Mens Fashion

[jacob]

https://gearpatrol.com/2019/04/17/levis ... ing-guide/ <- Guide to all the numbers (501, 505, etc.)

[platypus]

I was disappointed with the Levi's 541s. They fit better than other jeans, but still had to get a pretty loose waist to get a comfortable fit around the thighs. I fit a size 34 waist, but my thighs are 28ish inches.

The best fitting jeans I've found are Urban Star jeans from Costco. They fit comfortably on both my waist and my thighs, and are stretchy enough to squat in. They're around 10 bucks a pair. There's no Costco where I live, so I ask my mom for Costco jeans each year for Christmas.

[theanimal]

541s ended up being a perfect fit for me. They're now my default pants.

[niemand]

There a Levi’s outlet store in walking distance for me. I’ll go check out the 541 next time I’m nearby. I’ve always felt Levi’s don’t fit me well. Also couldn’t understand all their numbers, so gave up on them. Thanks for the link @jacob that’s useless/useful information

If the 541 does fit, I’ll look out for when they go in sale.

This could be the dawn of the cross-continental wannabe ERE uniform

[theanimal]

For anyone who can fit in 511s in size 30x30..I happen to be looking to get rid of a pair. For $10 plus shipping (probably around $10?) you can obtain the look of the quintessential male EREr. Order now and get a free bag of lentils with your purchase!!

[Jin+Guice]

Update:

I've got my mostly full wardrobe which consists of: 3 dress shirts; 2 polo shirts; 2 nice t-shirts; 2 pairs of jeans; 2 pairs of shoes; 2 sweaters; 1 hoodie and 2 peacoats (different colors, had them before I started doing this) and 10 pairs of nice socks (socks didn't last long and are down to ~4 pairs), 1 pair of fancy boots (black), 1 pair of oxfords (technically oxblood, but look pretty brown under most light), 1 pair of running shows (black, fashionable for running shoes), 1 pair of walmart sneakers (burner shoes for the O.R. only, grey to look o.k. with scrubs).

Additional clothing: My additional clothing outnumbers my nice clothing. I have 3 sets of scrubs plus two pairs of shorts I wear under my scrubs. I have a bunch of giant t-shirts I've gotten for free either from a friend who was pruning his closet or from doing live sound (mostly jazzfest) gigs. These shirts are mostly black with a few white ones, I wear them under my scrubs or for when I'm doing live sound. I also have 1 pair of running shorts, 3 synthetic running shirts that I got for free and one old beat up sweater I wear to run in when it's cold. I also have a bunch of slacks and matching suit jackets I've either been given or thrifted. The slacks are all o.k. but most of the suit jackets are ill-fitting. I'll probably eventually turn most of the jackets into costumes and eventually get some tailored suits. I don't have a pressing need for suits and I'm working on changing my body composition, so I'm going to wait on that.



I'd intended to get 1 more dress shirt so I'm still looking. I'm trying to thrift it. Dress shirts are the most complicated to buy, it's tough to find a shirt with even correct shoulder placement and sleeve length, in a color I like that's not made like fucking trash. I'm also adding one more polo shirt and one more nice t-shirt because it's summer half the year here.

My wardrobe is minimalish instead of minimalist, but I can easily double the amount of nice clothes I have in my closet without running out of room. I've found it's helpful to buy backup clothes from thrift stores when I find nice clothing because it prevents me from buying less than ideal clothes when one of them suddenly fails (looking at you crotch holes). It's difficult enough to thrift well-fitting clothes that it's worth doing this.



One challenge of thrifting everything is getting everything to be the right length. This matters most for matching stuff together. Like you don't want to wear a slightly too long dress shirt and a slightly too short suit jacket. On their own they look pretty good, but together they look goofy.

The made to measure shirt I bought was expensive and too big (sleeves too long and shirt too long, but only slightly) and I was too lazy to send it back to get adjustments so now I'm stuck with it. It does seem to be really high quality and fits well enough, but not better than my thrift store/ off the rack shirts. I might try adjusting the measurements and not being lazy one more time once that one wears out, or I might just go for the expense of getting tailored dress shirts.

