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Re: Quiz: Do you live in a bubble (elitist)

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:37 pm
by Riggerjack
Ha! Don't push it unless you want me to relate some personal examples of the opposite signage as well :D The intolerance is largely orthogonal which is why red and blue can simultaneously think themselves largely tolerant while still thinking the other side is largely intolerant.
Please do. For balance if no other reason.

The urban bubble effect is Murray's theory, not mine. I was just pulling an example, because I have one.

National politics doesn't concern me much, blues come in, change what the reds did last, then make a few changes of their own. Then reds do exactly the same, so we have a bit of correction with each changing of the guard. My local elections are single party. Literally Dems against Dems, because a Rep can't pull second place. There is no changing of the guard, and no correction.

At state and higher levels, I assume most players to be partisan, but at least capable of understanding the motivation of the opposing views, even if they are dismissed. At the local level, it's echo chamber and loyalty tests, all the way down.

I understand that reds can hold office in other places, but since the blues have captured our credential mills (it seems inaccurate to call them universities any more) and most government drones are required to have credentials, I am curious about counter examples. I mean, I know there are red universities, but I doubt they are pumping out urban planners and ecology priests (which is completely different from ecologist, though they often share a credential and some of the same training) at anything like a matching pace.

It would be nice to hear stories of less dysfunction, or at least, opposing dysfunction.

Re: Quiz: Do you live in a bubble (elitist)

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:15 pm
by Scott 2
The "PBR guy" example above is the exception that proves the rule. If it weren't verboten, it wouldn't be worth knowing. Since he was signalling such an odd signal, I would expect him to be either peripheral to the group, or a central leader.
Nailed it. He was central to the work group, I thought because of personality, but it was his control over some essential systems. A new manager came in, classes clashed, and Mr. PBR got pushed to a low prestige position. Now it's rare to see him at any work events. The new manager orders high abv beer in tiny cups. The fancy beer is a conversation item people bond over at the bar. Fine whisky is another option I go with, because I won't afford the other favored topics, like European travel.

I've had serious conversations with co-workers about starred Michelin restaurants being absolutely worth it, as works of art. Never mind that it might cost $500+ per head for dinner, the only objection is how hard it is to get in. Tough to coordinate schedules and buy out a table that seats 6.

Another recent one was that a full time nanny is hard to justify with kid #1, but once you have 2, there's really no other option.

None of this feel like "urban elite" when you are in the bubble. It is literally everyone around you. My only "competing" perspective comes from self selected sources online like this forum. Even here, we're not the most diverse group.

The isolation can make social issues abstract "feel good" ideals. I am pro affordable care act, for immigrant rights, anti-war, pro education funding, etc. However, the reality is, I beyond some news articles, I almost never encounter either side of the issues. My healthcare is great and employer paid. The only immigrants I know are providing services or highly compensated professionals. I don't know a single active duty member of the military. My public school education was boosted by generous property taxes followed by an expensive private university. As early as 2nd grade, public school even segregated the NPR kids into "honors" classes.

One of the interesting parts of leveling in this group, is exposure to the people who are even more established. They have centralized power and intuitively reinforce it through business and social ventures. Nobody is saying "let's hold the poor people down" but they will profit on systems that have the same effect, even while anchoring on liberal ideals.

Re: Quiz: Do you live in a bubble (elitist)

Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:18 pm
by prognastat
It's easy to get isolated in a bubble. I would say it's part of human nature give our in-group vs out-group nature.

For most it's something you need to actively fight and from what I can tell most don't even want to fight it as it feels so much better to be part of the in-group to them. Fighting it involves actively adding friction to your social life. You can't just believe you and your friends/relatives are right and those that disagree with you/them are automatically wrong. However if you do choose to actively fight these biases you will have a good chance of either isolating yourself if you don't voice this to those in your in-group or them isolating you from them if you do voice them too much. As ostracisation has frequently been used as an extreme form of punishment in the past this can be extremely painful to those going through it and is thus avoided.

Evolutionarily speaking doing anything you can to avoid ostracisation would have been evolutionarily selected for as those ostracised from the tribe would likely be dead. So trying to fit in with your in-group is imperative for most and they will bend their morals if it will assist in this.

This is how you get rich people spouting off progressive talking points, yet often living their lives in ways very opposed to what they are saying. They need to say these things to remain part of their in-group, but they also need to behave in a different way to remain too. And if you call them out on it their cognitive dissonance can make them very uncomfortable and rather than introspect they will likely blame you for their discomfort.

Re: Quiz: Do you live in a bubble (elitist)

Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:26 am
by Riggerjack
Perhaps I was too aggressive in my wording in my last posts. I do have too much history of dealing with local government to be neutral about this, I think.

I don't have a problem with people being in bubbles. I think it is natural. And I don't think it's a problem one should address, personally, unless it is causing problems.

But when that bubble wraps thoroughly around institutions that make regulations that apply outside of bubble space, we have a real problem. Those making or enforcing the rules can't hear opposing viewpoints without triggering outgroup alarms. This is how civil wars start. When a differing opinion becomes a hostile act from an enemy, hostile actions are justified, and the stories of those hostile actions get circulated around the water cooler, with appropriate embellishment. Thus reinforcing the bubble and the attitude of expecting hostility from an outgroup.

But maybe this is a local problem. Or worse, just my problem :o .

Re: Quiz: Do you live in a bubble (elitist)

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:04 pm
by prognastat

I believe though that if the bubbles in our personal life become too strong that this is bound to overflow into the institutions as those themselves are made up of people. As we have moved more of our social interactions to the online space the ability to filter out those opposing you becomes easier than ever and much of it even happens without us being aware of it through algorithms automating it.

