Mens Fashion

Simple living, extreme early retirement, being wealthy, ...
jacob
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by jacob »

I forget whether it's been discussed---probably has, but lets say that fashion (fashionable) is but one kind of style and fashionable is to style as temperament is to personality. In that sense, there are different kind of styles, e.g. fashionable, preppy, outdoorsy, hippie, office dilbert, middlemanagement, ... The most popular men's style is "slob".

Each style comes with certain expectations, habits, and levels of execution (skill of carrying said style).

What's being argued in this thread is that the slob style has downsides and that it's therefore worth changing to another style. I think like many other comprehensive and complex constructs, this is easier said than done. Cue Wheaton levels. There's definitely the sentiment from some that "this is too extreme" and "I just don't see the point of changing that much" and from others "that those guys are just lazy and could improve by trying a bit harder" being expressed here. Exactly the same kind of relative judgments we see when it comes to financial habits and execution.

Now... who's gonna make a proper table?

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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by theanimal »

Something I came up quickly.. feel free to poke holes.

Level 0 Wear just about anything. Do not care about appearance. Clothes fill a mandatory role. Clothes aren't clean.
Level 1 ??
Level 2 Clothes are worn for specific action/specific group
Level 3 Clothes are worn for others. Name brand clothing/office attire/stereotypical high fashion
Level 4 Clothes are worn that aesthetically work well together. Clothes are worn to make yourself feel good
Level 5 Clothes are picked that fit. They are merely an accessory and highlight body/face. Can mix and match almost everything from wardrobe and make it work
Level 6 same as 4-5 plus clothes are picked to match complexion
Level 7 Wardrobe is composed of the finest threads in the land. So fine that others can't see them. Body is highlighted even more.


Confidence increases as the scale goes up.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Well, the highest possible level, incorporating and transcending Thoreau, would have to be occupied by Liziqi in this video where she makes herself a beautiful dress from silk harvested from her own worms and hand-dyed with grape skins. I am kind of miffed at bostonimproper for first exposing me to her videos, because the only possible reaction to her standards and skills is "I give up."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A0ylonIRzU



OTOH, the suit which was handcrafted on "How to Make Everything" , although also in the spirit of Thoreau, would not exactly qualify as highest level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=681RjuIGpJA

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Ego
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by Ego »

There is a branch of minimalism that advocates austere self-sufficiency. Train oneself to need or want as little as possible. Require nothing from anyone and rely on no one. Cull everything but absolute necessities.

Fashion, like manners, is for me about unlocking doors I wish to pass through. If I need to wear a clown costume to get through the door and I deem the benefit worth the pain, then pass me the red nose.

I use clowns as the example because I've been selling a lot of high end cosmetics lately. Has anyone seen the shit-ton some women spend on war paint? It is insane. A few weeks ago I found an unopened 1 ounce jar of foundational powder at the bottom of a box of trash from an estate sale. Scanned the upc code and found that it sells for more than three hundred dollars on Amazon.

I remember seeing the Sadhus in India and being impressed by the fact that they had nothing but loin cloths. Some renounce all possessions including the loin cloth. Perhaps we are the loin cloth wearing Sadhus and the al fresco Sadhus arguing the cost-benefit analysis of the strip of cloth.

ertyu
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by ertyu »

I must be an NF, my immediate reaction to this proposed scale was, "but surely the highest level of dress is, because it sparks joy! And allows one to feel authentically congruent with one's real self!! Surely all these purposeful, toll-like approaches to dress are what unevolved minds who are still submitting themselves to job and society do!!! Of course the highest wheaton level must be where the outside reflects the inside, you feel self-actualized and the entire thing glows more than three marie kondos together, c'mon!!!"

In my mind, it would go like this: ERE -> independence -> freedom to dress for self-expression rather than function (including signaling-to-others function).

I find it amusing; pretty much the same essential argument happened in the tattoo thread. People assumed tattoos are about signaling and it's stupid to signal what tattoos signal (or what "cheap tattoos" signal); the most important thing is keeping doors open and tattoos might upset some gatekeepers, that's why tattoos should be avoided. Very few allowed for, "it's not for others, it's for me and it brings me joy because it makes the outside congruent with the inside in a world where the outside must conform to others' expectations because not FI yet." This MBTI thing might have more weight to it than suspected.

Re: ERE guys, clothing/appearance, and dating: one of the things you'd encounter in, for instance, reddit threads full of disgruntled young men is, "women think 80% of men look below average! women so evil superficial cruel rejecting amirite?" My reaction to this has always been, "well, doofus, apply 20% effort and you're automatically well above the pack - you should be rejoicing in this factoid + the homophobia and misogyny that drives many guys to look less attractive than they're capable of." Consistent basic grooming and wearing clothes that fit you (fit your body and your personality) goes a long, long, way at any body type. Might be TMi but, what made me realize this was an attraction to fat girls who dress up.

