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Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:25 am
by TopHatFox
@theanimal, Hey didn’t you go to the University of Miami? I guess you know the social struggle of this city first-hand for the boho-minded.

Now that I’ve finally rid myself of this double jaw surgery bullshit (and damn does my new bite and profile look good), I can finally move at the drop of a hat! <3

Agreed, west is where I’ll go. But where? At some point, I’ll need to do some research on different places and land a job in that place before moving.

You know what I wonder? I know it’s only been 6 months, but I’m already working my role remotely during recovery for a few weeks, and nothing has lit on fire. What if, I ask if I can do my role remotely permanently at some point? I’m sure I can switch the last few grad classes to online too.

The risk would be that wherever I move to with new job in tow ends up sucking too, but I doubt CO would disappoint, for example. It’s also pretty nice to not pay rent and hang with the parents, but it makes inviting a girl over difficult, especially since they usually live with their parents as well lmao.


holy shit, let’s take a step back here. For the modern man to find a girlfriend, he needs to polish himself and move accross the country? Dire times indeed, but no point in arguing with the facts.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:51 am
by Jean
If your life sucks and you're looking for a woman to relieve it, you'll either stay alone or get used. Maybe I'm a complete exception but enjoying my life and spending time with people I enjoyed was a key in finding a partner. I'll give the same advice as I gave to the great void. Imagine what your ideal partner would need in a man, and become that man. Or the other way, try to think what kind of partner would enjoy someone like you, and find it.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:17 am
by TopHatFox
@Jean, agreed, I want a wholesome outdoorsy boho woman in her early to late 20’s. I am the type of the guy she’d be into. Problem is, finding one of those in South Florida is like needle in a haystack. :lol:

My life is fine otherwise. I like my job, co-workers, and the larger institution I work for. Living situation is pretty groovy since it’s free and close to work. Socially and romantically this place is not a fit at all, so, my only recourse is targeting niches or moving.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:19 am
by theanimal
No. I went to the Miami in Ohio.

You're never going to know what you like until you see it in person. You have enough fuck you money to toss out the idea of working remotely and/or travelling around and finding somewhere you like. I say go for it. Someone with skills like yourself should find a decent paying job without much issue.*

*Moving to a new area may result in a longer time to do so since known community is small to nonexistent.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:28 am
by thegreatvoid
TopHatFox wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:25 am

holy shit, let’s take a step back here. For the modern man to find a girlfriend, he needs to polish himself and move accross the country? Dire times indeed, but no point in arguing with the facts.
we don´t need to look any further than at Calhoun's Mouse Utopia Experiment , as to why there´s such a divide between the sexes and why wetern societies are going to shit.

@Jean that´s the problem. With the rise of dating-apps even <5 women get approached by 100 guys an hour, thus thinking they´re entitled to a Christian Grey

Just look at many of these women´s dating profile. Usually goes like this: must be 7 foot tall, handsome, rich , accept that the girl has 10 kids by 7 different men, she doesn´t need a man ... if you don´t fit these critierias don´t even bother !

I think OKCupid did a survey, where women rated 80 % of men undeseriable..... :cry:

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:13 am
by TopHatFox
@thegreatvoid, honestly man, I think the next step after the normalization of sugar dating and cam sites featuring the girl-next-door is outright app-enabled prostitution. Swipe right, show up, Paypal transfer. It’ll probably be marketed under empowerment or something. I don’t think VR will be very different than regular cam sites, just with an iphone strapped to your face. Another interesting sociological developement would be high-quality sex robots. How many men will pay the high price of dating when they can buy an ‘okay’ surrogate instead?

But that’s all speculation, and porn should be limited or avoided, so for now we play with the cards as they are.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:24 am
by 7Wannabe5
Couple thoughts...

Based on my experience, I think some of what is going on is due to the fact that internet/app dating works well for extroverted men and introverted women. When I was young, if/when men approached me in a public venue where it was not expected, my typical reaction would be either complete cluelessness or freeze/bolt. If I wanted to meet men, I would have to get dressed up and go to a bar or a party. which are venues I don't particularly enjoy, and deal with a bunch of drunks with dubious intent. Now, I can intermittently meet men while sitting at home in my pajamas, while simultaneously reading a book on systems theory and cooking a pot of soup. But, as some male friends have pointed out to me, I usually end up dating men who are much more extroverted than me, because they are the men who are first and most confidently out of the box whenever I signal availability.

