Abundance Mania

[7Wannabe5]

From "It's Only Slow Food Until You Try to Eat It: Misadventure of a Suburban Hunter Gatherer" by Bill Heavey

On my second or third outing (author is attempting new skill of herring fishing), I was boating fish at a nice clip when abundance mania kicked in. "Abundance mania" is such a useful term that it seems unlikely that I thought it up. Although it's not impossible. I use it to describe the cocktail of neurotransmitters- the brain's proprietary blend of dopamine, norepinephrine, oxytocin and serotonin- that unleash a powerful compulsion to collect more and more of something that has three characteristics:

• It has just come into season;
  It's suddenly everywhere (or seems so); and
  It won't be for long

I had already felt it while catching perch. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I would feel it in numerous picking-and-gathering situations to come. At the moment, it was herring. I once saw an interview with Richard Pryor in which he was asked "How does cocaine make you feel?" He replied "It makes you feel like doing more cocaine." Abundance mania does the same thing.

As an ENTP, I am not a type that is supposed to be frugal. When I happened upon this description, it occurred to me that much of my strategy towards frugality consists of variations on the theme of redirecting tendency towards "abundance mania" through application of knowledge or competence. IOW, since I have very little inherent ability to feel content with "less" or any hard limit ("More, More, More Said the Baby" is my favorite picture book), I seek new sources or unusual perspectives on abundance towards achieving or maintaining frugality. One of the reasons I can't give up being a rare book dealer is the frequency with which I get such a rush while out scouting.

I was wondering if others followed this strategy. I was also wondering how this applies to the psychology of trading and investing in the stock market. In particular, I was thinking about what Jacob said about investing being like hunting. Bill Heavey also offers a description of his first time killing a deer at relatively close range with bow and arrow, and it was strikingly very much like the description of first time hunting offered by Michael Pollan (another man who grew up in suburbs, so unexposed to activity in youth) in terms of complex emotional landscape the activity produced. However, I can't really see how this is like investing in the stock market, except in the sense of having to be patient and wait for your shot. Hunting seems much more exciting and awe inspiring, based on these descriptions.

[IlliniDave]

Interesting stuff. For me investing is more akin to farming. I've always approached it as a long, slow, process of making incremental sacrifices for a payoff at harvest time, which then must be used judiciously until the next harvest (the analogy breaks down in that there won't be another harvest for me--it's a one "season" process). I'm not what you'd call a "trader". Maybe that is more analogous to behavior exploiting the temporary seasonal appearance of a natural resource.

I'm not sure I understand the strategy you are wondering about. If you mean checking impulses that if unchecked would lead to gluttony or hoarding or some other overindulgence, I do that, but I can't claim any special knowledge or competence aside from following my version of common sense. I just opt for what is to me a comfortable level of frugality and, as much as I can, keep it in mind when making decisions.

[7Wannabe5]

@IlliniDave:

I was thinking of a similar analogy; investing is like planting trees or perennial crops. A diversified portfolio is like a polyculture. If your choice of Fuji apple proves a failure, you might take it out and replace with another apple variety, or another species of fruit tree, or maybe even a bed of asparagus, but you are always thinking long-term. So, it seems to me that to the extent that you are concerned with purchase price of stock towards investment, it is only like hunting in a situation where bullets are the premium. Maybe it's more like knowing that it isn't worth buying an apple tree for a price equal to 20 years of bearing @ X bushels/year X expected price per bushel, which simply isn't a situation that comes up very frequently when purchasing nursery stock.

Maybe when you are working within the context of slim margin inherent in a highly efficient market, it is more like setting trap lines in a field tangled with trap lines set by others? This analogy would also account for the tendency towards irrational loss aversion demonstrated by most humans within this context, and the inability to maintain high state of alertness, like a hunter, except when actively trading rather than investing.

If you mean checking impulses that if unchecked would lead to gluttony or hoarding or some other overindulgence, I do that, but I can't claim any special knowledge or competence aside from following my version of common sense.

No, I very much don't mean "checking" impulses. I mean recognizing impulses and redirecting them. For instance, if you have impulse to spend money on candy, you might open a candy store. I was also thinking about how an individual could have a Robinhood app and a Fashion Nova app on their phone, thus rendering the task of directing an extra $200 towards either sort of purchase equally easy. IOW, either purchase could be made impulsively. So, what factors would then influence the decision?