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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Ego wrote:I use clowns as the example because I've been selling a lot of high end cosmetics lately. Has anyone seen the shit-ton some women spend on war paint? It is insane. A few weeks ago I found an unopened 1 ounce jar of foundational powder at the bottom of a box of trash from an estate sale. Scanned the upc code and found that it sells for more than three hundred dollars on Amazon.
Yeah, it's insane. That's why I've made the controversial argument that if you are going to spend that kind of money on cosmetics, you would be better off investing in aesthetic procedures or dermatologist bills. Even the simple relatively inexpensive stuff like disposable razors to shave your legs adds up over the long run to the extent that if you are certain you want bare legs forever, you might as well invest in laser removal.

I wanted to warn you to be careful if you are going to deal in cosmetics on Amazon. I had a lot of problems with recalls of these kinds of products when I was doing retail arbitrage. You don't want to be the one stuck holding the hot potato when the FDA decides a certain brand of long-lasting mascara may cause blindness when improperly applied.
ertyu wrote:Might be TMi but, what made me realize this was an attraction to fat girls who dress up.
lol- I am often attracted to fat men, but not because they dress up. Usually it's when they have an expansive personality that matches their physique and/or decent shoulders/guns. For instance, I find John Goodman attractive even when he's dressed in plaid flannel. Of course, I think most men look good dressed in plaid flannel, so..?

Anyways, even though I am not NF myself, I very much grok your perspective because most of my female friends have been NF, so that's why I keep advising that NT men should not disrespect women for being concerned with aesthetic. My ENTJ "ex" thought I looked cute when I rode shotgun with him wearing his discarded overalls, but his teenage very NF artist daughter thought he was practically abusing me by encouraging me to dress in that manner and would lecture her father on the matter on my behalf. :lol:

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Ego
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by Ego »

ertyu wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:51 pm
Very few allowed for, "it's not for others, it's for me and it brings me joy because it makes the outside congruent with the inside in a world where the outside must conform to others' expectations because not FI yet.".
1. Well, the methods of expressing that internal/external congruency are all within the realm of the socially acceptable. Correct me if I am wrong but you are not doing foot binding like nineteenth century Chinese woman or cranial deformation like a Mayan. These are socially mediated signals and we are all conforming in one way or another, even in non-conforming conformity.

2. Since these are socially mediated, the need to abide by them does not go away with FI. No matter how rich you are, you are not going to get away with externalizing your internal Mayan king on a daily basis. We are social creatures. Unpaid people will stop socializing with you. Howard Hughes, yadda yadda.

ertyu
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by ertyu »

@ego:

1. I do agree with the idea that no one can act outside of "culture" and even that if they try to, the ways they try are themselves dictated by the overarching culture. I agree with you that being fully and completely original is impossible. That is not where I'm going when I whine about having to conform, though. It's not about trying to be original for me. It's about the fact that now, when I get up on a work day, I must stuff myself in a costume determined by others. It doesn't matter if I'd rather put on 6-dollar CVS rubber flip-flops (which is what i did in college and what i will probably revert to between march and october if given half a chance). I must put on close-toed shoes, in particular, black or brown. It doesn't matter who I am or what I feel like. Maybe I want to wear a ratty tshirt all day because it's soft, it feels nice, and hey, it passes the sniff test. But no: today I must go to work, so it doesn't matter what I want, instead, I must put on a shirt and khakis because the economic necessity of work means I must submit and standardize myself to my employer's specification. And it's not about the flip-slops or the tshirt specifically either, it's that starting first thing in the morning, who I am is systematically erased in the smallest ways. I must do this to myself because economic necessity dictates it.

I don't know why this is so bleak and depressing to me, and I am aware that others might not relate to what the big deal is about having to wear khaki and loafers. You could also say that one can never be fully free in one's clothing (or other) choices because one still functions in a society - I probably can't tie a kitten bell round my neck and put chainmail over my dick then head out to get groceries - FI or not, one must obey rules. I respect that argument and I can't tell you why it's such a big deal that when I go clothes shopping my choices have to be determined by the work-costume and that slowly, I've trained myself out of being in touch with what I truly want and what "sparks joy." Right now, what sparks joy is irrelevant - I must do what I must. Maybe it's the NF - I experience this externally forced conformity as something that alienates me from myself; as one of many small ways in which people are erased in the course of their employment.