An added annoyance from wearing nice clothes is that they get dirty and it's super fucking noticeable. I got peanut butter on my white dress shirt and let it sit (stupid) and it took me more than a month of hand/ spot washing and letting it sit in the sun to get the stain (mostly) out.

Another problem has been shoes. I really like oxfords, but I walk a lot. Oxfords wear out easily and the seams are also fragile. I got shoes with a goodyear welt so the soles are replaceable, but I've spent several hundred dollars replacing soles and getting the shoes sewn back together (thankfully I have a great cobbler). I bought boots (redwing), which I like less, but which are much more durable. I bought them used, have had them for 8 months, walked in them a ton, and could restore them to like new condition with some shoe polish in 15 minutes. I wear the oxfords much less frequently now, but I'm still glad I have them.

I am definitely not doing this efficiently. While I'm not keeping up with any fashion trends, there are a few looks and a specific style I'm going for which is very limiting. I'm also trying to learn about stuff, so making annoying mistakes is still useful. I probably spend a total of 4 to 5 additional hours a year researching, dealing with and shopping for clothes, now that I'm trying. The "buy-in" was about 2-3 hours of internet research and 1-2 hours of discussion with friends who sew/ know a lot about clothing.

[classical_Liberal]

Completely agree that dress shirts are almost impossible to thrift. If you are going to wear them, they need to fit or you just look like an ass, IMO. When I used to need these for work, I found a size in a certain off the shelf brand that fits me perfectly, so I have a "go to" off the rack I can always count on. Luckily, if you don't wear them for work, you really only need a couple. Dress shirts are also one thing that I pop a couple of bucks to have dry cleaned. I wear them so rarely it doesn't really add up, and the look of a perfectly pressed and starched dress shirt is multiple levels of style above what an OK iron job can do at home.

Wrt to socks and wearing out. I can not recommend Darn Tough Socks enough. They have styles that are perfect for wear as both casual and dress, so no need to get different kinds. They are not cheap, $16-20 a pair. However, they are BIFL. I've had other wool sock brands that do not hold up nearly as well. I got a couple more pair of DT for christmas and after one wear, I could not tell the difference between the new ones and pairs I've had for multiple years. I accidentally burned a hole in one pair this winter by placing them on a heating register while I was showering to warm them up (it's the little things in life ). They fell down and touched the heating element. I filed a warranty claim, explaining the burn hole and that it was my fault. Darn Tough honored the no questions asked warranty and gave me a website credit for a new pair and free shipping within a few days. Truly superior product and company!

[horsewoman]

This is an oddly interesting thread, probably because of my past in tailoring.
My husband rocks what I lovingly call "the baggy hobo style" and still has a lot of the clothes he wore when we met 17 years ago. He dresses 100% for function and comfort. I tried to sneak in some fitted shirts to show off his fit & lean figure, but they languish in his closet.
Coincidentally, he looks a lot like Jacob (not in face, but in overall figure and style). Both seemed to have attracted ERE minded wifes :) signaling gone right?

[Jin+Guice]

@c_L: Thanks my socks are getting pretty fucked up. I'll order a few pairs of those and see how they work.

@horsewoman: Why did you date a guy who dresses like a hobo? Style is clearly important to you and you obviously know a lot about clothing. I'm not trying to call you out or anything, but there are a lot of (pretty awful) threads about ERE guys having trouble dating and then some resistance in this thread to the idea of putting any effort into what men wear. So, I'm curious as to the story of you and your husband.

Personally, I used to think that paying attention to fashion was awful and for losers. I later realized that, though the fashion industry is pretty awful, that doesn't mean that all fashion is. I also felt my resistance was from sexism/ homophobia (men aren't supposed to care about clothes). Now I don't see owning great clothes as different from owning great tools or a great bike.

[horsewoman]

@horsewoman: Why did you date a guy who dresses like a hobo? Style is clearly important to you and you obviously know a lot about clothing. I'm not trying to call you out or anything, but there are a lot of (pretty awful) threads about ERE guys having trouble dating and then some resistance in this thread to the idea of putting any effort into what men wear. So, I'm curious as to the story of you and your husband.