For better or worse, I am one of those people who on a good day might rate an 8, but on a bad day might sink to 4 in terms of physical appearance. So, I might suggest that part of the problem is that many men don't even start their scale at 1. It goes more like Invisible, Invisible, Invisible, Invisible, Passable, Cute2, Cute1, Hot, Super-Hot. This tendency is magnified by the fact that many women won't even date if they are feeling/looking like less than a 6. So, there is this large middle-market of neurotic women who are off the market, and all you see on dating apps are women who are either confident or cocky.

Also, I think girls my daughters age are often trying very hard not to date any man who reminds them of their Boomer/Gen-X cusp father, so they highly value traditionalist/responsible signaling.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:27 am
by thegreatvoid
@TopHatFox Go on youtube, there are already a bunch of videos from so called " sex workers " , who are being cheered by radical feminists. Apparently selling your body for money is empowering ...
It´s funny how in many places where prostitution is illegal, it´s a crime to buy sex , but not to sell. ( this is the case in Canada, sweden , norway, south africa )
. Just imagen somebody not going to jail for selling drugs, but the junkie being locked up. ... e-a-crime/

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:33 am
by Stahlmann
There was recently study in Finland on 'who has more than 2 partners in last year" by age group, gender and time... :Lol:

Results won't make you happier

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:47 am
by thegreatvoid
@Stahlmann there´s a reason why they´re trying to outlaw paternity tests without the mothers consent :-)
Somebody has been sleeping around... ... thers.html

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:46 am
by jacob
If I may summarize the strategy as it has developed so far.

First, a list of rare criteria was set up, e.g. must be hot, emotionally deep, great with money, highly educated, between 20 and 29, and female. Now, the statistical brain switches on: The easiest assumption is that these are independent variables. In that case, we can just multiply the probabilities. I'll admit to doing this [sad bordering on funny(*)] exercise when I was a frustrated 17 year old because it's been long enough and to serve as an example of a path you don't want to get into. In any case, the answer is something like 0.0000004% per square kilometer($). That doesn't look promising!

(*) Albeit not funny at all when you're the one doing it.
($) Probability is substantially higher in Japanese anime but I'm told these people aren't real!

Hmm... being as it is hard to shed one's STEM impulses, the next obvious step is to presume a non-uniform concentration. That's actually valid. I half-amusedly figured that someone was eventually going to suggest relocating to the land of such unicorns which as everybody(**) now knows is... tadaa... Denver, CO.

(**) What does this say about the competition.

However, there's still something wrong with the science, I think. What if those variables above aren't independent? If they're partially correlated then hot people are also smart and vice versa ... or that emotionally deep people are also great with money.... I'll go out on a limb here and suggest checking your criteria for any kind of anti-correlations because this will make the problem so much harder. It is, for example, really hard to find someone who is both nerdy and popular unless his name is Stephen Hawking.

Next things to think about which is related to those Colorado plans is of course the level of competition. I'm 15 years out of the dating world so I literally have no idea what the selection criteria are these days. In my day when online dating was rather new, one could distinguish oneself by being (a) online (as opposed to at work or in a bar or at work in a bar; and (b) by being able to run a spell checker on one's "e-mails". Now that tech has been universally reduced to toddler level (swipe this way or that way ... right answer being front to back :-P ), "nature" has found another way, but as I said, I don't know what that is anymore.

Frankly, all of the above considerations suggests the maturity of an adolescent mind and [sex]drive (Kegan2). It's all about "me". What can "I" get? Who can "I" date? How do I optimize this probability function for "me"? How do "I" get laid? Can "I"/Why can't "I" just buy sex? For 85% of adults (of both genders), this is just a phase ... or a bubble(%) if you will. Consider how a relationship of 6 months is universally seen as "very serious" when you're in high school---if it's longer than a year there's practically something weird going on. When you get older, like over the hill old (age 30+), these might not even be counted as relationships. Point being, there comes a point in time (after the bubble bursts perhaps) where this will retrospectively be seen as [unbearable] drama.

