Food and climate change

[Dave]

@Alphaville

I understand, and I'm sorry if it came across that I was saying eating plant-based isn't worthwhile, totally not my intention. The article does point to the benefits, I just wanted to add some nuance to the discussion that these population-wide statements are misleading/inaccurate. That does not at all mean that plant-based eating is meaningless, just that in some cases it means less than is sometimes stated. But of course less of a bad thing is still good, even if it's not as much less as originally thought (if that makes sense )

Congrats and great work, not buying beef anymore is a big move. Lots of interesting substitutes - I really like a lentil Bolognese pasta sauce I found in the No Meat Athlete book (I'm sure there are tons of other ones out there for free), to me tastes just as good as meat sauce versions. I have made a vegan "chili cheese fries" with bulgur and cashew/nooch "cheese" that was surprisingly good. I found/find it helpful to lean on these sorts of recipes in the early/difficult stages of plant-based eating.

Glad the burritos were good .

[Alphaville]

lentil Bolognese […] No Meat Athlete […] cashew/nooch "cheese" that was surprisingly good. […j
Glad the burritos were good .

haha yeah, though i confess i tarted them up with a scoop of cheddar powder from my pandemic supply (since i don't buy cheese anymore for the week).

still, the rest was beans and onions and spinach on a homemade flatbread (was yeasted, so not a tortilla proper).

we eat nooch frequently since the pandemic started, but now with the less-meat regime i'm upping it to daily for the b12. usual consumption is with popcorn, or as ersatz parm with some pastas.

i've attempted veganism before, with serious books and all, plus a neaeby food co-op, but all i got was fat and weak, and i failed. so that no meat athlete book is interesting to me, and will look up in library, thanks!

i got tons of lentils so i'll give the bolognese a try. i'll reciprocate the favor by offering the john cage paté:

permission required to reprint in whole or in part.

dammit, john cage trust!

i have made that before with a lot of black and green pepper, not dijon mustard, and it was great. this was before the internet, when the recipe traveled by word of mouth and could not be found so easily as just clicking here: https://johncage.org/blog/CageRecipes.html (you can read there legally).

anyway he's got other stuff there and i think cooking has improved a lot since the fads of his day. nevertheless he was a great artist and there is his stuff for inspiration. i think his recipes are maybe from the late 70s/80s with the "cuisinart" name for the food processor (thus they were known into the 90s).

and he's got a mushroom paté there also that makes me want to go foraging.

ps- note the miso pesto at bottom of page. intriguing!

[Dave]

Right on, thank you for the share, will check that out!

I've been experimenting with varying degrees of plant-based eating for over 5 years now. I wish I could tell you I have a definitive conclusion, but I've learned a few things that I thought I'd share that you could modulate that may help you prevent your issues with fat gain and weakness. No promises that any of this is backed by anything other than my personal experience.

First, I don't seem to do as well on the truly whole foods version, meaning specifically no oil. Maybe with more retooling I could get there, but maintaining moderate fat intake (can obviously be from nuts/seeds/avocados, but importantly oil) helps me with satiety a lot. This then controls the caloric intake of grains/starches, and thus weight.

Second, I found I feel better with higher levels of protein than are easily obtained eating only whole plant foods. I address this with a combination of 1) a modest amount of animal products, normally on weekends for me (good chance to include those healthy seafoods that meet the intersection of eco-friendly and healthy for you) and 2) vegan protein powder. I don't like the cost ($/g of protein on this is materially elevated from beans, grains, etc.) nor the extra plastic/bag waste that these powders come with (although not as different as you may think from say tofu when adjusted per unit of protein). So it's not an ideal solution. But having 1-2 scoops of protein powder, ~+45g, really helps me in terms of energy/satiety/athletic performance/fat (management).

The downside of the higher protein solution is the longevity research done by Valter Longo claims it's the elevated protein itself that's the (health) issue, not the actual character of the protein. I actually reached out to him to confirm this, hoping that somehow the structure of plant protein would exempt it from those risks (this was a whole other rabbit hole - animal proteins are lower in certain amino acids/the BCAAs [especially leucine, the most important/limiting in hypertrophy], which while helpful for athletics are supposedly worse for for your health). Not so lucky.

