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Controlling costs means I don't throw things away. I buy used, I repair, I make due, I do without, I don't get caught up in appearances, etc.

The net effect, is I'm living a life with old stuff, behind the curve on just about everything. I am easy on my possessions. They rarely break or wear out to the point of replacement. When I decide to get rid of something, often nobody would want it.

Objectively, one could say my quality of life has dropped over the past 10 years because of this. It's hard to buy things degraded to my minimum acceptable state. So I was living richer when I first established myself.

I also locked into choices that are suboptimal, but would be wasteful to undo. My 4 person kitchen table was great for a 1 bedroom apartment. Moving into a townhouse, we stuck the leaf in the table and called it done. For 10 years. Our dining room would hold an 8 person table.

My car... It's fifteen years old now. Low to the ground, rusty, worn shocks, mediocre night visibility, limited hauling capacity, etc. Not at all what I'd buy today. But we got a deal in 2008 and it's still running, so I'm not replacing it. The insurance is so cheap.

This all happened so gradually. The individual items don't bother me and life feels normal. Stepping back and looking at things objectively though, I pretty much don't own or use nice things. A lot of people would have a real problem with my day to day standard. I'm not intending to change it, but there is definitely a trade off.

Is it a downside? I tend to mentally high five myself when I notice how far behind the times I am. Don't know whatever the latest technological fad is until a few years later? Good job me, not spending my attention on things I don't care for. I think of the Left Hand of Darkness and how in their religion it is a compliment to remark on one's ignorance. That can be taken too far, but hardly if it is a just general rule for the noise in society.

On the upside, you should eventually come to have well made, durable, classic things. In Fiskerian terms: Day Twentying.

I love having old shit! It's easy to replace and I rarely get upset if someone dings my car, I might misplace an item, etc.

It also doubles as stealth wealth. People just assume you're frugal by necessity.

Since we cancelled streaming, we've become DVD dependent. The unit was always there, but we weren't really using it. Now that we are, we have come to realize that its not functioning well and it will need to be replaced. So our first few months of saving on streaming is negated by a capital cost. I hate the idea buying a piece of technology, but there is no way around it. To put into your terms of trading, its worthwhile.

In context of thread title, with such low trading costs these days, it's a share of stock I would prefer to own. And there's nothing better than owning old stock.

Yeah, that's why a very high proportion of the few items I own were purchased for me by much more affluent, slightly less frugal boyfriends. Makes them look bad to be seen in public with me when I get too shabby. Also appeals to their "rescuer" drive, as in "When I met you, you were wearing a worn-out bathing suit instead of underwear, and sleeping on a pile of thrift store comforters instead of a bed." Whatever...

I wouldn't say there is a major downside for any one individual item. More like an accepted compromise, erring on the side of minimizing consumption.

The computer desk in my living room was pulled from the trash at our apartment 12 years ago, for instance. It's a $100 desk new, basically a glorified table, but will never fall. We extend the capacity with a stereo cabinet from my wife's childhood bedroom. I'd date it to the late 70's.

In aggregate, I wonder about the impact of all those small compromises. If you need to make a change in life, you don't try harder, you remove other drains on your will power and time. Maybe the collective set of compromises acts as a sink, making me less flexible or resilient in other ways. That is a possible downside.

Certainly it's all readily affordable to replace, but the waste would trouble me. I could even get a hot tub. However, it'd be in direct conflict with the values I've established over decades. My bias is that it's all consumer BS and I shouldn't waste energy

No question it is stealth wealth. My wife's family is confident we are barely getting by. I'm happy to create that impression. I think they'd have a hard time with the reality.

I do wonder about the gradual adaptation to a "lowered" quality of life. Sure, the rusted snow shovel my parents had as an extra is good enough. Usually our townhome association takes care of it anyway. But maybe that's also one more thing not quite right, which in sum, is bad. The adage that you don't realize how much hitting your head on the wall hurts, until you stop doing it.

@7wannabe5, certainly you and others on this forum take it even further than I have.

I see streaming vs. DVDs as a lifestyle choice, but contending with the broken player is an example of things getting old. I might try grabbing one at Goodwill, even though I could easily order from Amazon.

My wife's reaction to Jean's video of his place got me thinking about this. We can attribute that to Wheaton levels, but I'd also objectively say that heat and a flush toilet are nice to have.

Especially as resources are available, I'm wondering about that line.

Jason wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:04 pm

Since we cancelled streaming, we've become DVD dependent

We never became streaming-dependent (or dependent on cable/satellite TV). On the other hand, our 18-year-old 300-disk DVD changers are breaking down and technology has ruled them antiques with no modern equivalent except streaming. One can rip the DVDs to a NAS, but that ripping does not preserve the DVD structure, is time-consuming for large collections like ours, and is totally illegal compared to ripping CDs.

Streaming doesn't suit our current locale, either. Satellite internet is generally fast enough, but the data caps would quickly be blown away by a few hours of video.

Anyway, it feels weird to go backwards technically to a single-disk player, so we keep plugging away with the one that still works.

Maybe the collective set of compromises acts as a sink, making me less flexible or resilient in other ways. That is a possible downside.

Good point. Two thoughts.

The first would be that all of us have to recognize that until the day CRISPR technology installs chloroplasts into our cells, we are consumers. In order to survive and grow, we have to consume complexity and create waste. Likely this is as true for our lifestyles as our bodies. Being thoughtful about quality of inputs is important.

