Mens Fashion

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Ego
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by Ego »

@ertyu, Now I understand where you are coming from and appreciate it.

For the past few years Mrs. Ego and I have been attending parties and events wearing something akin to costumes. Not full blown Halloween costumes but more like outfits that are on the verge of being over the top for the event. For instance, I will wear my third-hand tux to an Oscars party in a few weeks. Most of the other guy will probably be wearing a dress shirt or Hawaiian and khakis. She's got a few Oscar worthy dresses to choose from. We think of it as being "in character".

I realized now that we do the same thing for work. On the drive to our bi-monthly meetings for the Property Management gig Mrs. Ego often calculates the cost of her outfit and will giggle about how it was less than most women pay for a lipstick or a bra.

I guess our enjoyment of gaming the system overcomes the fact that we have to wear something we wouldn't otherwise wear.

In the end it is all a costume. Even CVS flips and a Refrigiwear jumpsuit. Maybe try embracing the absurdity of it all?

Alphaville
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by Alphaville »

I like to wear a uniform, and for portability and to avoid the need for a washing machine I switched from cotton to synthetics a while ago. Cotton cultivation is generally an environmental clusterfuck, and washing/drying it requires a little extra energy in my experience (and that includes line drying... ever had a pair of jeans frozen in a clothes line?).

On the positive, synthetics wick away moisture from the skin, wash easy, dry fast by just hanging, and tend to repel stains.

Besides deriving from hydrocarbons, the immediate problem with synthetic is the nacho funk of polyester armpit. It deepens and worsens in reuse. In my case it starts to become embarrassing by mid-morning.

So I’ve been gradually migrating towards merino lately. Started with the socks. Pricey, but so far decent value.

Then came the shirts. I basically wear 2 merino tshirts throughout the week that are easily hand washed in a sink or bag and dry fast. Unlike the plastic shirts they don’t smell, or just smell faintly even after days of use.

I wear a separate bicycling merino long-sleeve shirt that lasts the week. I sweat in it, air it for the day, wash it once a week. No smell.

As for the socks, them being my first foray into wool, I bought too many because I thought they would operate like cotton does. Big mistake but worth the tuition.

The trick for merino is to lower the ph of the water with a splash of vinegar, never use any kind of bleach (chlorine obviously but no peroxide either) and to use a simple detergent like sal-suds that’s not alkaline and contains no optical brighteners, etc. Detergent works better than soap because soap is alkaline.

Next step will be merino undies. Not sure how that will work but I’m ready to experiment.
Last edited by Alphaville on Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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C40
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by C40 »

I did want to note something related to the Levi's jeans: even for the same style # (like 541), different washes (colors) of that style number can and do fit slightly different. Sometimes the difference is significant. (if ordering online, I think returns and exchanges work easily for Levis'. An eaven easier option for me has been to go to a Levi's store (has to be a store that is all Levi's, like there are at many outlet malls. Not just a larger store that sells Levi's and many other brands) and they can process the return there immediately with no shipping involved.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by Jin+Guice »

bigato wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:17 pm
http://unwrinkling.com/thoreau-fashion- ... om-walden/
Thoreau lookin' pretty fresh in that pic though...
Thoreau wrote: Thoreau goes on to warn against the danger of focusing on outer change to the neglect of inner and more significant developments, advising, “Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes. If there is not a new man, how can the new clothes be made to fit?… Perhaps we should never procure a new suit, however ragged or dirty the old, until we have so conducted, so enterprised or sailed in some way, that we feel like new men in the old, and that to retain it would be like keeping new wine in old bottles."

This assumes that being better dressed somehow compromises your ability to grow as a person. I agree that if you're going to focus on clothes instead of personal growth or fitness, it's a bad idea. But these things are not mutually exclusive. Attempting to grow in the social/ emotional realm is what lead me to examine my choice of clothes in the first place.

Paul Graham wrote:So if intelligence in itself is not a factor in popularity, why are smart kids so consistently unpopular? The answer, I think, is that they don't really want to be popular.

If someone had told me that at the time, I would have laughed at him. Being unpopular in school makes kids miserable, some of them so miserable that they commit suicide. Telling me that I didn't want to be popular would have seemed like telling someone dying of thirst in a desert that he didn't want a glass of water. Of course I wanted to be popular.