(%) I presume everybody has seen that OkCupid graph that shows physical attraction vs age for the opposite sex. If not, I'll summarize. To men, women peak in physical attractiveness in their early 20s regardless of the age of the man (this looks like a delta function centered at age 22 or so). To women, men are most physically attractive if they are within a few yeas of her own age. (This looks like a linear graph). As it is now, THF is passing through (as he is getting older) the domain of maximum competition. Not only is THF competing with men of all ages (including the older ones who try really hard and the older ones who haven't yet realized they don't stand a chance), he is also competing with other men his own age.

So leaving the ego-centered statistics behind and moving onwards and upwards, the next concept is to realize the personhood of the other person, not just in the abstract (there are now college classes taught in this :? ), but also in one's behavior. (This is harder than it sounds.) This is what's behind all the "just be yourself and they will(***) come" advice. It works too. There are two ways to this level. Call these pathways level 2.5.

1) After failing to find the one (or even anyone for the incel crowd), you eventually give up trying. Insofar you're not living on Lunar Base Alpha, this will instantly make you more attractive.(***)

(***) No guarantees. You do have to be in an environment that allows you to be found. Using CrazyLemon's example, the school of pediatricians will certainly have a much higher likelihood function than the school of nuclear physics.

2) You actively switch your focus to becoming the person that your target demographic finds attractive. IOW, it is here realized that the potential partner/date is a "who" and not a "what". This doesn't mean changing your identity, but it probably does mean polishing off some edges.

Going from "getting the ego laid" to "dating other persons", next up is changing focus from the two individuals to the relationship itself (Kegan4). At this point (which I personally began to realize/acknowledge when I was 28 or so), it becomes clear that the relationship is not something you have with the other person or the other person has with you but rather something you're building together. Here I suggest dropping the elaborately optimized Venn diagram we started out with because most of these are not very relevant to relationship building. Other factors might be more important such as "do we argue/disagree well?", "do we want to give more than we get?", "do we share the same goals?".

Given the high divorce rates, less than half of all people (of all ages) get to this point.

Note the progression from "I" to "you" to "we". I don't mean to imply that this is a science or that I actually have the answers here. However, from what I've anecdotally experienced and read(+), there does seem to be a Wheaton effect going on here in that it is very hard to see the next evolution (to the point of denial and anger) whereas in retrospect once cleared, it will be impossible to regress to an earlier perspective.

(+) And there's a big difference between knowing something in theory (wissen) and knowing it in practice (kennen). Unfortunately English doesn't really make the distinction (I think some dialects have "kenn"?).

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:44 am
by CS
Love your reply. Great explanation from the perspective of being older and wiser.

The author of marriage builders ran a dating service for a short time and found the number one issue he had with his clients was that they would focus on what they wanted while doing nothing about 'being' a good date themselves. He spent a large amount of time coaching them on this, and not surprisingly, those who improved themselves had better success. It's not quite Kegan level 4 of building a relationship, but at least it is closer to seeing that they are dating a 'who', and had to have something to offer for a relationship to make sense for the other party.

I'm not sure about your Denver reference. It might be so for women, since the nickname I heard the most for that place while living there was 'Manver'. YMMV

For the OP, I have to agree that you are competing against a lot of men that have a lot to offer - money, looks, interesting hobbies. It's been a long time, but at that age I would make up boyfriends just to be left alone - my main longing for a boyfriend was to get the hoard of other men off my back. "No" often didn't work. "I have a boyfriend" did.

Agree that women often don't want to date when they feel like a 6 or lower. Also, being ignored by a prospective candidate while some cuter women around can be a permanent turn off. A male will probably not recover his chances with the less attractive option if he exhibits that behavior.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:04 am
by unemployable
Focus on yourself and your career/wealth building/resiliency activities. If you do it well enough you will achieve some combination of giving no fucks about women and/or having to beat them back with a stick. Women want men with money. Period.
1. Lots of nature
2. A well-educated, elite population
3. Balanced ratios or more women than men
4. 50-100K population
I don't think you'd like the Colorado Front Range. It was a nice place pre-2012 or so before every millennial decided to move there, and it's always had more men than women. Now it's way too expensive for what it offers. (I live in CO west of the Divide, but likely not for much longer.) Try Asheville, North Carolina; 85 men for every 100 women says the wiki. Or the larger cities in the eastern half of Tennessee, which are cheap but not as cool.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:35 am
by ZAFCorrection
One thing I have noticed is the internet seems to be awash in 30-something women bemoaning their currently uncommitted state. At the same time most of them indicate evidence of having been very successful all this time in getting sex or at least casual relationships. It is possible some of this new-found wisdom might trickle down the age ranges and a strategy shift might occur.