Second thought would be that giving thumb to median social expectation should not be confused with denying your own aesthetic. I would hazard to guess that denying one's own aesthetic in environment could eventually have effect on creativity or maybe even ability to accept vulnerability in self and others.

The zero-waste community seems to have no problem using money to churn stuff as long as it doesn't enter the waste-stream from their home. For example, donating clothes back to the thrift store in order to replace it with new-used clothes or selling old stuff online to buy new stuff and airmailining it despite the CO2 emissions.

I lean close to the OP in terms of not wanting to waste ... but I'm also too lazy to put in the effort of replacing anything that is otherwise good enough. To take the clothes example ... Sure it would be nice to have a fancier wardrobe, but when it comes down to it, I just don't care enough to spend the mental energy putting outfits together. Ditto matching furniture styles. Or upgrading stuff. I have the opposite personality when it comes to stuff than those who buy "This Old House" magazines. Don't fix it if it isn't broken.

Here there's a self-imposed "trading" cost that consumers don't pay because they either throw the old stuff out or stuff it into boxes in the garage. If there's anything that bothers me about my "don't waste stuff or energy" philosophy, it's that realizing the cost of taking responsibility for my stuff over its life-cycle means that I'm often reluctant to acquire new stuff because I know what a drag it is to get rid of it again comparably speaking. This definitely reduces flexibility... at least in the consumer sense. On the flip-side I'm much better at finding workarounds that someone who is used to replacing and rebuying.

Scott 2 wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:32 pm

My wife's reaction to Jean's video of his place got me thinking about this. We can attribute that to Wheaton levels, but I'd also objectively say that heat and a flush toilet are nice to have.

My toilet do flush and my place is insulated and easy to heat.

I used to like the latest and greatest, at least as far as technology was concerned such as my computer, consoles, TV or phone.

I've gotten to the point where I just don't care anymore though and would prefer to just hold on to my things longer. This of course is getting harder for some things such as smartphones which just aren't built to last that well. My current TV is 8 years old though and can probably go for a few more years. Not planning on replacing it until it dies.

As for non-technological items I never had the urge to upgrade in the first place.

All my stuff is pretty old, too. But I like stuff with a provinance. My stuff all has a story: “oh this table? The very first piece of furniture I bought when I graduated. I remember beings appalled by the $300 price tag, but it’s held up well for thirty years.”

I really don’t give two shits what people think about me or my stuff. If I like it, I keep it. If it’s still useful and I don’t hate it, I keep it. If I hate it, I give it away.

My mom really hates my house, and it is small.... and old! but I’ve gotten used to it and I’m mostly over wanting something bigger and newer. She said the other day: “I don’t know how you cook in that kitchen.” My response: “you liked thanksgiving dinner, right? Were we missing anything?” “It was great,” she admitted.

Ok.

Augustus wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:05 pm

That mindset could get out of hand of course, you could start thinking you'd want to buy everything, which is what the typical consumer ends up doing. I think I've got that handled though, I enjoy free time more than anything else. If I had to work say a year for the hot tub, it would no longer meet my criteria for an acceptable trade. If I had to work only a day for one I'd probably buy one tomorrow.

I made a hot tub in the stock market today. But I might lose three or four tomorrow.

Augustus wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:05 pm

It also of course needs to be done after the primary goal is accomplished and I hit my number, because I don't want to delay that anymore than I already am.

Buy the hot tub now and work a couple extra months at the end to make up the difference, or wait until the end, then work a couple of months to buy the hot tub. Either way, you still work a couple of extra months, but the first way you miss out on enjoying the hot tub for the entire accumulation phase.

If I wanted a hot tub, I'd buy it now and start enjoying it immediately.

The lack of a house does pose a problem. Sometimes anticipating a thing can be more enjoyable than possessing the thing. Either way, as long as you enjoy it.

I appreciate other people's perspective. I can't say I have a personal aesthetic or a desire to protect the environment. Laziness is definitely a factor. There's also a fear of being taken advantage of, throwing away my life energy. I think "I already have a desk, nobody is suckering me into paying for another." Sometimes, I'm missing out because of it. I know I put off upgrading to a smart phone for way too long. Yet, I'm putting off the replacement for the same reasons.

My wife and I went to a neighbor's real estate open house. Their layout matched ours, but the interior was very different. One of my reactions was - "oh, I'm not living like this.." Pinpointing the individual upgrades would be tough, but there was an overall feel of luxury to the home. I think I'd be numb to it after a few days, but maybe I'm wrong and ignorant to what life could be.


Jean - I see now that the snow on your beard does melt while you are inside. That is good. I do not think the way your heat and toilet work match my wife's expectations. Heck, I enjoy sitting to use the bathroom. I do admire your frugality, even if I am not hearty enough to live it.


OTCW's point is good. Augustus definitely needs to get his hot tub experience ASAP I found an article on financial samurai, they add up fast:

https://www.financialsamurai.com/hot-tu ... a-hot-tub/

For what it's worth, I was able to get my hot tub fix at the local gym. It's not private, but the price is right.

Sitting when pooping is bad for your rectum and anus. There is less matter to whipe when squatting. Many people make a hot tub by putting a tub outsider and making a fire under it. That's fun but you Can find a wood water boiller for more comfort.