But in fact I didn't, not enough. There was something else I wanted more: to be smart. Not simply to do well in school, though that counted for something, but to design beautiful rockets, or to write well, or to understand how to program computers. In general, to make great things.
I really like the Graham article about nerds posted by @jacob and I think Graham is pretty brilliant in general. However, I think this section is a blind spot of nerds. He's talking about something that most people consider pretty shallow which is popularity in high school. However, I see these reasons get thrown around in discussions about social skills too. Why didn't you nerds bother to learn how to be popular? "Oh, we were too busy doing great things," sounds a lot better than, why didn't you nerds bother to learn communication skills? "Oh, we were too busy doing great things."
Paul Graham wrote:popularity is not something you can do in your spare time, not in the fiercely competitive environment of an American secondary school.
This may be true of high school popularity or advanced social skills, but becoming fashionable (or expressing your style through clothing, if you like) is something that you can do in your spare time.


@theanimal & @Bankai: I think you're both correct it that using the word fashion was a poor choice. It has a negative connotation because of the fashion industry and all that brings to mind.

jacob wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:59 pm
What's being argued in this thread is that the slob style has downsides and that it's therefore worth changing to another style. I think like many other comprehensive and complex constructs, this is easier said than done. Cue Wheaton levels. There's definitely the sentiment from some that "this is too extreme" and "I just don't see the point of changing that much" and from others "that those guys are just lazy and could improve by trying a bit harder" being expressed here. Exactly the same kind of relative judgments we see when it comes to financial habits and execution.
In trying to construct the argument against why this is a Wheaton level type thing, I convinced myself that it's probably a Wheaton level thing. If I was really trying to convince people, I'd realize what was needed was trying to change the mindset and not just a simple presentation of ideas an anecdotes. My MBTI type is ENTP (xNTP really) aka The Debater. I think I'm falling prey to my own enjoyment of arguing at the expense of being very convincing.

ertyu wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:00 am
I probably can't tie a kitten bell round my neck and put chainmail over my dick then head out to get groceries.
Have you considered moving to New Orleans?






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyeTJVU4wVo

ertyu
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by ertyu »

@GJ - citizenships and visas, mate. citizenships and visas.

BookLoverL
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by BookLoverL »

(I know, I know, I'm not a man, but I also like to wear more masculine styles at least some of the time, including some actual men's clothes. So I thought I'd comment here anyway.)

As another INFP I also tend to dress to express my own personal style and feel authentic in myself. I don't care one bit about what's currently fashionable. But I think that whatever your personal style is, you can do it badly or you can do it well.

Personally, my own style tends to centre on sort of practical androgyny, and I've noticed a definite improvement in my social reception now that I've started only wearing the faded-superhero-t-shirt+comfortable-hoodie combo when I'm sitting around at home, and started wearing the slightly more dressy plaid-shirt-with-jacket-or-smart-sweater combo whenever I go out to even a small local social event.

At the last office party I went to, I pushed the boat out, and, since I wasn't in a wearing-a-dress mood at all that day, wore my proper men's suit that I picked up back when I was at uni, along with the smart men's shirt and a skinny tie, and then paired it with a more feminine hairstyle and make-up. So, peak androgyny, and also much less casual. And I felt great about myself wearing it too.

So I don't think that following fashion is necessary, but I do think that if you still need benefits from social connections in your life, having your style look deliberate, well-fitted, and put-together does help.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Jin+Guice wrote: However, I think this section is a blind spot of nerds. He's talking about something that most people consider pretty shallow which is popularity in high school. However, I see these reasons get thrown around in discussions about social skills too. Why didn't you nerds bother to learn how to be popular? "Oh, we were too busy doing great things," sounds a lot better than, why didn't you nerds bother to learn communication skills? "Oh, we were too busy doing great things."
I agree, because I think what sometimes happens is that truly devoted nerds (unlike us "sexy" nerd ENTPs-lol) fail to notice that the people who were so boring in high school are often less boring 20 years later, because experience varies and accumulates. This became very apparent to me due to Rip Van Winkle effect of only dating men under the age of 25 prior to my 20 year marriage and then dating men over the age of 40. Even those who were the worst-of-the-worst in terms of high school/college level boring, for instance Affluent-Frat-Boy-Jock-Who-Has-to-Drink-to-Have-Sex will often be mellowed-out, rumpled-by-random-experience enough to at least make decent dinner conversation with a splash of empathy by the time they are 42.

Alphaville
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by Alphaville »

BookLoverL wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:37 am
So I don't think that following fashion is necessary, but I do think that if you still need benefits from social connections in your life, having your style look deliberate, well-fitted, and put-together does help.
Yes. It projects self-respect, basic competence, plus whatever other attributes the outfit itself might convey (e.g., peak androgyny).

horsewoman
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by horsewoman »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:14 pm
However, I think this section is a blind spot of nerds. He's talking about something that most people consider pretty shallow which is popularity in high school. However, I see these reasons get thrown around in discussions about social skills too. Why didn't you nerds bother to learn how to be popular? "Oh, we were too busy doing great things," sounds a lot better than, why didn't you nerds bother to learn communication skills? "Oh, we were too busy doing great things."
@J+G - because I really don't see the benefit in conforming too much to other peoples ideas how I should be or look like. Gatekeepers? Well I don't care to go through their gates, so why should I conform to their standards? Social circle? I have zero interest in managing a large social circle, and even I found 20+ people in this rural, lightly populated area, who like me the way I am, sharp tongue, unpopular opinions and second hand clothes - warts and all! If I need to dress up for people to like me I have little use for them.

