ERE Dating Strategy

[white belt]

I’ve seen a couple of threads through the years talking about dating and ERE. I also see frequent lamentations from (typically men) that they think dating and ERE are incompatible. Therefore, I’d like to share my strategy that I’ve developed over the years which I hope may provide some guidance to others who are trying to come up with their own strategy. Note: I am a single male in his mid-20’s who is interested in women, so YMMV with different circumstances.

First, lets examine the Renaissance Man framework (ERE book) that is broken down into the following areas:
• Physiological
• Intellectual
• Economic
• Emotional
• Social
• Technical
• Ecological

Developing competency in these areas WILL make you more attractive to women because competency not only builds confidence, but allows you to demonstrate competence in a wide variety of areas. A first order effect of pursuing the renaissance ideal is that it WILL make you a more interesting person.

One resource that I found immensely helpful is the Mate podcast and book. Rather than a PUA book, this is the most comprehensive and academically grounded system for achieving your mating goals. Most dating advice is either in the form of tactic or lacks the detailed explanation to effectively implement in real life (E.g.: “women like confidence, so just act more confident around them”).

I’ll start with defining some terms:

Confidence – realistic expectation you have of being successful at something given your competence in it and the risk involved with doing it

Signaling theory - having attractive traits isn't enough, you must also be able to display them to the opposite sex to attract a mate

Attractive Traits (things you are)
• Physical health
• Mental health
• Intelligence
• Willpower
• Tender Defender (Aggreableness+Assertiveness) – emotional intelligence combined with masculine traits

Attractive proofs (things you demonstrate)
• Social proof - being known, delivering value, and receiving respect from your social network
• Material proof - financial stability
• Aesthetic proof - taste and thoughtfulness in what you have, do, make, and create
• Romantic proof - being genuine, honest, warm

Here are the guideline steps to the strategy:
1. Understand your goals and the female perspective
2. Develop Attractive Traits
3. Display Attractive Proofs
4. Go Where the Woman Are


Note: this is a strategy, so you will have to do the work to come up with tactics that are specific to your situation, but I will give some examples of things that have worked for me:

1. The basic idea is that you need to have an idea of what your mating goals are (ranging from a lot of one night stands to finding a woman to spend the rest of your life with in a monogamous relationship, and everything in between). I see a lot of millennials mess this up because they haven’t sat with themselves and quantified what they want, so they just drift in and out of relationships. You should be pretty good at reflecting and thinking analytically if you are into ERE. The second part of this is understanding the female mating perspective, which requires some empathy. I won’t rehash the entire chapter, but I recommend talking to a female friend or sister about the female dating experience. Simple example: attractive females will get 10x the matches on a dating app than an attractive male, so dating is really an entirely different experience for women. Many guys are completely oblivious to this.

2. You will notice that the attractive traits map almost directly to the renaissance man framework, which means if you have been pursuing ERE you are pretty well set on this step.

3. Social proof will be pretty easy to demonstrate with your strong social network you’ve been building up in pursuit of FI. Material proof sounds antithetical to ERE on the surface, however your financial stability actually gives you a huge leg up. Wealth is attractive to women not as an end to itself, but because in order to acquire financial stability you must possess many of the attractive traits listed above (this is why self-made millionaires are more attractive than lottery winners). Aesthetic proof within ERE has been covered in other threads, but 90% of it is being physically fit, well-groomed, and wearing clothes that are clean and fit you well. Note that none of these things require a lot of money. Aesthetic proof with your possessions really just means keeping your car/home/other possessions clean and uncluttered. The takeaway from signal theory is that you must be aware of the signals that you are sending.

4. If you live somewhere that has a dense enough population to enable you to live car free, you are probably living in an urban area that also has really good public amenities (library, parks, museums) and more females per capita than males. The important thing is to understand that a mating market can be very small, so you need to know exactly what your market is and align your hobbies/social activities to things that would include girls within your mating market. For example, if I am interested in college educated yuppies in their mid-20’s who are also physically fit, a medium sized city is a great place to be and some activities could include a running club, yoga, Crossfit, intramural sports, and so on. Substitute your market/hobbies/etc. Note: pick something that you genuinely enjoy, so no matter what you will at least have fun and make new friends. The idea is NOT to just pretend you are interested in something to hit on girls.


