Thoughts on Plastic Surgery?

[7Wannabe5]

Also, I think a lot of bad aesthetic procedures may be due to the personality type of your typical surgeon. I lucked out and just happened to get one who made me do an affirmation over a warm plastic heart with him before the surgery. He was also very good-looking himself. I think people worry too much about what might go wrong for technical reasons and too little about what might go wrong because surgeon has no sense of aesthetic.

[Campitor]

THF is going to THF regardless of the advice he seeks which seems more like fishing for validation than seeking genuine feedback. Or perhaps he thinks aloud by posting on these forums and our feedback and its corresponding elicited cognitive dissonance helps consolidate his opinion.

But what the hell...here's one more opinion tossed in. Unless you're correcting for some elephant man type of disfigurement, any plastic surgery done is for naught. Women want to feel listened to. They want to know that their ideas, personality, and opinions have weight and respect. And they want someone who can make them laugh and knows how to have fun in a way that she enjoys. They want a man who is confident and knows how to take care of business regardless of his net worth.

A man who can accomplish the aforementioned and learn how to keep his mouth shut when it matters, will have no shortage of women to date. And here's the hard part - you can't fake it. The smart women will see past any tomfoolery and the women who don't, you will not respect or date unless you're shallow.

[iopsi]

Women want to feel listened to. They want to know that their ideas, personality, and opinions have weight and respect.

A man who can accomplish the aforementioned and learn how to keep his mouth shut when it matters, will have no shortage of women to date. And here's the hard part - you can't fake it.

I guess this explains why my good-looking friend constantly has girls coming to him, messaging him, while also having a gf (ofc he cheats on her) and being a soft misogynist (doesn't take women and their opinion seriously, also lies to them a lot)...

I'm also against getting plastic surgery but in my experience the idea that women don't care about looks is patently false. Talking about young girls in their 20s btw.

[Campitor]

I'm also against getting plastic surgery but in my experience the idea that women don't care about looks is patently false. Talking about young girls in their 20s btw.

Women care about looks to a certain degree; this requirement is on a laffer curve because it's affected by multivariate factors. Getting surgery but having a shallow personality will only get you so far. Being moderately good looking and fit is good enough but nothing can compensate for a shallow personality unless you're dating shallow women. A moderately good looking guy can get many dates if they have a sincere personality that makes a woman feel special AND they aren't afraid of being vulnerable.

[iopsi]

@Augustus

I don't care about having the 'impressive image' (i don't follow fashion and i don't even own a car) and would never get engaged with the type of girl that cares too much about that stuff (tho i wouldn't mind getting some action with them ). A girl like that would be totally incompatible with my plans.
I was just stating what i'm seeing "on the field", which is that the canonical good looking, fashion-following guy, usually gets more (way more) girls than the less attractive guy.

@Campitor

Well i can partially agree with that. For getting a gf you definitely need to be vulnerable and a genuine person overall. Tho you still need to pass the looks test first in general.

If you want to f*ck around as much as possible, getting surgery might make sense (but apparently THF is a 8/10 so it's completely unnecessary in his case).

[theanimal]

THF- I recall you mentioning you are pretty light and skinny (140-150 lbs ?). You would benefit far, far far more from hitting the weights hard and putting on some serious muscle if you are looking to change your appearance for the better. Do NOT get plastic surgery. For all the reasons listed above and all those yet to be listed.

[EdithKeeler]

I really don't understand the issue here. Simple numbers are in THF's favor--there are more women in the US than men, period. In your age group, there are more women than men. So ya got that goin' for ya.

You're college educated, and you tell us you're an 8--we'll just have to take your word on that. But assuming you're above average in the looks department, you're better than more than 50% of the males you're competing against--again, a positive.

You're clearly smart and articulate--that's again a positive. You've beaten more than 50% right there.

Frankly, from your posts on this forum (the only way i have to judge), you do seem a bit wrapped up in yourself, but also care a lot what other people think, and if you're "fitting in with the norm." That can be a negative to women... but then again, I'm not sure that you're not giving the opposite sex the appropriate attention and affection. And it's not unusual for someone your age--you're figuring things out.

Women like men who are confident and know themselves, who they are, where they're going. Again, I don't have any way of judging this, other than your posts on this forum, but I wouldn't say that describes you. You don't appear to quite know what you want and where you want to go--you seem to flit from one thing to another. And that's OK--most young people have a period where they do this. But if you're looking for an actual mate--someone to go thru at least a good portion of your life with--she's probably not going to jump on the train unless she has a pretty good idea of where it's going, if that makes sense, and it's someplace that she, too, is interested in going.