2. It is fully possible that if I choose to wear ratty t-shirts and rubber flip-flops on a daily basis (or whatever other outfit/presentation someone might choose - again, this isn't about the particulars), some people will stop socializing with me. And that is fine to be honest. It's a free world, it's their prerogative to socialize with whoever they want to (or not) for whichever reason they want to. It is quite possible that some people choose not to socialize with me right now, too. They take a look at me and they go, "oh, an office Globglogabgalab, I know this guy, boring." Which might very well be true by the way; as a matter of fact, statistically it probably is - most of us are regular shmucks. Tattoos and rubber flip-flops don't do much to change that. But there's something about congruency with my inner self, authenticity if you wish, that's very central and core to what I need to lead a fulfilled life, even if it may mean exclusion from some spaces.

edit: punctuation. today looks like the day of run-on sentences

edit 2: I did an online test. To whom it may concern, I came out as an INFP - NF confirmed :D

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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by jacob »

Women's MBTI styles. Perhaps there's something there there?
https://infpicaroon.tumblr.com/image/143926111955

7Wannabe5
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Pretty accurate. My style is somewhere between INTP look and ENTP look. If I had a penny for every time some old grouchy ESTJ described me as cute but weird... I actually have a very small collection of expensive fashion items which were given to me as gifts by more fancy/conservative types which I pull out when warranted for appropriate costuming. For instance, I was annoyed with myself because I forgot to wear my good watch to a job interview this week, as in "Why do I even keep the damn thing in my minimalist collection if I can't remember to put it on when appropriate?" I also forgot to put on my good earrings for my daughter's wedding.

daylen
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by daylen »

Here are a few [probably biased] correlations I have noticed.

Se ~ appearance first
Si ~ comfort first

Ne ~ more clothes
Ni ~ less clothes

Te ~ function first (ready for anything)
Ti ~ convenience first (minimal preparation)

Fe ~ group style (minimal signalling in given context if not leading it)
Fi ~ personal style (maximal signalling in given context)

----------

Introverts are more likely to wear clothing with subtle labels/logos that signal their values (especially young Fi doms). Extroverts are more likely to dress in bright colors that attract attention.
Last edited by daylen on Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ego
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by Ego »

@ertyu, Now I understand where you are coming from and appreciate it.

For the past few years Mrs. Ego and I have been attending parties and events wearing something akin to costumes. Not full blown Halloween costumes but more like outfits that are on the verge of being over the top for the event. For instance, I will wear my third-hand tux to an Oscars party in a few weeks. Most of the other guy will probably be wearing a dress shirt or Hawaiian and khakis. She's got a few Oscar worthy dresses to choose from. We think of it as being "in character".

I realized now that we do the same thing for work. On the drive to our bi-monthly meetings for the Property Management gig Mrs. Ego often calculates the cost of her outfit and will giggle about how it was less than most women pay for a lipstick or a bra.

I guess our enjoyment of gaming the system overcomes the fact that we have to wear something we wouldn't otherwise wear.

In the end it is all a costume. Even CVS flips and a Refrigiwear jumpsuit. Maybe try embracing the absurdity of it all?

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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by Alphaville »

I like to wear a uniform, and for portability and to avoid the need for a washing machine I switched from cotton to synthetics a while ago. Cotton cultivation is generally an environmental clusterfuck, and washing/drying it requires a little extra energy in my experience (and that includes line drying... ever had a pair of jeans frozen in a clothes line?).

On the positive, synthetics wick away moisture from the skin, wash easy, dry fast by just hanging, and tend to repel stains.

Besides deriving from hydrocarbons, the immediate problem with synthetic is the nacho funk of polyester armpit. It deepens and worsens in reuse. In my case it starts to become embarrassing by mid-morning.

So I’ve been gradually migrating towards merino lately. Started with the socks. Pricey, but so far decent value.

Then came the shirts. I basically wear 2 merino tshirts throughout the week that are easily hand washed in a sink or bag and dry fast. Unlike the plastic shirts they don’t smell, or just smell faintly even after days of use.

I wear a separate bicycling merino long-sleeve shirt that lasts the week. I sweat in it, air it for the day, wash it once a week. No smell.

As for the socks, them being my first foray into wool, I bought too many because I thought they would operate like cotton does. Big mistake but worth the tuition.

The trick for merino is to lower the ph of the water with a splash of vinegar, never use any kind of bleach (chlorine obviously but no peroxide either) and to use a simple detergent like sal-suds that’s not alkaline and contains no optical brighteners, etc. Detergent works better than soap because soap is alkaline.