Hm, good question. Actually I care a lot more about authenticity than about style. Looking back I dated a broad range of guys (looks wise), and most of them were not conventional handsome or extremely stylish. I have very little patience for guys who are vain or take forever in the bathroom to get ready. Basic hygiene (smelly guys are a huge turn-off!) is more important than gelled back hair or an elaborate beard style. Even for myself, I seldom spend more than 5 minutes putting myself together, the only exception are performances/gigs (20 min). Having a good system in place of what type of clothes, make up and hairstyle suits me makes it easy to spend little time on primping with good results.

My husband had never trouble attracting girls because he simply is the way he is, do you know what I mean? It doesn't hurt that he his tall, slim and has a handsome face, but what I really love, is he does not care at all what people think about him. Take me as I am or leave me without regrets - that kind of confidence is very sexy, no matter in which clothing style it is wrapped up.

Which brings us to the part about having trouble dating - he treats me and other women in his life well, there is zero misogyny or patriarchal thinking his mind. I'm the kind of woman who can come on pretty strong, I have my own mind and I'm not afraid of making it known. Insecure guys (for whatever reason) often try to put me "in my place" with any means at their disposal. Which breeds of course strong resentment towards guys who show this kind of behavior, and I know many (most?) women have to deal with shit like this day in day out. DH feels not threatened in his masculinity by having a strong woman at his side, and this is extremely valuable to me. He revels in it, actually.

Therein often lies the crux of guys getting no girlfriends. I think it was @gravytrain who told you (@G+J) that rather than your stylish hairstyle its your open mind that gets you dates. This is a nugget struggling guys should listen to.
The kind of girl who picks a pretty arsehole over the rugged good guy is not worth having. So while basic hygiene and basic attention to clothes ect. does not hurt your case, treating women like actual people and not merely as bodies made to do your bidding (be it in the kitchen or the bedroom) is what attracts the good ones. We live in a very superficial society but there are plenty of people who care for substance, and those are the ones you want to attract if you are not a "mainstream" kind of person for whatever reason.

If you read posts from guys here in longtime relationships with ERE minded woman you will notice that there shines a palpable respect through whenever they mention their wifes/SOs. People like @ego, @jacob, @sclass, @augustus, @ c_l, @2birds, @bankai... and many more. If struggling guys would only be able to get over themselves and listen a) to actual women and b) to guys who manage it, they would find answers. But mostly they get defensive, sprout misogynistic bullshit and turn themselves into victims. VERY attractive (not! See paragraph above).

So, im getting down from my soap box now

Edited to add: I wrote "you" but of course I did not mean @Gin+Juice with my rant. I hope that's obvious but I'm rather safe than sorry I meant the struggling guys.

Edited to add 2: darn, I should not have started the "good guys list" because now after posting further people come to mind who fit the bill. So I need to add to the list again and again. @seppia, @scott2... Sorry to anyone I forgot there are plenty of guys here to learn from in that regard.

[Ego]

I actually think that signaling through fashion can have a negative effect in the overall quality of people one attracts. Like a filter that retains the ones you probably don’t want around in your life.

If the goal is to attract "the one" then fashion must be at least a consideration. In general, good people come from reasonably good families and they care at least a little bit about what those family members think of their prospective mate. Also, they may care about how you will present to their co-workers, bosses, friends from college, mentors and a whole slew of other people. They will probably run though the mental Rolodex of family events and think about how you will fit into those situations. They imagine things like how you will present at their sister's wedding or under the scrutiny of the matriarchal grandmother's ruthless observation. To show up at an important event in something that says, "I don't give a shit about fashion" says to people who do give a shit about fashion that you don't give a shit about them.

If they are a gatekeeper then you run the risk of being left outside the gate.

[Ego]

Certainly not! Bigato, you are about as good as it gets. '

My point is, most people come with family baggage. And work baggage. And friendship baggage. Showing a willingness to help them carry that baggage when they need help encourages them to help as well. To meet halfway if you will. If I must put on a tux for some formal event I would have never attended in my pre-Mrs. Ego life then so be it because I know she's going to put on a Gore-Tex jacket and trudge through the mud with me at some point.

Now I am off to the swap meet to find the elusive Gore-Tex tuxedo.