Obviously, I just scratched the surface and could cover a lot more, but this was more to just get a discussion going. I just wanted to provide an overview of a way I’ve found to develop a systems-based strategy towards dating. Anyone else have their own strategies/systems they want to share?

[Jean]

One very important point, which disapointed m'en seem to ignore, is that you attracte women attracted to What you display. Many m'en complaint about how women only like money, After spending years showing off money to attractive girls. On an other direction, i used to Always end with women excpecting à chimp of some sort because this is What i was showing. Display What you want to be loved for.

[frugalone]

OP- you sound very smart. Please use your powers for good and not evil. LOL
Most women I know can see through a player like cheap toilet paper. But hey..I'm old enough to be your Mom.

As a single, I find myself attracted to the self-employed go getter. No whiney pants for me.

[chenda]

I wonder whether dating itself is a good idea, or an inefficient way of meeting people whilst incurring a lot of heartache, angst and the rest.

Maybe there's a better way ?

[Jin+Guice]

I have 3 pieces of dating advice to those struggling.

1. Dates should be entertaining. Always be having fun on a date. If you're not having fun just leave. It's fine to feel briefly depressed about a bad date, everyone does.

2. Don't put the p...... There are plenty of fish in the sea. I don't believe in true love or finding a perfect mate or happily ever after. As long as you are not in some Wuthering Heights dating doomsday scenario no one is so special that they can't be replaced. This is especially important early in the game. Don't get too attached early on, this is usually either a huge turn off or a huge turn on for people who are insane. I'm not sure why. Spoiler alert, I used to be very guilty of this.

3. The anti-M'lady/ neckbeard rule. If you met you would you be impressed? Christ am I tired of other dudes telling me how their awesome bro can't get laid. Your bro is a tub and/ or a complete loser with no confidence, so no one cares how nice he is. I mean I do because he's been feeding me single malt for the last 4 hours, but that's getting him nowhere.

This is why nice guys (really nice people) tend to finish last. No one wants to be bored. No one wants to be creepily fawned over by some sweaty dude they barely know. No one is impressed by niceness alone. If you are ERE you should already be killing all 3 of these. Perhaps you are shy? Dating is a risk/ reward game where the downside is humiliating yourself (which is temporary, though painful) and the upside is basically infinite. Knowing what you want is key, but the only way to know what you want is to play the game. I also agree with everything the OP said and don't think anything I've said contradicts it.

[white belt]

@frugalone Yes, I think "players" get that label because they are trying to be something that they are not, or more specifically they are trying to display proofs for traits that they do not possess. This is very easy to see through. The dating strategy I discuss relies on developing traits first, and then learning how to signal those traits. Therefore, I am not 'faking' anything because I actually already have (and continue to) put in the blood/sweat/tears to develop competencies that also happen to fit into my web of goals.

@chenda I'm not sure if that is a rhetorical question, but the dating system with the least amount of friction would be to only date women that you already come into contact with doing activities you enjoy. This is because you will already have something in common (the activity) and you don't have to expend any extra time/effort to meet them. Like everything else, your success level will depend on your mating market (urban center will probably be pretty good; Alaskan logging town will be much more difficult).

[white belt]

@Jin+Guice Yes, I believe we are on the same page. Rule #1 for any social activity is to have fun. It sounds silly, but I do find some people really get way too wrapped up in their own heads and forget to just try to connect with other people on a basic level. Humans are social animals.

[Hobbes]

I wonder whether dating itself is a good idea, or an inefficient way of meeting people whilst incurring a lot of heartache, angst and the rest.

Maybe there's a better way ?

Out of curiosity: where were you going with this?

[chenda]

@ Hobbes - I was wondering if there is still a roll for a voluntary arranged marriage/LTR. Rather than going through the whole rigmarole of dating, tell friends or family that you are looking to meet someone serious and let them use their knowledge of you to match you up with someone suitable. Although in western culture this would now be very unusual and might be difficult. Not a criticism of the OP, just a thought.

