Part-time for life?

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Jin+Guice
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by Jin+Guice »

@BMF: I am in a similar situation with a high paying part-time job that I don't want to max out. I paid for my entire weeks worth of expenses by working 4 hours today. I'd prefer to enjoy a lot of freedom now (at 31) at the expense of achieving total freedom earlier. When I first started reading the forum I saw a lot of criticism about FIREing early and/ or relying on a part-time job. This is even more prevalent in the FIRE community at large. This lead me to believe that members of the forum were exceedingly conservative and had a narrow view focused on what they had personally done. As I read more, I realized that there are a number of forum discussions where part-time work is discussed in a positive light. I also realized the main concern about folks FIREing without enough saved or relying on a part-time job was it was assumed these were their only sources of income. A part-time job is a fragile strategy if it's your only strategy, better to max it out before it fails. Similarly, if you plan to never work again and not develop any hobbies which could become side hustles, FIREing with insufficient funds is a huge issue. It doesn't sound like you're sitting on the couch in between work weeks. It sounds like you could probably find work as a carpenter if your main gig fails. I don't want to speak for everyone, but I feel the general consensus is as long as you're taking a "web of goals" approach you're doing it right.

I also like to remind myself that MMM and Jacob were both really close to achieving FIRE before they started blogging about it. MMM just realized he had enough money saved one day. I think it's a lot harder if you start from 0 when you're already sick of working for the man. The most money I'd ever saved before deciding to pursue FI was $10,000. This was the amount I deemed necessary to quit the job I'd worked towards my entire life (up to that point) and move to a city that I'd never been to before. Even at 1 jacob it's still necessary to save a little over $230,000. It's hard for my brain to wrap itself around that number.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by classical_Liberal »

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

classical_Liberal wrote:BLS says a single persons spend rate average in the US is $33,500.
True, but the global middle class starts at around $12day/capita or $4380/year. So, your numbers could go much higher if you consider yourself to be a citizen of the planet :D

I am somewhat, but not particularly, concerned about maintaining anything resembling a middle-class lifestyle. I think about it more in terms of something like Maslow's hierarchy. In theory, you could start from zero any given day and make your way to self-actualization by dinner time. There's a strict limit to how much money can help you beyond the first two levels of Basic Needs on the hierarchy. So, if/when you have achieved FI, at best you will have covered the first two levels for yourself in perpetuity, thereby freeing yourself to work on the other levels. Compound interest certainly helps, but otherwise there is no reason why a much shorter cycle could not apply.

IOW, there's a lot of freedom to be gained by not being vague about what spending constitutes basic needs and what spending constitutes esteem needs when a phrase like "middle class" is considered or applied to lifestyle.

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classical_Liberal
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by classical_Liberal »

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7Wannabe5
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

classical_Liberal wrote:However, there is a rather large component of "gains" still available in the social and esteem realm. If someone "feels" as if they are financially performing just slightly better than peer group, happiness increases significantly.
Interesting. I have never felt that way, but upon reflection must admit this is likely in good part due to serious old-school sexism at play in my psyche or values system.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by classical_Liberal »

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unemployable
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by unemployable »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:53 pm
Anecdotally, It's very obvious my housing situation is below the standard of living for most of my peers. However, my largest chosen peer group is very interested in outdoor activities and travel. Since I consistently enjoy more outdoor adventures, travel across the US for a month at a time to hike and camp interesting places, I view myself as doing slightly better than that peer group. All of this despite living in substandard housing when compared to those same peers. The internal psychological play is interesting to say the least.
AKA the parable of the Mexican fisherman.

I live very cheaply in a place people take their two weeks a year of vacation to and spend the other 50 weeks of the year dreaming about.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by Jin+Guice »

To bring this full circle, walking in to my part-time place of employment where everyone is well paid and being pretty sure that I work the least, have close to the most $$ stacked and lead one of the more interesting lives makes me feel like I'm doing better than most, even if they all earn more money and drive a bigger truck (very important if you are a southern man) or whatever.

CS
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by CS »

My response probably belongs somewhere higher in the thread, but didn't get to it until now...

Personally, I'd plan an end date to semi-retirement if it is with one specific professional career, versus a rotating series of jobs just to pay the bills. I've spent most of my adult life in semi-retirement mode (but didn't know it as such until reading these blogs). It's great fun when younger, but as I get older and my peers start dying off, my patience for the career I've been going back to falls to zero.

Also, I think the lack of ability to fit into corporate work mode increases in general as one gets older.