Life is messy - tradeoffs (for food, some: environment (with multiple sub categories), animal ethics, personal health, economics, energy, athletics performance, body composition via muscular hypertrophy/fat loss) and all.

[Alphaville]

yeah i do poorly with low protein, i just keep eating and eating to satisfy. but a mix of whole grains and pulses has been helping hold up some. tomorrow i might try the lentil bolognese--im a big pasta e fagioli fan.

i eat all sorts of nuts but i'll be phasing out the non-organic almonds due to pesticide use. i have a daily dose of organic peanuts though, either whole or as butter. plus seeds in my granola.

and i eat plenty oils (olive, avocado, coconut) and butter and not planning to discontinue for now.

i am also stuck with many pounds of whey and many cans of tuna, salmon, sardines, and spam (lol), all stockpiled for pandemic, so it will take a very long time to consume them at this rate. which suits me fine because they expire some time in the next decade.

[white belt]

I've gone down a bit of a rabbit hole reading about livestock feed ratios. I debated whether to put this in the homesteading thread or here, but I'll keep the quail-specific talk in that thread and talk about some more general information here.

I've started reading some of Vaclav Smil's work specifically related to meat production. There are 2 things I'd like to highlight below from one of his papers. I'd love to get hold of his 2000 book Feeding the World: A Challenge for the 21st Century so I may order it since I can't find it in a library. Here's the source I'm looking at that references his book: http://vaclavsmil.com/wp-content/upload ... dr2003.pdf

Typical efficiencies of protein production via animal feeding are thus very wasteful: at least 80 percent and as much as 96 percent of all protein in cereal and leguminous grains fed to animals are not converted to edible protein. Metabolic imperatives dictate that any meat production exploiting mammalian or avian species must be a less efficient way of securing high-quality and easily digestible animal protein than is provided in milk and eggs. Consequently, if the delivery of superior protein were the only objective of animal husbandry, then all high-quality feed should be reserved for dairy cows and laying hens; and the only meat-producing animals that would not compete for arable land with humans would be ruminants, animals that are uniquely adept at converting feed that no other domesticated species can use,raised on grasslands that are not potentially suitable for conversion to crop fields. But people choose to eat specific foodstuffs, not generic nutrients, and their preference for meat causes many environmental disruptions.

Perhaps this is all common knowledge to the well-informed here, but I was only vaguely familiar with the concept of feed conversion efficiency. The last 3 rows in the above chart are particularly interesting. This factors in the waste associated with a yield of meat, because humans cannot consume 100% of animal yield (except in the case of fish <2 inches). There are limitations to this metric because animals that require higher protein feed are going to have the best edible weight FCR and as Smil points out, certain animals like pigs and ruminants can consume food/waste that humans cannot. So from a systems perspective, this is a good starting point but not a be all end all.

I have the following thoughts:
-if one is committed to consuming animal proteins, then milk, fish, and eggs are the clear winners to reducing impact
-fish have very favorable FCR, however this doesn't factor in the environmental costs of converting wetlands to farm fish ponds, water consumption, energy consumption, etc
-there are many other environmental impacts than just energy from feed, see previous point
-these efficiency numbers are based on ideal commercial farming conditions, which aren't very well known for animal welfare and require large scale use of various pharmaceutical compounds to increase growth and reduce disease

[Alphaville]

I've gone down a bit of a rabbit hole reading about livestock feed ratios.

that's helpful data--thanks!

[7Wannabe5]

Here's some more interesting information I happened upon in a course I am taking:




The wider the rectangle the more tons kept out of landfill, the higher the rectangle the more money (energy) saved. One interesting factoid is that if the world's landfills were a country, it would be the #3 emitter of methane, behind China and the U.S. Another interesting factoid is that eating processed food has a certain amount of ecological benefit, because most wastage occurs at consumer end. Trade-offs abound. I am feeling motivated to integrate more of the practices recommended in "The Kitchen Ecosystem."

[Alphaville]

Here's some more interesting information I happened upon in a course I am taking:

im having a problem fully understanding the graph i think because the olive green stuff remains in the imperceptible height spectrum...

what is "diversion potential"?

[7Wannabe5]

@Alphaville:

Diversion potential means keeping it out of landfill. So, for instance, centralized community composting is quite effective at keeping food waste out of landfill, but it doesn’t save nearly as much money/energy as improving expiration date labeling.