I really enjoyed the book I quoted above, because it is chock full of examples of how having just a bit of arcane skill or knowledge changes your perspective on value in the field. For instance, the author is able to find success in fishing for herring, because it is out of fashion to fish for herring, and just one scant human generation of something being out of fashion is enough to virtually erase common knowledge on how to do it. Another simple example might be if you have a wood-burning stove then you might get a kick of "abundance mania" when you observe that the city tree trimmers are out working, and this kick would not be available to anybody who does not own a wood-burning stove, so you set yourself up for cheap kicks when you bought the stove. So, you* could recognize this sort of possibility, and make frugality more fun for yourself by purposefully gaining the knowledge or simple skills and tools that would set you up for frequently getting these kind of kicks, which would lead to positive feedback loop rather than grim "checking" of impulses.

*I obviously mean me or the universe of yous who are like unto me in desire of manic glee state, not you in particular, here.

[classical_Liberal]

Super interesting concept. Both the idea of abundance mania, and your thoughts on how to use it towards personal advantage.

I was recently at Mardi Gras in NOLA, its amazing how seriously people are after the free goodies parades through out. My GF was enamored with the number of reusable grocery bags that they tossed into the crowd and went nuts trying to get as many as possible. Two hours prior to our arrival she had no idea such an opportunity would even exist, but in the heat of the moment, she was out for blood to get as many as possible. The situation met all the criteria. I would add that in my days of financial sales, there was a definitive high from a "thrill-of-the-kill" when a big sale was closed. Probably similar mechanisms?

If the "high" obtained from abundance mania is an innate human feature (it seems logical from an evolutionary standpoint), then your idea to use it in a way in which the majority is unfamiliar seems excellent from a web-of-goals context. Get the high, get the goodies, profit due to reduced competition. This si going to take some time to figure out how to experiment with this in my personal situation.

[Tyler9000]

It has just come into season;
It's suddenly everywhere (or seems so); and
It won't be for long

While the term "abundance mania" is new to me, the entire profession of retail marketing has been pulling those strings to maximize sales for as long as I can remember. Manufactured scarcity timed with a big advertising push followed by coordinated product drops and the occasional flash discount is SOP to drive customers to wait in insane lines for something.

It's refreshing to see someone using the concept for good, though.

[7Wannabe5]

@classical_Liberal:

Good examples. I am now thinking that maybe there is a similar, but somewhat different, mix of affirmative brain juices attached to hunting big game or another K species (inclusive of big business dealings with competing humans) vs. hunting/gathering r species (herring or Mardi Gras freebies.) My behavior at a book sale was once described as "shark-like" by an amused ex who was more familiar with my bunny-like side.

It's easy to think of more examples directly related to nature. For instance, my FIL bought a manual tool to process black walnuts, so then he was able to make use as much as he could of the abundant fall nobody else wanted. When an individual buys a share of stock, they are actually buying a small piece of a large productive asset, so in that sense it is more like the walnut tool than the walnuts themselves. So, in general, maybe it is likely that there is at least one possibility for abundance mania attached to any given tool/skill set?

@Tyler9000:

True, and there is some overlap between the two Venn diagrams when the marketing push is a true loss leader. However, in that sort of situation the potential for full out abundance mania is usually strictly limited by the small print, as in "Only 3 per customer. While supplies last."


Musing further. Abundance mania usually results in forced savings and/or sharing, because you will quickly accumulate more than you can personally consume/make use of in short order. So, it can also eventually lead to improved security and social relationships. This might operate over a preservable continuum from platinum to dandelion greens.

[Sclass]

I was wondering if others followed this strategy. I was also wondering how this applies to the psychology of trading and investing in the stock market. In particular, I was thinking about what Jacob said about investing being like hunting. Bill Heavey also offers a description of his first time killing a deer at ...

I shared some thoughts in this thread many years ago.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9674&p=161467&hilit ... gy#p161467

I haven’t gone hunting in a few years. Somehow I went nuts hunting several times a week during my first three years of retirement. I got burned out. There are a lot of parallels I like to observe. Depends how you hunt and how you invest I guess.

My investing style often involves taking human capital from others. Human capital that they have accumulated through hard work or industry. Then they slip up and allow me to buy the stored capital for a low price. Usually the slip involves emotion or stupidity. In a way I feel I’m stealing their finite life force in a good trade. In the best scenario they work, save, gamble. I take.