There's a piece that always makes me smile when I think about it. It ran on NPR a few years ago, and it's the Prologue from an episode of "this American Life," where the guy talks about the mathematics of finding a mate and applies a version of the Drake Equation to the search.
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/486/valentines-day It's only 6 minutes, and worth a listen. The conclusion is, of course, finding a mate is sort of impossible but it happens all the time, because that list of "must haves" sort of falls away when you meet that right person.

[jacob]

I'm not really convinced that the early 20somethings asking for advice are looking for a long term partner as much as simple (shallow?) hook-ups. More likely they're frustrated by the fact that the cool surfer dude in the leather jacket seems to get more action than the junior analyst fresh out of college.

What is hard to appreciate at that age (for the average representative of both sexes) is that the former has already maxed out their potential whereas the latter is just getting started. This will become apparent 5-10 years later when the odds flip in favor of the latter while the former will start talking about how great high school was. However, telling that to a younger person might fall on deaf ears. Understandably so when it's a reality yet to be experienced.

Also, the irony that they feel invisible to the opposite sex because of their looks while at the same time pursuing the opposite sex mainly based on looks does not escape me.

[EdithKeeler]

I'm not really convinced that the early 20somethings asking for advice are looking for a long term partner as much as simple (shallow?) hook-ups.

I agree... but I also think that there's some evolutionary biology involved here somewhere. 7WB3 can probably address more articulately than I can, but fundamentally, guys in their 20's and 30's are hardwired to want to spread as much sperm as possible. Women in their 20's and 30's are hardwired to hook up with a mate to father their children and who will bring in meat to feed the family.

Now of course, we have brains, and we certainly can overcome that with our intellects... but deep down, I think there's something to it. I speak as a woman who had her share of that kind of thing when I was young, and if a potential hook-up didn't check some evolutionary boxes, as much as I might have wanted to just have a nice orgasm with a friendly fellow, if he didn't check some boxes for me, it wasn't going to happen. For example, I never found men smaller than I was attractive. I'm 5'10, and any man significantly shorter than me wasn't going to make the cut. He had to smell right. Not necessarily like cologne or whatever, but... pheromones, I guess. I'm certain I rejected perfectly decent guys for slightly weird breath or just smelling strange (to me. Another woman may have found them perfectly acceptable). A man would have to pay attention to me in a certain way, be able to have a conversation with me that at least suggested that we might be able to have a conversation in the future. I might have gone home with a surfer dude or two in my time... but for the most part, even for a quick hook up, there had to be some kind of suggestion that the guy had a future or some prospects (ie, provider).

I'm NOT saying all of this was conscious, especially at the time, but I do think some of these factors are at work even for casual hook ups.

Also, the irony that they feel invisible to the opposite sex because of their looks while at the same time pursuing the opposite sex mainly based on looks does not escape me.

Uh, yeah. Me, neither....

[TopHatFox]

THF is going to THF regardless of the advice he seeks which seems more like fishing for validation than seeking genuine feedback. Or perhaps he thinks aloud by posting on these forums and our feedback and its corresponding elicited cognitive dissonance helps consolidate his opinion.

Yes, I provide the raw cognitive matter and you all refine it. I then run the refined matter by mentors and use the final idea irl. Not that I do this for everything like I used to a few years ago, but for big stuff it seems prudent. No man is an island, or at least I don't want to be.

lol, where did you guys get an 8? I believe 8's are only for men above 6' and with voluminous muscles, not that that's a problem since height is less of a consideration if the girl is shorter. But maybe that's just the kind of dribble that people on toxic internet forums spew (r/Okcupid I'm looking at you when I used to do online dating).

I now have straight teeth, muscles with low bf (130 lb), clear skin, 5' 9", smart casual attire, and white. So I'd say solid 7--bf material--is more accurate. If I can gain 10-20 lb of muscle that would be a good goal; I'll see what I can do. A meal plan would help with this goal since grad school and a full-time job are already a lot.

If compared to your average overweight or obese man, then I win in that regard. But I think appearance is like GPA, you just want to be high enough to be in the running with the women you're seeking, and then display the qualities they (and you obviously) value: vulnerability, compassion, goals, affection, financial stability, a home, etc. Increasing exposure also helps, like going to events where the kind of ppl you want are. Health and wellness events have been amazing for that. Honestly, it's just difficult reaching people--and especially following up with people-- in general nowadays with how distracting smart phones are, but what are we gonna do, not try?