[slsdly]

@chenda, I've had a few friends who well aware of my pursuit of ERE introduce me to single friends of theirs. Unfortunately there does seem to be an unfortunate unwritten expectation that I will change to be more normal. When I started ERE, my mindset was rooted in financials and escaping a job I dreaded, and I might have been more amendable to changes to meet in the middle. As the years have gone by, the ethical argument for ERE has resonated more (via reduced consumption), and I find it difficult to compromise from that perspective. I already consume too much, the idea of compromising on more fills me with dread haha.

In the past year, I've somehow become more attractive by avoiding indulging in romantic pursuits, and as a result received more interest than in the preceding 5 years. I guess it is hard to tell the difference between confidence and indifference, but easy to dismiss overeagerness . It just sounds like work to me now. I have little interest in anything short term, but eschewing the whole house-in-the-city/dogs/travel/private-school-for-kids/etc paradigm really narrows down the target market.

[7Wannabe5]

@white belt:

I agree that the practice that you are describing will place you at least 1.5 Wheaton levels above the horde. However, the question that eventually arises is what will happen when you find yourself on a date with a woman who has read all the same strategy books as you?

I know that you are not promoting or describing a "player" strategy, but I will offer a simple example of what I mean based on that model. Since, I have read "player" strategy books, I know that one tactic is "keep it random." So, now that I possess knowledge and experience related to "keep it random" tactic, when a man makes use of that tactic in relationship to me, I just kind of do the math right through it, almost on auto-pilot. If I am only interested in casual myself, then I will just designate him as Firefly; somebody who is off my radar completely until/unless he makes another appearance combined with VERY attractive offer in the moment. If I am seeking anything more serious, I will have to decide between the conservative play of Cut Him Off Cold vs. the high-risk, high-energy-requirement play of Rogue Reformation Version 2B. Of course, RRV2B will be inclusive of the B'rer Rabbit Relaxed Proximity Web, the Sudden 6 to 9 Reveal, and maybe even the Hard Reset Button (either Beyonce or Austen style.) Etc. etc. etc.

[Hobbes]

@Seven

I'm pretty familiar with the podcast that the OP mentioned (I've listened to the all of them at this point), so I'll take a stab at this.
What they're arguing for in the podcast isn't to adopt a set of tactics, it is to become attractive; ie, develop attractive habits. It's not that you're trying to come across as confident, for example. It's that you really are confident (as a consequence of hard work on your part). Once you're at that position, then you can signal to women within your mating market that you have such and such traits via your various manners of proving that you have such traits.

So, for your example. If you were on a date with a guy who had followed the advise OP gave, and was at the end of that path so to speak, they'd really only be showing you who they are. The classic 'just be themselves.'

So it isn't about appearing to be anything, or following a set of tactics; it's about developing personality traits and pursing lifestyle choices that would be broadly attractive on their own.

Think of it as developing a strong set of fundamentals for dating (from the male side of things).

[7Wannabe5]

@Hobbes:

I get what you are saying, and I noted that I was attempting a simpler example.

However, no matter how well you develop your fundamentals, you are still going to have to (depending on personality type and/or current perspective) attempt mutuality, negotiate/enforce contract, or engage in play.

A friend of mine offered an anecdote about a first date he had with a very attractive young woman. She had arranged her hair in some kind of elaborate manner and he made a comment about it looking something like a bird's nest and she burst into tears. IOW, there was no objective reason why she shouldn't have been very confident about her appearance, yet she wasn't.

I think dating is an activity for which many people actually over-prepare and/or use over-preparation as an excuse for procrastination or...? You can gain a good deal of confidence just by doing it and it will be much speedier process to improve your level of attraction based on actual feedback.

[Hobbes]

I think dating is an activity for which many people actually over-prepare and/or use over-preparation as an excuse for procrastination or...?

I've met a few people like that, and I may perhaps have been guilty of that myself at a few points in my life. But, at least in my personal experience, most people I've met haven't taken the path of overthinking dating. If anything, they may have under-thought it

You can gain a good deal of confidence just by doing it and it will be much speedier process to improve your level of attraction based on actual feedback.