[7Wannabe5]

I think that for both men and women it's a tool you should have in your bag, but it's not always necessary and can sometimes be counter-productive depending upon context. For instance, I have been stranded up in the affluent suburbs for around 6 months and just returned to affluent university center this week. I attended a concert last night and was immediately struck again by how differently academics and executives dress themselves.

When I am dating in zip code where half the guys who contact me are PhD's, if I show up at the restaurant wearing 2 inch heels and a bit of lipstick, it is highly likely that I will be teetering on the edge of va-va-voom compared to the other women my age on the scene. OTOH, in the affluent suburbs, when I meet Big 3 finance guy for dinner, it is highly likely that I will be the only woman in the room who didn't spend $180 to get her hair done that month.

I would also note that the wealthiest man I know and the grew-up-wealthiest man I know are both pretty much complete disasters on the fashion front. For instance, the grew-up-wealthiest man met me for coffee the other day and he was wearing a beige windbreaker which should have been recycled in the 1980s with a weird large sort of grease stain on it. So, it's important to bear in mind that people who have fully internalized their class status, will often not flaunt it or even bother to make conventional effort.

[jacob]

Style has signal value for good or bad.

There's a range of what people signal (e.g. outdoor person, business professional, athlete, people of walmart, ...) and how conscious/competent they are about it.

It makes a lot of sense that this kind of signalling can be used very deliberately if so desired. For example, people who interview with Zuckerberg probably wear a suit (maybe the "Silicon Valey"-style suit) because they signal they're serious. Zuckerberg wears a grey t-shirt signalling to the hoi polloi that he's so rich that he doesn't need to care; or that he's an enlightened minimalist; or perhaps in reality that this being a $1000 t-shirt that he's really trawling for people who recognize that. (Similar to how an understated luxury watch as opposed to a gold Rolex sends a signal but only to people who recognize it.)

INTJs and NTs in general are almost all about function over form(*) (unless they specialize in clothing), so it's no surprise that people here are pushing back on investing time and effort in stylistic competence and will only grudgingly put on a suit (picture Dilbert hanging himself ironically with his clip-on tie). It's not surprising that the other 85% of the population cares more than the types who care the least. SJs wanna fit in. SPs wanna have fun. NFs wanna express themselves.

(*) Which is why outdoorsy clothing is so popular should a mountain suddenly spring up in the server room.

Therefore, if one wants to relate to those other types, it's worthwhile to make an effort. Alternatively, one can also go the way of "How I found Freedom in an Unfree World" and not make an effort hoping to attract people on the same page. I caught a lot of flack for my choice of clothing in that documentary. I chose it for two reasons. 1) It was hot as hell and we couldn't have the A/C on; but also 2) To send the signal that I'm rich/FIREd/EREd not to care about "professionalized middle class" values anymore. As expected this pushed some people away and drew others in. (You'll see that in all other videos I've made, that I've worn something fairly neutral/business casual.)

Frankly, though, what I think what this thread is really about is the good 'ole: http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html ... and that most here are nerds at heart. We recognize that having style, that is, a socially approved style, would be highly useful, but we just don't want to put in the personal effort to create and maintain it. It just doesn't seem worth it. But here J+G is telling us that it's worthwhile having moved 2+ Wheaton levels ahead on the clothing scale.

[jacob]

... was immediately struck again by how differently academics and executives dress themselves.

I once attended a conference at a closed retreat (French Alps) with attendees that comprised half nuclear engineers and half nuclear accelerator physicists. You could spot which side was which from a mile away. Even the demeanor was different in how people behaved when they were asking questions at the end of a lecture or how they were lecturing.

Academics are a strange breed because they're generally more educated than 99% of the population and more connected and [world]-traveled than most yet their salary incomes suck (compared to what their students often make right out of school). IOW, there can be a bit of a chip on the shoulder effect going on. IIRC https://www.amazon.com/Bobos-Paradise-U ... 0684853787 describes this in detail.

[Jin+Guice]

We can all agree that our culture is too shallow, wasteful and materialistic. Dressing nicely doesn't have to be any of those things. What if the goal is to make the world more aesthetically appealing and those who meet you more likely to hold you in a positive light? To say that you don't care about how you or those around you dress is to claim you are free of cognitive bias and that you don't wish to influence the cognitive bias of those around you.