Animals in the wild aren’t going to make it easy to steal their life force. They have spent years gathering up food to build muscle, fur and bone. It isn’t for any old predator to just walk up and take...or else they’d be eliminated from the gene pool. Often while taking a particular animal I actually acknowledge how it made a mistake. Like, it didn’t see me. Or it just lingered too long within range of my hide. Maybe it wasn’t satisfied with one plum from my tree. Or sometimes it’s as subtle as it turns it’s head to offer me a clean shot at the temple just as I kiss my lips together. All mistakes that cost it dearly.

There’s the timing as well. And the preparation that gives you juicy time windows. There’s the ability to predict where the action will be before it happens. The conviction to take the shot or wait for something better.

At the last few hunts I went on I’d refined my scope with a built in laser range finder and a ballistics chart glued to my scope cap. Basically I realized I could gain critical moments by lighting up the game with a laser to get range, then converting range to bullet drop using the tiny printed spreadsheet...all in about two seconds while the poor animal wandered by. The window was about ten seconds if they didn’t linger around so preparation made a big difference.

At that point I realized what I was doing was so premeditated it was kind of sick. I’ve gone back to Trader Joe’s packaged meats for the last three years. I have a big pile of tricked out guns, camouflage, folding chairs and grisly photos of animals bleeding from head wounds. A dubious achievement.

I seem to get the same endorphin shot from other things like rummage sales or long term capital gains nowadays.

[IlliniDave]

7wb5, got what you mean now. Definitely not a strategy I have or would pursue. Thanks for clarifying.

[7Wannabe5]

Animals in the wild aren’t going to make it easy to steal their life force. They have spent years gathering up food to build muscle, fur and bone. It isn’t for any old predator to just walk up and take...or else they’d be eliminated from the gene pool.

An apple makes it easy. Sometimes a human female makes it easy. Of course, in both those situations genetic advantage is achieved rather than eliminated. Follow the gamete.

An r-strategy species makes it easier than a K-strategy species, but there is a circularity here, because the risky or chaotic environment leads to the strategy of many low-investment spawn which then contributes to the ease of access for predator. The most chaotic environments usually are found where destructive activity creates new edge. So, maybe roughly analogous to the early multiplicity of entrants to a new field of business, as in the question "Which crypto-currency or food delivery service app will survive?" which recognizes that the majority will soon find their boundaries pierced and their complexity subsumed.

At that point I realized what I was doing was so premeditated it was kind of sick.

Because you had lost your vulnerability and your amateur status and you had no need. 12 year old Annie Oakley was a crack shot, but she had a widowed mother and a house full of younger siblings to feed, and stereotype to overcome, so she was motivated to keep hunting. There were similarities in the descriptions I read of Pollan's first time hunting ever and Heavey's first time bow-hunting after already having become experienced with a gun. If you wished to return to flow in that context, you would have to increase the challenge to match your competence. Also, the endorphin mix would be altered in any situation that put your own skin at some level of risk. How the deer feels after running to safety.

[7Wannabe5]

Definitely not a strategy I have or would pursue.

Never say never

[IlliniDave]

Never say never

Well, that's true I suppose--always and never are hard to live up to some times. But that way of framing things is foreign to the way my brain works.

[Sclass]

An apple makes it easy. Sometimes a human female makes it easy. Of course, in both those situations genetic advantage is achieved rather than eliminated. Follow the gamete.
.....

you would have to increase the challenge to match your competence. Also, the endorphin mix would be altered in any situation that put your own skin at some level of risk. How the deer feels after running to safety.

Yeah you got that right. And the investment analogy is? “Free money get your free money, fresh from the mint!”

As for skin in the game, I’ve never hunted an animal that could shoot back. I did poach on private lands a few times which made me feel both hunter and hunted. Not fun burying my gear and disguising myself as a Sierra Clubber to sneak out past the law. Wrong kind of endorphin. Yuck.

[7Wannabe5]

I still get a bit nervous before the start of a book sale, even though I have been scouting for many years. Likely this is due to the fact that I am in direct competition with other humans, and there is something semi-illicit feeling about paying .50 for a book you know is worth $50. I chortle to myself as I reach over the head of some kid who is robot scanning every book with a bar code to snatch a 1930s catalogue of jazz recordings.