@7WB5
I have to second the reduced social fulfillment contribution factor of work when sexism is applied. Women get the 'assumed incompetent' thing way too much.


Edited for grammer
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7Wannabe5
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

classical_Liberal wrote:Anecdotally, It's very obvious my housing situation is below the standard of living for most of my peers. However, my largest chosen peer group is very interested in outdoor activities and travel. Since I consistently enjoy more outdoor adventures, travel across the US for a month at a time to hike and camp interesting places, I view myself as doing slightly better than that peer group. All of this despite living in substandard housing when compared to those same peers. The internal psychological play is interesting to say the least.
To bring this full circle, walking in to my part-time place of employment where everyone is well paid and being pretty sure that I work the least, have close to the most $$ stacked and lead one of the more interesting lives makes me feel like I'm doing better than most, even if they all earn more money and drive a bigger truck (very important if you are a southern man) or whatever.


https://www.npr.org/2013/04/01/17593528 ... nd-less-so

According to the Brookings Institution, there are 3 factors that determine or "signal" membership in the middle-class; cash, credentials and culture. If you are upper-middle class and Gen-X then "interesting" will be one of the primary cultural signals to which you will aspire. I actually winced when I first happened upon Wolitzer's novel. Of course, in my case, being ENTP also contributes to this tendency. My youngest sister who is dead-center Gen-X, also ENTP, and was raised in an extremely "aspirational" peer environment is practically a poster child for interesting life-style. When my Bohemian musician second sister and I partnered up in rare-book business our mission statement was something like "Make just enough money to allow us the freedom to pursue all our other interests."

So, chagrin at being spotted-out as conforming non-conformists put aside, the question becomes does pursuit of full-flung FI or part-time FI correlate better with interesting life? I think arguments could be made either way depending on a number of factors. Obviously, maintenance of class "credentials" of "identity" might be one of these factors. I am a CPA -> I am independently wealthy vs. I am a CPA -> I work part-time at Wal-Mart vs. I am a CPA -> I am holed up in my cabin this winter writing a novel, but in the summer I run my own white-water expedition business.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

Nope. *Having* to work, even part time, does not sound like something I want to partake in forever.

If I had the choice of working FT for another 2-3 years vs even 10-15 more years at PT, I would do the former.

BMF1102
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by BMF1102 »

@2birds - You intend to rely mostly on a large stash invested and a SWR then? I absolutely would like to be to the point where I no longer have to work for someone else either. That said I am content with my work in small bursts and I really enjoy the company of most people I regularly work with.

*Added after intial post- I thought this may come across offensively that is not the intent, I am simply fishing for a summary of your plan. I could probably find that by reading your journal(which I will do) and will do next time before asking a question I can probably find the answer for a with a simple search*

I think for people who have spent a significant amount of time in the corporate 9-5 cubicle type world full time until FI probably makes the most sense.

In my case, union trade member, hours flucuate depending on jobs taken and seasons. So defining full time is tricky, is it 2000 hours a year? Or is it the 490 hours required for a vested pension year? Perhaps the best indicator is how many hours it takes to keep the health insurance, 1560. That being said we can "bank" a year of health insurance hours, which are then withdrawn at 130 hours a month if you do not contribute any hours. What I'm driving at here is that this is never a traditional full time job. It can resemble one at times and I try to avoid those cases (which tend to be less profitable). So with the built in freedom and ease of finding work I'm content with it taking a few years longer. I will be outlining a game plan/ web of goals in my journal soon. Still devising it.

Like many things is it highly subjective and personal and I enjoy hearing others reasons, thoughts and views.
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BMF1102
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by BMF1102 »

@ J+G - Yes I believe there is alot of support for the part-time ERE/ mini vaction doctrine around here as well as large stash w/SWR. Like you said as long as people are going about it with a system/web of goals approach fragility is greatly reduced. I completely understand the hesitance to simply say 4% SWR and you never have to work again or that yes part time work with FU money is a good approach. I will be focusing on maintaining a high savings rate to get to the FI point, it may just take a little longer, or I might take an extended road trip decide I don't want to wait and apply for an inhouse job with 6 figures do the complete 21 day makeover and be out completely alot quicker.