Though, to pass off autobiography as advice, as a man spending your twenties in self-improvement and clarifying exactly what you need and what you can live without seems to work pretty well even in the current climate. After a certain point the slightly older women are giving you a ton of attention.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:36 am
by ffj
Sometimes being older has its advantages, haha. The thought of running around trying to get women's attention exhausts me just thinking about it. I've been watching some Netflix show where these Mormon dudes take on multiple wives and instantly start knocking them up. Imagine having three women around you in perpetual pregnancy with a ton (one dude had 19 kids) of children running around everywhere. Yeah, you get to bang three different women with their consent but my goodness the price you would have to pay. Anyway, I digress.

I don't have much advice for you young guys other than college will be the last time you have access to tons of young people like yourself all confined to one area. Take advantage of it and meet some people while they are still around. Once you enter the workforce all of the rules change as far as accessibility.

Most women and most men are fairly normal in what they want, and stereotypes can and do apply. The trick is not to become jaded ( MGTOW? incels? WTF?), embrace reality, and match expectations for whatever stage of life you are currently in. Also, quit looking for the end product and find someone you can grow and develop together with to become what you desire. If you encounter a woman already meeting your requirements she probably doesn't need your ass for anything.

Building off of that last statement, understand you wouldn't be out there looking if you didn't have a need to, and likewise so are all of the women. Common sense would tell you that if you possess some of the answers to what women need then your chances are greatly improved in having a say in the matter. If you are balking at the price of admission, then maybe consider reframing your argument or that you are mismatched without realistic expectations. It's very easy to write off failures in relationships as the default, and not the growing pains necessary for eventual success.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:11 pm
by TopHatFox
@Jacob, I have noticed that finding a potential millenial or gen z partner who understands that building a relationship takes effort and nuanced conversations is rare. The best women I’ve found are in the new agey workshops, because those encourage vulnerability. Higher wheaton levels present there.

@ffj, Yeah, I mean of course, work on yourself first. The assumption on my end is that I already have optimized for looks, uniqueness, and money. I’m fit, have fitting clothing, have a networth in the top 20% of my age, have pedigree education, and have sailed 2000 miles, biked 1000, and thru-hiked 200. The problem is that even this is often not enough in a highly competive environment, so new strategies are necessary.

I disagree with the idea that not looking improves chances. That’s probably just being confused with the idea of not putting women on a pedestal. One can actively pursue women while not putting them on a pedestal. If I am the product, then I must present the product to my audience for them to purchase it.

It is possible that Denver has bad gender ratios, one of my concerns. That’s why I like the digital nomad idea. If a place I think might be good sucks, I can move me and my livelihood no problem. As opposed to moving for a job that took months to get just to discover it’s the same shit in a different place. I do doubt it’s terrible though. I did an experiment by changing my Okc tin to Demver for a few weeks when I had it, and got way more dates and interest in a shorter amount of time. That is a decent indicator that the location is a better fit. Women aside, Denver has way more nature spaces than South florida and it’s easier to travel to other places using it as a hub.

I’ve read good things of Asheville, NC, and of NC in general. I’ll tack it to the list of places to visit.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:20 pm
by prognastat
jacob wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:46 am
(+) And there's a big difference between knowing something in theory (wissen) and knowing it in practice (kennen). Unfortunately English doesn't really make the distinction (I think some dialects have "kenn"?).
I think in English some make the case this is the difference between knowledge(wissen) and wisdom(kennen). However as I'm not a 100% native English speaker I might be incorrect on this.


As for money and dating, even in millennial and younger generations appearing to make less than a potential partner is still a turnoff for the majority of women. This can be counteracted some by displaying "potential", if you appear to be smart/capable this will discount lack of current income some, however given some of the data it seems unless you are able to realise said potential somehow in the long run chances for divorce are much higher if the female party in the relationship makes more money over the long term than the male counterpart. This is of course a conflict with a lot of what ERE/FIRE would have you aim for as it is generally opposed to lavish displays of wealth and signalling wealth as these things aren't conducive to actually gaining the wealth to ERE/FIRE so there will be some need for compromise here. Smart spending can help some. Spending some on high quality and durable clothing and accessories that signal some wealth could be a worthwhile. The question of course becomes do you want to increase your pool of interested women if this will increase the chances of those that are interested not meeting one of your criteria(the no debt/good with money part).