This is where I run in to a conflict with my morals in that I believe it to be immoral to force people to interact with those they don't wish to associate with, but I also believe it to be better if they did.

Re: Quiz: Do you live in a bubble (elitist)

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:18 pm
by Riggerjack
This is where I run in to a conflict with my morals in that I believe it to be immoral to force people to interact with those they don't wish to associate with, but I also believe it to be better if they did.
I am close to agreement.

This is where I run in to a conflict with my morals in that I believe it to be immoral to force people to interact with those they don't wish to associate with, but I also believe it to be better if they didn't make decisions for people they despise.

But then, my default answer is always to have decisions made at the lowest, most local level (where the information is), and regulations just moving the incentives of those decisions as necessary (where the big picture concerns are). But nobody is attracted to power for the purpose of making anything better for anyone else, if all of human history is a guide.

Re: Quiz: Do you live in a bubble (elitist)

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:33 am
by Jean
Except one guy, Hail One Guy!

Re: Quiz: Do you live in a bubble (elitist)

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:42 pm
by Sid
As a 20 year old college kid in Kansas I scored 38 on the pbs test, and 31 on Jacob's. Oh yeah

Re: Quiz: Do you live in a bubble (elitist)

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:38 pm
by Augustus
more and more i've started to feel like a visiting alien a la a stranger in a strange land, or maybe a time traveler observing the past. do people just have too much time on their hands, that this looks like an appealing way to spend said time? i would not have come up with beer preference = social bubble on my own in my entire life. but then i feel the same way about gay sex, it's a non issue. i really liked this peter theil speech, sums up how i feel:
My industry has made a lot of progress in computers and in software, and, of course, it's made a lot of money.

But Silicon Valley is a small place.

Drive out to Sacramento, or even across the bridge to Oakland, and you won't see the same prosperity. That's just how small it is.

Across the country, wages are flat.

Americans get paid less today than 10 years ago. But healthcare and college tuition cost more every year. Meanwhile Wall Street bankers inflate bubbles in everything from government bonds to Hillary Clinton's speaking fees.

Our economy is broken. If you're watching me right now, you understand this better than any politician in Washington. And you know this isn't the dream we looked forward to. Back when my parents came to America looking for that dream, they found it—right here in Cleveland.

They brought me here as a one-year-old, and this is where I became an American.

Opportunity was everywhere.

My Dad studied engineering at Case Western Reserve University, just down the road from where we are now. Because in 1968, the world's high tech capital wasn't just one city: all of America was high tech.

It's hard to remember this, but our government was once high tech, too. When I moved to Cleveland, defense research was laying the foundations for the Internet. The Apollo program was just about to put a man on the moon—and it was Neil Armstrong, from right here in Ohio.

The future felt limitless.

But today our government is broken. Our nuclear bases still use floppy disks. Our newest fighter jets can't even fly in the rain. And it would be kind to say the government's software works poorly, because much of the time it doesn't even work at all.

That is a staggering decline for the country that completed the Manhattan Project. We don't accept such incompetence in Silicon Valley, and we must not accept it from our government.

Instead of going to Mars, we have invaded the Middle East. ...

When I was a kid, the great debate was about how to defeat the Soviet Union. And we won. Now we are told that the great debate is about who gets to use which bathroom.

This is a distraction from our real problems. Who cares?


I don't pretend to agree with every plank in our party's platform. But fake culture wars only distract us from our economic decline.
I like to read old magazines, i was reading one on "technology of the future," in it they showcased technology from the 60s including hybrid electric cars with regenerative braking (gm opel), 747s with movie theaters and lounges, supersonic passenger aircraft, bullet trains, etc. Call me crazy, but it seems as though we've been resting on our laurels for a long time, other than smart phones and the internet, but both of those technologies have reached the point of diminishing returns IMO. I'm sure everything is much more refined and efficient which is great, and difficult, but man I wish we were boldly going forward instead of sending cat pictures. For the past 18 years I've been programming professionally, and really all I've done is convert paper forms to online forms. Further, practically everything I've done wont be around in 10 years, which is extremely inefficient, and it breaks down constantly, which is also extremely inefficient. Have I really contributed anything of value over paper other than cutting down a few days of transit time? Not sure it's worth the cost. My 1960s magazines are still kicking ass, and likely will after I'm dead and gone, none of what I've built will last that long.

Anyways, to tie that back in to OP, I sure wish people would spend their energies on more important stuff.

Re: Quiz: Do you live in a bubble (elitist)

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:39 pm
by Sid

Division is created among the people by controversial subjects that don't matter much in the grand scheme, such as aborting, guns, blah. This distraction diverts people's time and attention from doing things of substance and working together. Also some businesses are designed to absorb as much time and attention from its customers/users as it can, like Facebook. With that we get people spending their time sending cat pictures and arguing about kneeling. People do not realize this, so power stays where it is and nothing changes.

I share your wish @Augustus. I wonder what other factors may be in play, and how people might overcome this. I have a feeling it will take something major.

Re: Quiz: Do you live in a bubble (elitist)

Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:41 pm
by jacob
@Augustus -

+1 Converting paper forms to online forms is exactly it! That's pretty much what GenX managed to accomplish in the grand scheme of things.

Ready player one?

Re: Quiz: Do you live in a bubble (elitist)

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:25 am

Re: Quiz: Do you live in a bubble (elitist)

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:30 am
by Mister Imperceptible

Decline of the West