Agreed that moving west would solve most of my female problems. Truth is though, I'm kinda scared of moving out from the free rent and middle class job with free access to education I have going on rn. Remember what happened in NY? Perhaps when I reach 100K or 150K in a year or two and have a Masters I'll feel more comfortable taking the risk of moving across the country once more.

To be clear here, I'm out for a LTR, no longer interested in the vacuous hook up scene. Never really liked my nose though (came from my dad along with the now-dealt-with overbite, thanks dad). It's not bad, but could be a littler smaller and more defined I think, so maybe I'll go to a consultation and weight the risks with the benefits or something. Having the functional orthognathic surgery made me realize that surgery recovery isn't that horrible and has many benefits, as long as it's planned well and done by a caring and experienced surgeon. I'll run it by a therapist or something while I'm at it.

[Mister Imperceptible]

Remember what happened in NY?

Come back to the Northeast, we have plenty of mental illness to go around.

[prognastat]

No offense intended and different people have different tastes, but I would say 5'9" and 130 on a guy is just skinny, not muscular in the slightest. Still beats being overweight of course, but I would probably be aiming for at least 150 and preferably 160 without putting on extra fat.

That'll do a lot more for you than a nose job probably will. A lot more work an time involved of course.

[slowtraveler]

Very skinny. Getting strong (2X your bodyweight) on low volume 2-3 sets of 5-8 reps after warming up with squats, deadlifts, benches, and rows will do more than the surgery. Don't sweat and deadlift on the same day.

[TopHatFox]

For some reason, even at 130 I appear muscular, think Express model as opposed to body builder. That’s said, ya’ll are right - I’m aiming for 140 or ideally 150. Couldn’t exactly eat with my jaw being broken. I think 160 is the max I can get genetically. I suppose the benefit of eating more might be more energy, and that would be good.

I’ll see if I can put up pictures of meals to eat to get to 2.5k calories/week on my vision board to keep up such a weight gain plan. Like you all said though, a lot more work and time than just eating healthfully and exercising. Not to mention it’s the kinda thing you need to upkeep permanently. ‘kay, read my journal after hiateous deux.

[daylen]

Cool people do calisthenics, bowhunting, and octopus wrestling.

[Loner]

Women are like men.

They like a partner that is confident, looks good, smells good, is smart, will make them dream, listens and finds them smart, etc. If you don't have one of those characteristics, you can compensate with another. Many womanizers were ugly as hell. Serge Gainsbourg looked like a frog and apparently smelled horrible, but he knew how to talk, so he had relationships with the most beautiful women of his time. Arnold Schwarzenegger, the epitome of the muscle-man, cheated on his wife with his, let us say, modest looking maid. She must've had something going for her. Madonna, far from running after old successful men, is going out and hooking up with young dancers 1/3 her age. All this to say the typical model (women like money and success, women like hot girls) that comes back often, here, gets it kind of wrong, and sounds like the kind of attitude that would be quite repulsive (even if unstated) to a women (or a men), because people can smell insecurity.

Seduction is much, much more than looks (Robert Greene 's book "Seduction" is a good one). Looks do count, but not as much as one would think. Thus, surgery probably won't work (much), and if it does, it's unlikely to attract what you want (for LTR).

All this to say, if you want to be more attractive to women (either for flings or LTR), I think it's a better investment to improve yourself in other areas, like for instance how to interact with women (but really, people in general). Note, I don't say this because I think you're lacking in that area, but just because I think that's usually where the payoff is biggest. It doesn't have to be gimmicky: there are many ways to be naturally charming, and introverts can be just as charming (mysterious, intellectual, etc.). But if you're trying to compete for women in bars, you are like a football player trying to compete in a league of badminton. Wrong game.

Know yourself, know your vision for life, and you'll need to come back to this forum to ask "how to decline dates politely".

[Paula]

The spectrum of self/other orientation runs from self-centered at one end to other-centered at the other end. Those with successful relationships fall in the healthy middle ground. An interest in plastic surgery at a young age is indicative of a strong self-orientation which makes relationships difficult.

[Cheepnis]

This will become apparent 5-10 years later when the odds flip in favor of the latter while the former will start talking about how great high school was.

Bit of an aside for the thread, but I've got way too many coworkers in their 40's who are way too obsessed with high school. It's not a little reminiscing here or there, it's full on romanticizing. I'm not sure exactly what leads to this, but it seems to me that it'd be pretty upsetting if I felt like life peaked so long ago.

In my experience life has only gotten better as I get older. And I've got a good 30-35 years left before biological factors might start to seriously infringe. If the current trend persists I can't wait to be 40, haha.

[suomalainen]

Come back to the Northeast, we have plenty of mental illness to go around.

lol. +1