Another example would be that since I am engaged in improving the soil on my urban permaculture site, somebody else's curbed yard waste is just one season away from becoming black gold for me.

For a female, internet dating can also be a short-term cause of abundance mania, but it quickly becomes overwhelming, and can easily tip into making you feel like prey (in a bad way) , and you can't exactly sock away excess men in the freezer like herring.

Does it ever happen in the efficient market world of investing that you happen upon a buy so good that you would gladly throw any spare penny you had at it?

[Sclass]

Another example would be that since I am engaged in improving the soil on my urban permaculture site, somebody else's curbed yard waste is just one season away from becoming black gold for me.
...
Does it ever happen in the efficient market world of investing that you happen upon a buy so good that you would gladly throw any spare penny you had at it?

I was thinking about your urban garden after dinner last night. I think this is an example of an investment where you offer up the apple and get more back without robbing away another organism’s capital. By teaching others to use your land you build community, food and physical security. The people involved get invested into something to protect. And it comes back in social capital. Pretty cool.

Edit - this reminded me of a really cool story. I had a great grandfather who dug a well in his yard and offered it up to all the strangers. He was a Christian clergy living in a predominantly Muslim ghetto. He left a bucket out and the gate open and the local women secretly used the well because he had dug it many times deeper than theirs and the water was clearer. When his parishioners warned him that the Muslims would poison the well he just laughed it off and said “I don’t think so.” That was so cool. Different kind of investing there.

I’ve never made a stock or commodity trade where I was so confident I’d throw everything at it. The “you can’t lose on this one” mentality has come back to bite a lot of people. Too many things can go wrong. Once I know something really is a sure thing it’s long gone. I guess coming from a long line of hucksters I have “if it’s too good to be true it probably is” stamped all over my DNA. All deals are entered with apprehension.

Junk sales are fun. I think there is something in us that loves the treasure hunt. That’s really awesome to know which dusty old book is worth money. I have piles of books in my mom’s place that I’m just dying to put into boxes and donate to the local library sale. I hope somebody knowledgeable grabs the good ones and gets them to hands that values them.

[Laura Ingalls]

I think abundance mania is definitely real. There is something kind of magical about mushroom hunting and hitting a good spot. All of the sudden all you really see is morels. It is truly intoxicating.

[George the original one]

Animals in the wild aren’t going to make it easy to steal their life force.

Well, sometimes they do here at Thimbleberry Woods...

[7Wannabe5]

@Sclass:

Interesting story. My experience is that Muslims make pretty good neighbors. Highly unlikely that the Muslim kids set fire to the Tiny Library box across the street from my garden. Also, although I did suffer the theft of a shovel I left out in the open, not a soul has messed with my actual produce. Of course, the type of individual most inclined towards theft is also least likely to recognize anything not packaged in plastic as food.

@Laura Ingalls:

Michael Pollan writes about that exact experience in "The Omnivore's Dilemma." How one minute the landscape seems to be empty of any mushrooms, but then suddenly you experience a visual shift and you can spot them everywhere.

Like most people, when I first started gardening, I kept everything in strict rows or blocks, in good part to enable identification. Now that I plant in poly-cultures and allow a lot of seed to stay in place over the winter, gardening has become more like foraging, and I notice how my ability to identify plants varies highly. On the other end of the spectrum, because I did go to the trouble of identifying most of the major species in the near climax woods my BF owns, foraging there is more like just going out to grab a couple ripe tomatoes from the garden. If I could just get tooled up to manufacture toothpaste, I would be primed to experience wintergreen berry abundance mania in that realm. I did plant a secret sure-to-cause-abundance-mania crop in the woods, and made my BF promise me 20% of the profits even if we break-up.

@George the original one:

Yup. I really wish I had taken a photo of the deer I saw grazing in the front yard of an abandoned house neighborhood in Detroit. One of the expressways was shut down for construction for a good chunk of the summer, and they must have crossed over then. The Canada Goose population is also exploding. In the book I quoted at top, the author describes how a true scavenger friend of his simply walks up and chokes city geese to harvest her share.

Hunting and gathering is oddly like focused capitalism, because it wouldn't even be possible to profit if everybody did it, but since hardly anybody does it, you can.