Next step will be merino undies. Not sure how that will work but I’m ready to experiment.
Last edited by Alphaville on Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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C40
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by C40 »

I did want to note something related to the Levi's jeans: even for the same style # (like 541), different washes (colors) of that style number can and do fit slightly different. Sometimes the difference is significant. (if ordering online, I think returns and exchanges work easily for Levis'. An eaven easier option for me has been to go to a Levi's store (has to be a store that is all Levi's, like there are at many outlet malls. Not just a larger store that sells Levi's and many other brands) and they can process the return there immediately with no shipping involved.

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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by Jin+Guice »

bigato wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:17 pm
http://unwrinkling.com/thoreau-fashion- ... om-walden/
Thoreau lookin' pretty fresh in that pic though...
Thoreau wrote: Thoreau goes on to warn against the danger of focusing on outer change to the neglect of inner and more significant developments, advising, “Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes. If there is not a new man, how can the new clothes be made to fit?… Perhaps we should never procure a new suit, however ragged or dirty the old, until we have so conducted, so enterprised or sailed in some way, that we feel like new men in the old, and that to retain it would be like keeping new wine in old bottles."

This assumes that being better dressed somehow compromises your ability to grow as a person. I agree that if you're going to focus on clothes instead of personal growth or fitness, it's a bad idea. But these things are not mutually exclusive. Attempting to grow in the social/ emotional realm is what lead me to examine my choice of clothes in the first place.

Paul Graham wrote:So if intelligence in itself is not a factor in popularity, why are smart kids so consistently unpopular? The answer, I think, is that they don't really want to be popular.

If someone had told me that at the time, I would have laughed at him. Being unpopular in school makes kids miserable, some of them so miserable that they commit suicide. Telling me that I didn't want to be popular would have seemed like telling someone dying of thirst in a desert that he didn't want a glass of water. Of course I wanted to be popular.

But in fact I didn't, not enough. There was something else I wanted more: to be smart. Not simply to do well in school, though that counted for something, but to design beautiful rockets, or to write well, or to understand how to program computers. In general, to make great things.
I really like the Graham article about nerds posted by @jacob and I think Graham is pretty brilliant in general. However, I think this section is a blind spot of nerds. He's talking about something that most people consider pretty shallow which is popularity in high school. However, I see these reasons get thrown around in discussions about social skills too. Why didn't you nerds bother to learn how to be popular? "Oh, we were too busy doing great things," sounds a lot better than, why didn't you nerds bother to learn communication skills? "Oh, we were too busy doing great things."
Paul Graham wrote:popularity is not something you can do in your spare time, not in the fiercely competitive environment of an American secondary school.
This may be true of high school popularity or advanced social skills, but becoming fashionable (or expressing your style through clothing, if you like) is something that you can do in your spare time.


@theanimal & @Bankai: I think you're both correct it that using the word fashion was a poor choice. It has a negative connotation because of the fashion industry and all that brings to mind.

jacob wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:59 pm
What's being argued in this thread is that the slob style has downsides and that it's therefore worth changing to another style. I think like many other comprehensive and complex constructs, this is easier said than done. Cue Wheaton levels. There's definitely the sentiment from some that "this is too extreme" and "I just don't see the point of changing that much" and from others "that those guys are just lazy and could improve by trying a bit harder" being expressed here. Exactly the same kind of relative judgments we see when it comes to financial habits and execution.
In trying to construct the argument against why this is a Wheaton level type thing, I convinced myself that it's probably a Wheaton level thing. If I was really trying to convince people, I'd realize what was needed was trying to change the mindset and not just a simple presentation of ideas an anecdotes. My MBTI type is ENTP (xNTP really) aka The Debater. I think I'm falling prey to my own enjoyment of arguing at the expense of being very convincing.

ertyu wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:00 am
I probably can't tie a kitten bell round my neck and put chainmail over my dick then head out to get groceries.
Have you considered moving to New Orleans?






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyeTJVU4wVo

ertyu
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by ertyu »

@GJ - citizenships and visas, mate. citizenships and visas.

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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by BookLoverL »

(I know, I know, I'm not a man, but I also like to wear more masculine styles at least some of the time, including some actual men's clothes. So I thought I'd comment here anyway.)

As another INFP I also tend to dress to express my own personal style and feel authentic in myself. I don't care one bit about what's currently fashionable. But I think that whatever your personal style is, you can do it badly or you can do it well.

Personally, my own style tends to centre on sort of practical androgyny, and I've noticed a definite improvement in my social reception now that I've started only wearing the faded-superhero-t-shirt+comfortable-hoodie combo when I'm sitting around at home, and started wearing the slightly more dressy plaid-shirt-with-jacket-or-smart-sweater combo whenever I go out to even a small local social event.

