Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Simple living, extreme early retirement, being wealthy, ...
ThisDinosaur
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by ThisDinosaur »

+1 Campitor
Sounds cold AF when you put it that way, but the bottom line is that [your] resources are finite. And you have to choose between paying for your own non-working years or your parents'.

No one is entitled to decades of labor-free leisure before dying. We only think otherwise because we live in unusually wealthy times.

OTOH, your parents are at a disadvantage. They had no ERE role models. Where would they have found them if there were any? I wouldn't have figured out ERE or FIRE without human examples from the internet. Everyone I'd ever heard of IRL worked to live and spent their entire paycheck. Investing was for gamblers & geniuses. Savings were for short term goals only.

My own pragmatic plan, not applicable to everyone, is to let my parents work until they cant. I'll help more financially when I have to, which will set an example for my own children to follow. [In case I need them as a back up plan.]

Also, its worth noting that taking responsibilities away from your parents is likely to hasten their decline. The less [elderly] people routinely do for themselves, the less they're able to do. Capabilities atrophy with disuse.

hojo-e
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by hojo-e »

TopHatFox wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:58 am
Naturally, I tend to take control of everything and put it on a spreadsheet, so I have a tendency to overstep in the name of financial solvency. >:D
Each time you overstep and take control today you are sending them a message that you will do so in the future. Another way to tackle the problem would be to find examples of friends or family who didn't plan for retirement. Rather than taking control and providing answers, try asking questions. How are they different from the neighbor's parents who didn't save enough? How do they see their life at 80? Where will the money come from to pay for food, housing, medical expenses? How much will social security provide?
TopHatFox wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:58 am
Selfless in the sense that my parents would like to travel/not worry about money when they're in their 70's.
Does that seem like a reasonable expectation considering their current financial situation?

prognastat
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by prognastat »

I know is some eastern cultures and south American cultures it can be seen as a duty to take care of your parents no matter what or as something that is your responsibility due to what was given to you growing up, however morally/ethically this isn't the case.

You didn't choose to be conceived nor agreed to this arrangement. Your parents have an obligation towards you as they chose to have you. In this same fashion you have an obligation to your kids in turn.

Now of course I don't say this as a do nothing and let them starve or anything like that, but I also would say that parents are mostly responsible for their own situation and anything you do to help them isn't a duty, but rather a gift.

daylen
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by daylen »

I tend towards agreement with the above, but one-sided threads are quite boring. Here is my attempt at balance.

As @prognastat mentioned, other cultures may not question the obligation to take care of parents until death. In such cultures, the value of loyalty is superior to fairness. The difference seems to be that fairness requires a contract or agreement between the involved parties, and loyalty does not require agreement but instead promotes a relational continuity; the former makes the assumption that such parties are capable of judging their own values, and the latter assumes that such parties would benefit from not making such judgments in favor of strengthening existing relationships.

There is reason to believe that if @fox had been born and raised in a culture that valued loyalty over fairness in such a situation, then he would not give second thought to helping his parents and may even be happier for it (or suffer less because of it). Hence, the question may be of such significance that @fox might opt to ignore reason and pursue this financial relationship until the end. After all, his parents chose to provide a nourishing environment for him (I assume), and they may not have consciously made the decision to conceive him. Perhaps such a demonstration of loyalty will pay-off in a more rational way when one day @fox meets a significant other from another culture that judges him based on this.

TLDR: An argument for moral relativism and the subordination of reason.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I am wondering why nobody has noted the fact that THF is currently being financially supported by his parents who are in so much worse shape than him?

TopHatFox
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by TopHatFox »

yeah, that is a good point. I have a free place to stay and can use their cars. To be fair, they probably wouldn’t rent the room I’m staying in downstairs, nor the tiny I’m building outback, and I provide value in terms of financial planning, re-organizing the house, finding tenants, finding free counselors/lawyers/career advisors/financial advisers for the fam through work, etc.

The law of equivalent exchange? I like the idea of progressing as a unit rather than as lonely ass individuals. Granted, I will not tie my finances with anyone else’s in terms of joint accounts. I can also leave whenever I want to.