Of course, I need to dress a little different from my "farm garb" for the office or on stage - but the question is, how much effort do you want to put into something, to get what you don't even want to have? What for? Is this really a "blind spot" or rather a case of having one's priorities sorted? Make sure you are clean, somewhat neatly groomed and wear clothes that fit and you feel comfortable in. That's my modus operandi, and it has served me well so far. I've got the jobs I wanted, the guys I wanted, got into the bands I wanted... And I actually still wear a pair of trousers to work that I've already worn during my office apprenticeship in 1999. And have been cutting my own hair since 2004 or so.

I fully recognize that as a female ENTP - "sexy nerd" (@7wb5 lol!!!) with a background in tailoring dressing somewhat appropriately to the occasion may come more naturally to me than to real "nerdy nerds". However, I still maintain that overly stylish/modish clothing is liable to send wrong signals - if you are the kind of person who needs to study this extensively to get it right.... Like @bigato and others I'm repelled by too stylish or dressed up people because I always suspect them of being shallow and too much in love with appearances. I instantly believe that we have little to talk about because their priorities must be very different from mine. Prejudice works both ways.

So if someone is unhappy with how things are (crappy job, no friends, no SO), tweaking some things in his/her appearance and grooming is a worthwhile thing to try. It might bring real results and more happiness. Fitting jeans and a flattering shirt will be enough to accomplish this, probably. Because at what point you simply play a part to be liked/successful/part of it? Is it worth it? This is a really emotional topic for me right now because as my (nerdy, autistic) kid embarks on being a teenager/adult I feel a lot of pressure in steering her right. We often talk about this at the moment, how to fit in while not betraying ones values, one's sense of self? For non-neurotypical people this is a very difficult and important topic, since fitting in was an uphill struggle from the earliest childhood.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by classical_Liberal »

@horsewoman
I think the point we "pro-dressers" are making is there is a difference between spending a shit-ton of time and effort on clothing/appearance and putting in enough effort to "pass muster" in a given social engagement. Over and over again I read on these forums that people have a hard time fitting in, maintaining social connections, getting dates, or jobs, or whatever. Look, I have no problem if someone wants to rebel against "da man", I'm a Gen Xer for god's sake, it's in my DNA! However, social standards are not some individual gatekeeper. Society has created these norms and traditions for whatever reason. One can't both say F society, I don't care what people think, then complain they are excluded in the same breath.

Clothing is one of the first things most people notice about you. If I walk into a wedding reception with an old, oversized metallica tee-shirt and sweatpants, because "this is who I am and what I wear at home". I'm sending the message "I don't want to be here". I really can't complain if people think I'm weird or don't wanna dance with me. If I walk in with the slightest bit of care for the social circumstance, even just nice jeans with a dress shirt and stylish sports coat, I'm acknowledging the event and that I took a bit of effort, like everyone else, to prepare for it. The fact I don't wear a suit like 90% of the men there still shows I'm not really a suit guy, that's enough. Add to this the confidence being dressed in right-fitting, socially appropriate clothing can provide when I walk out the door every day, and I think it's well worth the minimal effort and cost.

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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by jacob »

If clothes are about socialization, then:

Kegan1 (The impulsive mind, childhood): "My dinosaur shirt is my best shirt so I wear it all the time. It has a T-Rex which is my favorite dinosaur!"

Kegan2 (The instrumental mind, teenage years, 14% of adults): "I dress like a punk because I like the music and the style. I'll put on a suit for the wedding but only because I have to. If I wanna wear my combat boots to the interview that's just who I am. Take it or leave it."

Kegan3 (The socialized mind, 56% of adults): "I dress to fit in. I judge my dress and myself according to how people judge my dress. If these pants make me look fat, then I am fat. If this shirt makes me look good, then I am attractive and feel accordingly about myself. Upgrading my wardrobe makes me feel like a new person."

Kegan4 (The self-authoring mind, 30% of adults): "This office wear is just a uniform but I'm not my uniform. I choose to change my uniform according to the circumstances and I have different uniforms for the various functions I fill. I am old enough to see clothes as a tool. Upgrading my wardrobe is like getting a better tool."