This. At the end of the day, just going for it is about the only way to get better at it. It's like any skill, really. The more you practice, the better you get.

[IlliniDave]

OP, all the strategy is good, I suppose. Just don't get so caught up in a process that that you lose sight of what you're really after. It's probably more important to be able to make a prospective partner laugh than to market yourself as a slam dunk in every conceivable dimension. Of course, that is coming from someone who has basically evolved over the last decade into an incorrigible bachelor, and who spends almost no time thinking about dating.

[fiby41]

Maybe there's a better way ?

Arranged marriages, mail order brides, ...

You can gain a good deal of confidence just by doing it and it will be much speedier process to improve your level of attraction based on actual feedback.

*Spendier

[C40]

@chenda, I've had a few friends who well aware of my pursuit of ERE introduce me to single friends of theirs. Unfortunately there does seem to be an unfortunate unwritten expectation that I will change to be more normal. When I started ERE, my mindset was rooted in financials and escaping a job I dreaded, and I might have been more amendable to changes to meet in the middle. As the years have gone by, the ethical argument for ERE has resonated more (via reduced consumption), and I find it difficult to compromise from that perspective. I already consume too much, the idea of compromising on more fills me with dread haha.

This is interesting to me that your friends expect that you would change your ways.

Why do you think this is? I can't recall - are you male or female? (I could imagine some people thinking a woman is more likely to change her consumptive behavior when in a relationship). What is your myers-briggs type (and if you know, how assertive vs. turbulent).

I don't think any one of my (close) friends or family would expect me to change to be more normal just because I'm in a romantic relationship (or, for that matter, for nearly any reason at all). I'd guess that some of this has to do with how independent I am and how certain I am of my decisions.I also project some that things are going to be in the ways that I want or they're not going to happen. (I wouldn't say exactly "my way or the highway", but, that I won't make big compromises with incompatibilities).

[slsdly]

@C40, I'm sure we all have our blind spots where we assume others share (or don't) a belief, and can then be surprised when the opposite occurs. Certainly finances was in the mind of my referrers -- every person who knows me as more than an acquaintance, will know something of my aspirations and/or lifestyle. It is not a well kept secret. But when you get hints of what a prospect wants out of life, and they can't provide that themselves, it's been clear to me (or made so, hah) that they are looking at me to provide that. I feel positively about the people in general -- I just do not believe it would work.

I'm a straight man. INTJ. Reading a description, I would say turbulent is fairly accurate. I would not say that I try to present a normal image / hide my idiosyncrasies in general, but I must admit to self censorship to minimize scrutiny if I determine the crowd is, ahem, unsympathetic to my opinion.

As for reasons, well, I'm not going to claim a sample size of dozens of referrals. That's part of it. I'd much rather go cross country skiing all weekend with my club than bother with a date in town. I would also note that as an outsider, Toronto seems to be a place where locals would never consider leaving for anything but a vacation (in fairness I can't easily meet those that have left), and suffers a certain inflexibility I attribute to regional prosperity and affluence (why question what works).

[Stahlmann]

If somebody has image of my personality based on MGTOW topic, I must say I'm somehow evolved and I'm more considerate while discussing relationships' topic.

[...]

In other topic this issue struck my attention:

Very rich and unpleasant gals with very charming but spendy hubbies. I like it when they bring those guys over because they’re the ones you just must have paying attention to you. Everyone is happy. Man, woman, whatever, it seems to cut both ways...the only constant is one party has more money and the other has more charm.

How could this be replicated ?

Yes, I know "gigolo" term, but here this isn't the case (and this the reason why I'm curious).

The biggest part of my astonishment is that, I still belive that provider role is one of the main reason women find men attractive [or not] (of course I understand that there are ladies out there who don't care). I'm also musing on above mentioned setting as I worry this could backfire in current instagram culture.

[7Wannabe5]

Charm is the art of getting to "Yes" without even having to ask the question.

For a man this often comes down to knowing how to walk the line between being a total azz vs being just a bit of a spirited rogue.