At the last office party I went to, I pushed the boat out, and, since I wasn't in a wearing-a-dress mood at all that day, wore my proper men's suit that I picked up back when I was at uni, along with the smart men's shirt and a skinny tie, and then paired it with a more feminine hairstyle and make-up. So, peak androgyny, and also much less casual. And I felt great about myself wearing it too.

So I don't think that following fashion is necessary, but I do think that if you still need benefits from social connections in your life, having your style look deliberate, well-fitted, and put-together does help.

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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Jin+Guice wrote: However, I think this section is a blind spot of nerds. He's talking about something that most people consider pretty shallow which is popularity in high school. However, I see these reasons get thrown around in discussions about social skills too. Why didn't you nerds bother to learn how to be popular? "Oh, we were too busy doing great things," sounds a lot better than, why didn't you nerds bother to learn communication skills? "Oh, we were too busy doing great things."
I agree, because I think what sometimes happens is that truly devoted nerds (unlike us "sexy" nerd ENTPs-lol) fail to notice that the people who were so boring in high school are often less boring 20 years later, because experience varies and accumulates. This became very apparent to me due to Rip Van Winkle effect of only dating men under the age of 25 prior to my 20 year marriage and then dating men over the age of 40. Even those who were the worst-of-the-worst in terms of high school/college level boring, for instance Affluent-Frat-Boy-Jock-Who-Has-to-Drink-to-Have-Sex will often be mellowed-out, rumpled-by-random-experience enough to at least make decent dinner conversation with a splash of empathy by the time they are 42.

Alphaville
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by Alphaville »

BookLoverL wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:37 am
So I don't think that following fashion is necessary, but I do think that if you still need benefits from social connections in your life, having your style look deliberate, well-fitted, and put-together does help.
Yes. It projects self-respect, basic competence, plus whatever other attributes the outfit itself might convey (e.g., peak androgyny).

horsewoman
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Re: Mens Fashion

Post by horsewoman »

Jin+Guice wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:14 pm
However, I think this section is a blind spot of nerds. He's talking about something that most people consider pretty shallow which is popularity in high school. However, I see these reasons get thrown around in discussions about social skills too. Why didn't you nerds bother to learn how to be popular? "Oh, we were too busy doing great things," sounds a lot better than, why didn't you nerds bother to learn communication skills? "Oh, we were too busy doing great things."
@J+G - because I really don't see the benefit in conforming too much to other peoples ideas how I should be or look like. Gatekeepers? Well I don't care to go through their gates, so why should I conform to their standards? Social circle? I have zero interest in managing a large social circle, and even I found 20+ people in this rural, lightly populated area, who like me the way I am, sharp tongue, unpopular opinions and second hand clothes - warts and all! If I need to dress up for people to like me I have little use for them.

Of course, I need to dress a little different from my "farm garb" for the office or on stage - but the question is, how much effort do you want to put into something, to get what you don't even want to have? What for? Is this really a "blind spot" or rather a case of having one's priorities sorted? Make sure you are clean, somewhat neatly groomed and wear clothes that fit and you feel comfortable in. That's my modus operandi, and it has served me well so far. I've got the jobs I wanted, the guys I wanted, got into the bands I wanted... And I actually still wear a pair of trousers to work that I've already worn during my office apprenticeship in 1999. And have been cutting my own hair since 2004 or so.

I fully recognize that as a female ENTP - "sexy nerd" (@7wb5 lol!!!) with a background in tailoring dressing somewhat appropriately to the occasion may come more naturally to me than to real "nerdy nerds". However, I still maintain that overly stylish/modish clothing is liable to send wrong signals - if you are the kind of person who needs to study this extensively to get it right.... Like @bigato and others I'm repelled by too stylish or dressed up people because I always suspect them of being shallow and too much in love with appearances. I instantly believe that we have little to talk about because their priorities must be very different from mine. Prejudice works both ways.

So if someone is unhappy with how things are (crappy job, no friends, no SO), tweaking some things in his/her appearance and grooming is a worthwhile thing to try. It might bring real results and more happiness. Fitting jeans and a flattering shirt will be enough to accomplish this, probably. Because at what point you simply play a part to be liked/successful/part of it? Is it worth it? This is a really emotional topic for me right now because as my (nerdy, autistic) kid embarks on being a teenager/adult I feel a lot of pressure in steering her right. We often talk about this at the moment, how to fit in while not betraying ones values, one's sense of self? For non-neurotypical people this is a very difficult and important topic, since fitting in was an uphill struggle from the earliest childhood.

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