.

llorona
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by llorona » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:06 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:26 am


How do you split the difference between booty call vs. date if your intention is non-monogamy? Accommodations, feelings, or FITB? I would say that any encounter, no matter how brief, with a man who had previously declared his affectionate attachment would not be a booty call. Otherwise, I might draw the line at whether he offers to feed me first, which is either a pretty superficial or deeply primitive divide depending on perspective. However, it seems likely that regular weekly booty call that continued for some length of time would start to feel like something else. I think most players try to vary it up to avoid expectations.

I don't think I have ever called a man to come over to my place just to have sex with me, and that is mostly due to the fact that I am usually too frugal or broke to have my own place, but also due to gender-specific social training.
You posed these questions to Jin + Guice but I'm going to answer because this is an interesting topic.

As you may recall, my last "relationship" ended partly because my lover and I were not on the same page about what dating + emotional intimacy + slumber parties + sex meant. My new MO is to listen to what men say about what they're looking for, take them at face value, and structure our interactions accordingly.

If a man is only interested in a FWB arrangements, I tell him to forget the "friends" part. The sole purpose of our interactions is to meet for sex. I will not date him, spend the night, or invest time in talking/texting except to make plans. All we will do is meet for sex and possibly post-coital cuddling and conversation. If I enter into this type of arrangement, it's either because a guy is particularly hot or because he's a Dom/top. I get what I want out of it and vice versa.

For a man seeking poly romance, I take my time getting to know him. We go on dates together and it will be some time before I bed him. I make an investment in sharing details of my life and inner thoughts, learning about him, offering emotional support, communicating about where our relationship stands, and showing willingness to work through issues. (Right now, I only have one partner who fits the bill, although I'm going on a fourth date tomorrow with someone I like very much.)

This may sound cold, but sex is powerful and boundaries exist for a reason. Once burned, twice shy.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:01 am

@llorona:

Thanks for your response.
My new MO is to listen to what men say about what they're looking for, take them at face value, and structure our interactions accordingly.
Yup. My life got a whole lot easier when I adopted "ONLY take men literally" as my core relationship practice. Not to say that I don't often lapse on strict adherence, but when I do it is much easier to retrace my steps, or unknit my knitting, and observe where I exhibited bad form. Simplistic, stereotypical example being something like "Ah, yes, now I see. My error was in interpreting "You are so beautiful." to mean "I will call you sometime this week.""

I am currently reading this brilliant text-book on the topic of information theory which includes a chapter on the topic of how it can be mathematically shown that sexual reproduction will convey much better information about the environment than asexual reproduction, and I was actually thinking about how this could be extended to the realm of sexual/romantic communication. Kind of like you could diagram your relationship with any given man as a binary gate flow-chart, then set it to run as a fast-track animation set to some sort of appropriate selection of pop tracks, along a range such as "Girls Just Want to Have Fun" or "Oops, I Did it Again" or "Single Ladies (Put a Ring on it)" or "Better Dig Two*."

If a man is only interested in a FWB arrangements, I tell him to forget the "friends" part. The sole purpose of our interactions is to meet for sex. I will not date him, spend the night, or invest time in talking/texting except to make plans. All we will do is meet for sex and possibly post-coital cuddling and conversation. If I enter into this type of arrangement, it's either because a guy is particularly hot or because he's a Dom/top. I get what I want out of it and vice versa.
Have you read "Be Honest, You're Not That Into Him Either" by Ian Kerner? It's a good, maybe Wheaton Level 2 response, to Wheaton Level 1 "He's Not That Into You", which is itself comprised of pretty good advice for Wheaton Level 0 majority. Anyways, Kerner, by way of proving his argument that women don't really enjoy casual sex or one-night-stands for the usual-suspect deep reasons related to gender-specific reproductive energy dynamics, challenges his readers to only have casual sex under situations where they give their partner no contact information. IOW, you are kidding yourself about your lack of desire for relationship if you can't meet the terms of this challenge. Therefore, the question I asked myself after reading this book, which is also the first step towards Wheaton Level 3 functioning was "What have been the circumstances on the occasions I have enjoyed casual sex?" and one answer that popped out strongly was "When I was strongly engaged in plans for my own future that were either not relationship related or likely to be relationship hindered." For instance, I was quite happily serial in my serial monogamy the summer I was 22 and planning on transferring to a different university that fall.

Kerner also suggests that there is some sort of deep reason why women are often unable to orgasm on first or only sexual encounter with a male partner. In fact, he puts such emphasis on this factoid, I was almost sent to "I am not a normal female. In primitive times my babies would have starved because I did not exhibit appropriate behavior to attach meat-bringing behavior from father." hell by his argument. I think your standard of "particularly hot or because he's a Dom/top" correlates well with my attempted reconstruction of the many occasions on which the Goddess did indeed gift me with an orgasm even though I was not (or not yet) securely emotionally attached to a contract committed partner.