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Bankai
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by Bankai »

I'm with 2birds. Part-time doesn't really solve most of the issues with working. You still have a boss. You still take orders. You still have to be in a certain place, at a certain time and stay for a certain number of hours. Doing, for the most part, what you'd rather not while thinking about what you'd rather do instead. You still can't have sex, drink a beer or randomly start doing pull-ups at work whenever you feel like it. You can't decide on Friday that you want to backpack in the wilderness for a week starting tomorrow. You are still being institutionalised more and more with each passing year. It might certainly work for some people, especially those who enjoy/don't mind external structures, but for me personally, it just moves part of 'suffering' from now into the future. With interest.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by classical_Liberal »

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SustainableHappiness
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by SustainableHappiness »

@Bankai. What you just said implies you need THAT specific part-time job and/or THAT specific part-time job follows the "need to be in a certain place at a certain time" rules. Both of these things are assumptions that I'd challenge and invite you to challenge, because both are not necessarily true.

1) The Internet

2) The same stash that encouraged a person to leave their full-time employment would be almost (or equally) as powerful in motivating them to leave a part-time situation that is no longer palatable as @CL noted, I've already left one type of part-time (freelancing) work because of this

3) the whole "enjoy external structures" thing needs to be broadened to take into account at what level (or # of hours in a week) do you enjoy external structure? I really disliked 40 hours a week, but 1 day is no problem, heck I enjoy it! This also implies your part-time work actually imposes a hard structure on you. In which case, find something new, you've got time to train and make connections!

4) I do everything (sex, beer and pull-ups) you mentioned randomly during the work day regularly (well, I don't day drink often). If you don't work from home, the first one is not recommended, could get awkward. Actually on that note, having a baby reduces your sex-life. Working part-time and from home helps counterbalance this. I think that's a damn good reason not to wait a few years to work less.

oldbeyond
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by oldbeyond »

I personally like my job and thrive on the structure, social opportunities and challenge it provides. I'm not self-directed enough to be able to go without some external structure without losing a lot of positive aspects. I think this runs quite deep in me rather than being a character flaw, but who knows for sure. I do however feel constrained by the amount of work expected of me, and that it detracts from other spheres of my life to an extent that makes for a sub-optimal outcome. So I'm working on reducing hours and crafting my career. Going all out for FI would make my life less balanced pre-FI, and if I then quit my job, also post-FI. Going for FI and then remaining at work would constitute an overbuilt solution*.

*There is of course risk management, but that cuts both ways. Yes, reducing hours will reduce financial capital, but going all out for FI would reduce other forms of capital(social, cultural, health etc). So it's rather about weighing those risks than me being oblivious of them. Income can have a quite low correlation with financial capital, with low volatility.

2Birds1Stone
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by 2Birds1Stone »

BMF1102 wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:39 pm
@2birds - You intend to rely mostly on a large stash invested and a SWR then?

I think for people who have spent a significant amount of time in the corporate 9-5 cubicle type world full time until FI probably makes the most sense.

In my case, union trade member, hours flucuate depending on jobs taken and seasons.

Like many things is it highly subjective and personal and I enjoy hearing others reasons, thoughts and views.
Hey there.

In a nutshell, yes. I'm one of those office types who doesn't really have the option of PT in my current role. My job and low (to most people) spending allows me to save 75-80% of my after tax income. One year of work means I can put away 3-4 years of expenses. If I went and got a PT job, it would be VERY difficult to make even 30-40% of my current hourly rate.

I've placed an emphasis on building out my web of goals, so far it's been a lot more fun than pouring over numbers in a spreadsheet. I still don't have any solid side hustle ideas or things that I could see myself doing while living the sort of ERE life I plan on (slow travel, for at least a few years). So in my situation, working a few extra years genuinely does mean I can live off of 3.5-4% WR in short order. That's not to say that I won't do paid work in the future, or develop skills in my newly found free time that I can barter for money on an occasional basis.

As a union worker such as yourself, I would totally take advantage of the slower season, and work in short bursts while saving enough money to live off of for extended periods without income.

OTCW
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by OTCW »

I will say, the highest hourly rate I ever made was for part time work. $50/hr. Most likely because I only got limited benefits.

BMF1102
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Re: Part-time for life?

Post by BMF1102 »

@2birds1stone - Thank you for a taking the time to reply. I had gone and read through your entire journal as well as Classical_Liberal, Sustainedhappiness, Jin+Guice and am starting Trailblazers. I am impressed by everyones stories!

Yes I will not strive towards a "full time" position that said I will still push towards FI sooner the better, simply because I do not want to "have to" do this line of work when I'm 50. So I guess, No I do not intend to do part-time for life haha
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