Age can be another problem. You are still young. This is great if you're a woman, much less great when you are a man. You aren't at an attractive age to many women. Women that would consider you based just on your age would probably be a few years younger than you. Which puts you in a range here many might still be in college making it harder for you to run in to them as you aren't anymore. Also women of that age are less likely to meet all your goals as many are unlikely to be debt free.

Being/appearing needy. It's unfortunate, but the more desperately you want a relationship the harder it seems to be to get it. Being needy isn't attractive. This is hard to fake though so some introspection is always good here. If you can realise what you want/need out of life and that even though you want a relationship with a woman, but that this isn't the most important thing in life this will likely make you more attractive simply though making yourself less needy. Not saying this may be the case for you TopHatFox, but it's something worth mentioning as you made a post about having trouble finding women.

Looking at the OKcupid data is a good indication of what the expectations would be if the primary aspect being judged is looks. As a man you need to be an in the 80th percentile or higher to be considered attractive. If you are using online dating/apps as a primary means of getting dates then you better be attractive. This is going to be a combination, you need to naturally be attractive and be in good shape. If this isn't you either through unfortunate circumstances or through choice then this isn't the way for you to get dates/relationships. Thankfully when you take yourself out of markets that focus only on your appearance other factors can level the playing field some, because other factors become part of the equation. Lesson is unless you are in that 80th percentile trying to get women through clubs, bars and online dating/apps is a losing proposition. Chances are your potential partners are still going to look at getting someone more attractive than themselves even in offline situations, but you might finds it's more like a 7 man getting a 6 woman offline rather than the 7 getting 4 that you've grown accustomed to.

In the end if you want it all in a partner(attractive, smart, active, fun and good with money) then you are going to have to have it all for them too plus a little extra. So it's best to primarily focus on yourself, what do you want out of a partner and what would such a partner want out of you. Then go out and make the improvements to yourself to be more like the ideal partner for your ideal partner. If you want a unicorn, be a unicorn.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:31 pm
by TopHatFox
@prognostat, agreed, the idea to act like you don’t want a relationship is a good one. It is the woman who has to initiate the “are we a relationship?” conversation. And you are only allowed to show as much interest as she is showing at the moment. As soon as you show more interest than she is, especially early on, it’s game over.

The age thing is also a good point. And my braces don’t help. This may be a ridicolous notion, but I’m genuinely curious to see how getting rid of the braces will impact the turnover of my day approaches. It’s possible I’m living with a crutch without even realizing it. Short-term loss for a long-term gain.

In the meantime, I’ll keep plugging away at the savings and entertain myself with women as a hobby. Things could be much, muxh worse in the large scheme of things.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:41 pm
by unemployable
Denver Denver Denver, Jesus Christ why does everyone want to move to goddamned Denver. It's a very ordinary metro area -- not a bad one, just an ordinary one -- that happens to have a mountain range on one side. Culturally it's on the same level as Boise or Spokane. And it used to be priced as an ordinary city until it became a snowier, more inland San Diego. Within this decade houses in Lakewood were going for under $100k, and 1BRs in Capitol Hill could be rented in the $600-700 range.

Anyway, I don't agree with the Red Pill folks on everything, but one of their more salient philosophies is that of outcome independence -- where you don't care what happens to you. My phrase for this is zero investment, and I try apply it far more broadly, on everything from hiking trips to attending sporting events. You seem to be attached to a fair amount of outcome dependency. I won't tell you to stop, that's up to you, but do believe you should be aware of how it affects your decision making.

Re: Will the cis-female bubble ever pop?

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:51 pm
by prognastat

The thing to keep in mind though is that acting as if convincingly is much harder than actually feeling this way. If you can get to a point where you want a relationship, but don't need it it will come much easier. This actually becomes easier as you age, because you are still at an age where your hormones are hard at work trying to get you to propagate.

The braces probably don't help as they are both not attractive and probably make you appear more immature right now, but they will be good in the long run.