Anyways, if you can follow the breadcrumbs of my reasoning thus far, the next step for me was a mid-life realization that FWB could in fact work quite well for me, because then I could get "particularly hot" AND "male friend" for the price of one. The "male friend" benefit for me manifesting mostly in the form of practical assistance. For example, the way this might work would be I say yes to sex with some guy who is objectively a 9 to my 6.5 then I suggest/hint that he might like to give me a hand with putting up a book shelf or digging a hole in my garden or if I can borrow his van to move some books. Win-Win! Of course, this only works if you are somebody like me who always has a lot of projects and doesn't have much need for romance.



*I think if I ever really wanted to convert a man from monogamy to polyamory, I would just play this video.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Jin+Guice » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:43 pm

@7w5:

I don't give this much thought. While I really enjoy the non-monogamy and polyamory I still struggle with the culture around it. Most of the polyamory books/ blogs/ discussion paint a rosy/ positive picture of how "polyamourous people" are just different. I feel it's often implied that they are better or more emotionally mature than monogamous people. I think this is partially because it is an attempt to do something that the vast majority of people are very uncomfortable with but, the culture of non-monogamy is a bit self-aggrandizing, imo. People dating and fucking each other is rarely a straight forward pain-free experience, inside or outside of monogamy.

Partially because of this and partially because I am brand new at this whole thing, I haven't found it useful to decide or declare what I'm looking for (in terms of ethical non-monogamy, polyamory, etc...). I thought I just wanted to get laid, but it became clear pretty early on that having totally unattached sex isn't something I'm good at or that is that desirable to me. OTOH, I'm really not looking to pick up multiple girlfriends or have more people depend on me. I guess, right now, what I'm most looking for is either total casual encounters or the more likely scenario of multiple friends with benefits.

It has also been my experience that, much as most men aren't too keen on women making the first physical move, women aren't too keen on letting men make the first, post-physical, emotional moves.

To answer your question directly, I don't strictly do anything to differentiate. If I see a woman more than once I make it clear that I have a girlfriend who I've lived with for several years and try to make it clear that I'm not in any way available for the things you would expect a primary partner to be available for. I am available for the kind of things you might expect a secondary friend to be available for. I try to error on the side of being a little less emotionally available than I would be for a close friend, as I don't want someone I'm sleeping with to come to depend on my for primary emotional support that I won't be able to give.

Jason
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Jason » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:52 pm

Let's see. You have Mr. Play. You have oral sex workshops. You have one who requires an assistant to keep track of his relationships. You have one who says that you can go bowling and watch Netflix (which to this author, is more of an invitation that an actual threesome). You have pleas to stay hydrated. You have reference to a book entitled "The Ethical Slut" which well, forget it. You have one that suspiciously looks like Rick James. You have events called "Dungeons and Drag Queens." You have one woman who has a butt that Serena Williams would say "now that's an ass." It's well, I don't know. A little David Koresh. A little Super Fly. A little Soul Train. A little summer of love. A little Bob, Carol, Ted and Alice. A little studio 54. And a little confusing. Ok, a whole bunch of confusing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/03/styl ... ships.html

fiby41
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by fiby41 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:10 am

Jin+Guice wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:43 pm
l. I think this is partially because it is an attempt to do something that the vast majority of people are very uncomfortable with
That's how humans have been for the largest part of our evolutionary history. Making virtue out of necessity, enforced monogamy is post-agricultural revolution social convention.
Jin+Guice wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:43 pm
People dating and fucking each other is rarely a straight forward pain-free experience, inside or outside of monogamy.
What is sold as monogamy is just one variant of it- serial monogamy. 'Dating' semantically has the implication that you may be 'seeing' other people also. Having options let's one walk out when it gets painful.
Jin+Guice wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:43 pm
Partially because of this and partially because I am brand new at this whole thing, I haven't found it useful to decide or declare what I'm looking for (in terms of ethical non-monogamy, polyamory, etc...).
There is no need to put a label on it to identify with. See How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, Identity Trap.
You don't have to declare it either.
Jin+Guice wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:43 pm
I thought I just wanted to get laid, but it became clear pretty early on that having totally unattached sex isn't something I'm good at or that is that desirable to me.
The male strategy is unlimited access to unlimited intimacy. Case in point, popularity of porn in men.
Jin+Guice wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:43 pm
OTOH, I'm really not looking to pick up multiple girlfriends or have more people depend on me.
Relationships don't have to be work. See Plate Theory.

Jason
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Jason » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:35 am

fiby41 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:10 am
Relationships don't have to be work. See Plate Theory.
"Honey, based on the Stein theory for isotropic cantilever plates, which assumes a transfer displacement field of the form, those pants actually make your ass look flatter."

EdithKeeler
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by EdithKeeler » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:36 pm

I don’t know why I am still reading this thread; living vicariously, I guess.

I was just talking to a friend about the fact that neither of us, between work and home duties, and taking care of pets and elderly parents, that we have zero time for dating and sex. Right now the idea of trying to be in a relationship feels like just One More Thing. Easy to just cross it off the list.

Clarice
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Re: Polyamory Support Group

Post by Clarice » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:20 am

:evil:

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