Campitor
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by Campitor »

I was financially independent from my parents at a very young age and had my own apartment (my older brother was my roomate) at 17. My mother essentially told me to get a job at 13 years old - she would provide food and shelter but everything else (clothes, shoes, etc) were my responsibility to earn. South Americans don't play. Tiger moms have nothing over jaguar moms. If THF is living at home and leeching from his parents, I would find that contemptible. But THF doesn't come across as a leecher per se, perhaps a tad immature but not a leecher. But if there is a beneficial exchange occurring,i.e., he's paying rent, or offsetting any costs incurred by his presence, then there is no harm being done - it's a mutually beneficial arrangement.

And my prior post shouldn't be taken out of context. I'm grateful to my mother and I plan to be there when she really needs me. However the lifestyle she desires in old age may be unrealistic because of the level of care she may require. I'm setting the tone that she will need to be flexible because I will not be held prisoner to unrealistic expectations or demands. I will try to make her as happy and comfortable as possible without bankrupting myself or breaking my sanity. I'll do whatever is required to maintain her health and dignity but not her pride.
Last edited by Campitor on Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Scott 2
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by Scott 2 »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:36 pm
I am wondering why nobody has noted the fact that THF is currently being financially supported by his parents who are in so much worse shape than him?
This is why I think he's going to end up giving them financial assistance in old age. Doesn't strike me as a cut the family lose sort of guy.

prognastat
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by prognastat »

@7W5

It would depend on if he is helping or worsening their situation. If he is paying rent and covering his own food, utility use etc. Then he is actually benefiting them by staying with them. If he isn't then of course that changes things some, but still wouldn't change the fact that parents do have an obligation to their children that isn't owed in the other direction.

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Sclass
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by Sclass »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:36 pm
I am wondering why nobody has noted the fact that THF is currently being financially supported by his parents who are in so much worse shape than him?
This really adds a twist to the situation.

I get it, he’s using his folks’ resources to ERE faster. That is common these days with the high cost of housing.


Tough calls here. When does care end? When does it begin.

TopHatFox
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by TopHatFox »

Haha, you guys must visit Miami. It’s the norm not the exception for people under 30 to live with their folks, maybe more so than any other US city. I don’t have to live with them, in fact I could get a room for $600/mo walking distance from work, but living with them helps me save 7K per year and be more involved in helping make family financial decisions such as SS withdrawals, leasing v owning cars, car models, portfolio management (eventually lol), wills & advanced medical directives, rental unit tenants, and other long term planning. The new rental will bring in 12K/year for them alone.

If I can get my parents on their own stable financial footing now, I can avoid a lot of issues down the line for them and me. Meanwhile, I’ll be working full time and getting a free MA or two while using one room.

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Sclass
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by Sclass »

That’s fine Z. You make some good arguments here.

Let me throw in that you are being helpful and that is setting a precedent. I’m not saying it’s wrong but it may lay down the foundations for future expectations.

I’m hitting fifty this month. I fell into this trap gradually. Over about forty years.

My siblings have run away. I get it now. If I could go back I would have broken free from mom and just abandoned her in 1994 and left her to fend for herself. I made my current Hell come to be.

Good luck.

suomalainen
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by suomalainen »

Sclass wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:21 am
Let me throw in that you are being helpful and that is setting a precedent. I’m not saying it’s wrong but it may lay down the foundations for future expectations.

I’m hitting fifty this month. I fell into this trap gradually. Over about forty years...I made my current Hell come to be.
I'll just note that parenting works like this too.

jacob
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by jacob »

https://brilliantmaps.com/europe-live-parents/

It's likely related to culture and disposable income per capita. The discussions between "Italians" and "Germans" in the grad student offices in Switzerland(*) about whether someone still lived at home/next door to mamma was a continuing source of amusement.

(*) A mix of southern and northern cultures.

I don't have maps of "filial piety" when it comes to the other way around (parents moving in with their children) but I think this too relates to the degree to which elder care has been institutionalized.

jacob
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Re: Operation Bail The Parents Out Planning

Post by jacob »

Also, when it comes to "fixing" friends & family, recall the required conditions for change from the last section of chapter 1. What usually happens is that "you" (THF in this case) can supply a plan and sell a vision (at least in the short term) but that "they" (THF's parents) aren't really that dissatisfied with their current situation when it comes down to it.

For example, the vast majority are content in living paycheck to paycheck (regardless of whether those paychecks can stop at any time, hence zero savings), having dreams without plans, being overweight and prediabetic, being surrounded by clutter, and otherwise living in a stream of unoptimized waste so to speak.

The standard advice that comes up again and again---has it been mentioned in this thread yet?---is no responsibility without authority.

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