Aesthetics is an external stimuli. The claim is that nerdy dudes have figured out a way to not respond to/ be influenced by them? Do all of you prefer to hang out in places that are ugly?

Dudes: think about women you are attracted to. How are they usually dressed? Are you more attracted to women who wear more beautiful clothes? How do you feel about women who's style you would describe as "baggy hobo?" Repeat for people you feel are very successful/ look up to.

To show up at an important event in something that says, "I don't give a shit about fashion" says to people who do give a shit about fashion that you don't give a shit about them.

I think that for both men and women it's a tool you should have in your bag, but it's not always necessary and can sometimes be counter-productive depending upon context.

Being able to respond to context is important and the next level of style. This is where you want to start intentionally signaling. Maybe you shouldn't wear a full suit to your date at a drive bar, unless you are trying to signal eccentric weirdo. Maybe you don't want to wear a nice t-shirt and jeans do your job interview, unless you're trying to signal that you don't really need the job.



@horsewoman: Interesting. Thanks for engaging with me on this. I don't mean to pick on you, but as a recovered "nice guy" your description of desirability plays perfectly into the stereotype of how "nice guys" think of themselves. We can both agree that nice guys are actually not that nice because they view women as objects rather than people. IME, nice guys don't view women solely as sex objects and cleaning/ kitchen slaves (though they often want or expect this too/ eventually). They view women as objects needing to be saved from pretty arseholes, gel guys with elaborate style and from themselves. What they fail to do is question what those guys might have that women (people) want and acknowledge that a woman (person) might be capable of making a valid choice for herself, even if they don't understand it. They expect women to adhere to a certain set of aesthetic principles, but are exempt from those principle themselves, because they don't care what other people think and being exempt from those principles is who they authentically are. Nice guys don't always start out as misogynists, but after being "nice" fails them, they turn to the comforts of blaming someone else (misogyny) rather than the pain of self-examination. I guess in this context I view dressing nicely (as well as having hygiene and being fit) as a basic step towards empathy, because it reveals a level of interest and examination about what the other person might want*. It is also possible to still view women (people) as objects and use an improvement in aesthetic and hygienic sensibilities as a way to more effectively attract these objects to you. I think this is what people say they are rebelling against?

I think when women say "nice" they mean what men would call "respectful" and when men say "nice" they mean what women would call "indecisive and boring."

I don't mean to say your DH is a "nice guy" (though he may certainly be a kind man). In dating, professional and social endeavors, confidence is king. He sounds very confident. You can't clothes your way out of a lack of self-confidence. You can't clothes your way out of not having empathy or not listening when someone else talks. Having a certain style can be part of who you are. It can be a way of displaying your authentic self, or your authentic self in a given context, and displaying your confidence in yourself.

Even for myself, I seldom spend more than 5 minutes putting myself together, the only exception are performances/gigs (20 min). Having a good system in place of what type of clothes, make up and hairstyle suits me makes it easy to spend little time on primping with good results.

To me, this is the way to do it. Not to just "not care" but to develop a system that is both efficient and produces the desired results.


*There is a lot of talk about how you dress nicely for others, but, like being fit, I've found that learning about and then wearing nicer clothes benefits me, even before anyone else sees me. I feel more confident and better about myself when I'm dressed nicely (or dressed appropriately for the context of what I'm doing). It does end up taking a modicum of time and effort but it feels closer to exercise or cooking a nice meal for myself than it does to mindless data entry for megacorp.

[theanimal]

I continue to move along with my wardrobe as well and it continues to prove a fruitful endeavor. I continue to receive compliments and have people noticeably checking me out weekly. This didn't happen before. I live in a blue collar town so my style is simple and designed to be similar in style to those in the community. Most of it centers around dark wash jeans/chinos with a plain t shirt or long sleeve T. This is not very different than what I wore prior to undergoing this change but the main difference is that this stuff fits. Most guys wear pants and shirts that you could swim in and I was no different. Now I wear stuff that actually shows what's underneath and highlights my physique.

One thing that isn't being discussed is the confidence that comes with the fact that you know you're dressing well and you know you look good. If I'm dressed like anyone else, I feel like anyone else. But when I dress well (I'm still talking T shirt and jeans) I know I look good and I walk around with a much stronger energy.