Kegan5 (The self-transforming mind, 1% of adults): You're not my fucking khakis. You're the all singing all dancing crap of the world. I choose my outfit according to how I want to relate to other people/want them to relate to each other. (Those Kegan2 fanboys just copy what I do without understanding why I do it.)"

jacob
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by jacob »

Add: FWIW, I think wardrobes would change quite a bit if everybody was forced to start completely from scratch every year.

As someone who insists on wearing everything out, this could just be me projecting.

It could be a very wasteful method but it doesn't have to be. Buying everything from thrift-stores and donating it back again (zero-waste style) would reduce the waste a bit.

ertyu
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by ertyu »

jacob wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:44 pm

Kegan2 (The instrumental mind, teenage years, 14% of adults): "I dress like a punk because I like the music and the style. I'll put on a suit for the wedding but only because I have to. If I wanna wear my combat boots to the interview that's just who I am. Take it or leave it."
Checks out this was exactly me as a teenager, down to how I wore combat boots to a scholarship interview. :lol: :lol: :lol: nostalgia

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Bankai
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by Bankai »

Still seems both sides are talking past each other.

How is:

"You can learn about style in an hour and without spending any more money than you normally would, look much better, feel much more confident and operate in the world more efficiently"
"But spending thousands on flashy outfits to impress/signal is against my nature, I could never do it"

different than:

"You can learn about the principles of FI easily and by making some changes in a few key areas, you can start saving 50%+ of your income and set yourself for bright financial future"
"But eating rice and beans is a sacrifice and I would have no life, I could never do it"

jacob
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by jacob »

@Bankai - They're no different. Each have a ton of inertia thanks to the inherent Wheaton levels of dealing with personal change.
See earlier post viewtopic.php?p=204579#p204579 Insert comments about how simple != easy.

theanimal
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by theanimal »

In hopes of avoiding further confusion, I should note that Level 7 is a joke.

ertyu
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by ertyu »

@Bankai, the difference is that there can be quite a large can of psychological worms under (1), the desire to avoid which drives people to make the "But spending thousands on flashy outfits to impress/signal is against my nature, I could never do it" and related arguments.

Most adults who are unfit and unattractive and don't fit in have usually tried to fix this a number of times and they have failed, regained the weight, built their hopes up then been rejected and humiliated (because the first effort is rarely enough, and just because it took you a lot of inner and outer work to get there doesn't mean others would immediately embrace you with open arms, especially others you have a history with that are invested in keeping you in your place)... There can be A Lot of really painful shit around weight, fitness, appearance, and dress, and it might be easier for some to not try to get their hopes up anymore and to try to not go there. The sentiment is, "I've tried to play that game and it's a fool's errand so fuck that." Learning about style in an hour and applying it might be logistically simple, but it's often the exact opposite of psychologically easy.

horsewoman
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by horsewoman »

@c_l we are absolutely in agreement. Dressing appropriately (at least to some extent) is very important, no question about that. But after you check the basic boxes in this regard, when do you start playacting a role? To what end? I think that this topic triggers me so bad because of being on the spectrum. People like my daughter and I, we have to play-act all the time to fit in and I'm pretty much fed up with neurotypical stereotypes and second guessing myself all the time if I'm conforming to them enough to pass muster. It's utterly exhausting.

Laura Ingalls
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by Laura Ingalls »

jacob wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:22 pm
Add: FWIW, I think wardrobes would change quite a bit if everybody was forced to start completely from scratch every year.

As someone who insists on wearing everything out, this could just be me projecting.

It could be a very wasteful method but it doesn't have to be. Buying everything from thrift-stores and donating it back again (zero-waste style) would reduce the waste a bit.
Starting from zero was stressful. I felt an internal pressure to acquire things that well made, matching each other, and not just random crap. Now seven years later I am back to a more random set up. I probably only still have a third of the clothing I had pre-fire.

BookLoverL
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by BookLoverL »

I'm not convinced there is that much of a difference between the appearance and the money cases - it's true that a lot of people have psychological issues related to appearance, but a lot have psychological issues relating to money as well, as far as I can tell.

I still think it's far more important to make sure the things you are wearing fit well rather than being any one particular style, so if you have your own style, you can absolutely wear that while also making it look decent. But still, if I go to an office/interview/other thing where I'm expected to look professional, out comes the suit jacket. Whereas if I'm going to a party or something I'd go in something more quirky. But either way I get better results if I look like I haven't just thrown on any old ill-fitting nonsense.

T-shirt and jeans can still be well-fitting and make you look very aesthetically pleasant, if you pick one that fits well.

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