Generally, I agree with what Ego says. What you wear is in a way a statement to others about your character/background. Some guys have a very high level of cache like Zuckerberg and high profile figures such as most prominent professional athletes in that they can wear whatever they want and nobody will care/it won't affect their attractiveness. BUT that is not the case for just about everyone else.


Edit: Ah I see G&J posted the same time talking about confidence. THIS is the takeaway.

[Bankai]

Something tells me that this topic would be much less controversial if the word 'fashion' was not used in the title. There seem to be many allergic to it around here:)

@7W5: yeah, dressing appropriately for the occasion is just another skill in the toolbox. As for your super-wealthy friends - they likely wouldn't be where they are financially if they haven't dedicated everything to that goal. At the cost of everything else of course. I can't help but suspect that a more balanced approach might yield better overall results.

Wishing reality away usually doesn't work. People judge everything, all the time, mostly unconsciously.* Clothing is no different but is one of the easiest battles to win. Starting from zero, initial time investment would be something like an hour of reading to 'get' the basics, another 3-4 hours to fix the wardrobe, followed by maybe an extra 15 minutes per quarter while shopping (you'd still be buying, but now you do it deliberately). That's HALF A DAY one-off time investment followed by AN EXTRA HOUR per year going forward. Compare this to the amount of time guys spend shaving... 5 minutes every day for a total of 30 HOURS per year, every year? If you shave every day, or even weekly, but are oblivious to clothing, it just doesn't make any sense as you're allocating your time poorly and getting suboptimal results.

As was mentioned multiple times in this thread, dressing well doesn't have to be more expensive or time-consuming that dressing poorly. In fact, I suspect it's quite the opposite since if the wardrobe is put together well, most things go well with most other things, so choosing an outfit is very straightforward.

It's just puzzling why people who pareto-optimize many different aspects of their lives just blank reject the dressing well part. Especially when they spend more time writing on online forums why they don't care than what it actually would take to sort the thing out.

*they made an experiment where the same guy faked a heart attack on a very busy street. The first time, he immediately had several people around him trying to help him and calling for an ambulance. The same guy, the same place, an hour later, no one lift a finger, people were just passing him by. The difference? He wore a suit the first time and the second time he was dressed like a homeless person.

[7Wannabe5]

IOW, there can be a bit of a chip on the shoulder effect going on.

Oh, definitely. Of course, that's nothing compared to rare book dealers Also why academics like to marry people with money.

How do you feel about women who's style you would describe as "baggy hobo?"

Dude, that's harsh.

Seriously, another problem some of us have beyond being nerds might be the tendency to punish ourselves if/when we slack off and put on a bit of weight, because we greatly disparage the practice of compensating for looking less than ideal naked by spending money on clothes. With me it's part and parcel of a whole range of semi-dysfunctional self-training which also informs me that I can't paint the living room a pretty color until I clean out the clutter in the basement or I can't plant any more flowers in the garden until I weed the squash patch, etc. etc. I keep dysfunctioning in this manner even though I have the skills to pick out some charming clothing/decorate/flower garden for next to nothing and even though I KNOW from experience that my overall functioning is improved if I allow myself to move forward/regroup on all fronts equally, because improved aesthetic is inspiring.

[theanimal]

Lke Bankai, I think there is a confusion here around the term fashion. The word fashion is often thought of as dressing up, or putting on clothes that are in style at a particular time like something hip you'd find in Vogue, GQ or one of the other fashion magazines. That's not what's being advocated here. There isn't one right style, just like there isn't one way to do ERE. It will depend on your personal circumstances. However, there are somewhat universal principles that will form the foundation. Examples of this are fit and color. There are plenty of styles that are timeless which benefit those of us on the ERE path. Look at pictures of James Dean in the 50s then look at the pictures of Ryan Gosling a few pages back. The same outfit 70 years apart. Still works. I could put that together for under $30 and it'd last me years. Many people buy bicycles, pressure cookers, gardening implements etc while pursuing their ERE lifestyle. I don't see purchasing a used pair of jeans that FIT and some $10 t shirts that fit every few years as being any different.

I haven't read the beginning of the thread in a while so if I'm just repeating what others or I have stated before I apologize.