[white belt]

Does anyone know where I can find data on the environmental impact of conventionally farmed common fruits and vegetables in the USA? Basically something that shows environmental lifecycle assessment broken down by crop. I know there are wide variations by region, so I'm just looking for ballpark figures.

I'm trying to determine if growing my own microgreens makes sense from an energy/water/carbon perspective compared to say, buying leafy greens from the store.

[theanimal]

I have been looking for something similar without much luck. I'd be curious to see if anyone knows of anything as well.

[Alphaville]

i don't know, but i know roughly that what grows on trees is better than root veg and roots are better than what gets mowed

also i've been to ventura, ca where they grow so much stuff and it's a surreal landscape.

on a separate note, while looking for the no meat athlete book i came across the hilariously titled "meat is for pussies"

https://www.amazon.com/Meat-Pussies-How ... 0062320327

i'll report if/when i have time. [eta: chapter 1 was eloquent and funny. not sure about the actual arguments but whatever]

tonight's dinner is pasta with baby green peas and shallots and butter. peas 9g protein per cup, and i was an idiot not to know this before because i was focusing on "split peas" as if they were a different species.

[eta: it was sooooooo tasty! and satisfying. more peas por favor.]

anyway, end of rant.

i would do the microgreens and not sweat the details because the only energy is the light and not a refrigerated diesel truck from california or from wherever your produce might be grown.

only hurdle i've found researching is the blessed medium which seems pricey/wasteful.

still wanna do it but i need a lazier way.

[Alphaville]

i saw that cod is on sale at various places (i like cod), i assume it's for lent, so i went looking for the carbon fooprint to get an idea.

eventually found this chart. it's made for the uk maket, i'd assume further energy cost of transporting frozen fish to us mountain time zone.

https://healabel.com/carbon-footprint-of-foods

[Alphaville]

the bad news on fishing continue to arrive:

"Is there any type of fish you can actually eat sustainably?"

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... z6mvRbH0fG

tldr: no

goddammit...

[jacob]

Like with SWR, it depends on the amount of fish that is "harvested" from the stock. Given that fisheries have overshot, it stands to reason that the current rate is not sustainable. It's like having lived on a SWR of 12% and drawn down one's savings to 12 years instead preserving capital by withdrawing 3% of 33. The only solution to recover a sustainable amount for the high extraction rate some time in the future is to eat "practically none" right now until fisheries have recovered, i.e. set WR to LESS than SWR while stock capital increases back up to 30. Alternatively, accept that there are/will be far fewer fish and even fewer per human capita than if numbers had been managed, i.e. increase SWR in percentage by reducing the amount of fish eaten to somewhere near zero---this is easy because there will be almost no fish to eat.

tl;dr - Fish are on borrowed time. Go fish-less or learn to appreciate jellyfish instead. There will be plenty of those.

[Alphaville]

yes. this was the quote that kicked me in the guts:

Even the concept of sustainability has been questioned. “The word ‘sustainable’ doesn’t mean anything,” says Daniel Pauly at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. “You can actually overfish sustainably – you can reduce the stock to a tiny fraction of its original abundance and fish the rest sustainably. It’s like cutting an immense forest, but leaving a few trees standing, which you harvest sustainably.” The Canadian cod fishery once yielded 200,000 tonnes a year, for instance. Then industrial fishing quadrupled the catch, collapsing the stock in 1992. It has since recovered somewhat, and now produces around 20,000 tonnes a year – a number that is considered “sustainable”, says Pauly.

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... z6mvcx0829

^the link gets embedded when i use the copy function, so i assume publisher allows fair use with their link

anyway there is a lot more dismal stuff in the article, like how the MSC label (which i trusted) does not account for carbon footprint or animal treatment. ooooof!

anyway, no cod for me this season, even if it's on sale

(ive eaten jellyfish salad at a chinese restaurant. it was edible, but not my favorite... and not a fish)

--

eta: i might look for epa/dha from phytoplankton but looks $$$

[white belt]

eta: i might look for epa/dha from phytoplankton but looks $$$

Finding dietary sources of EPA/DHA outside of fish is the real rub. It doesn’t seem like there are very many viable options. Microalgae shows some promise as a supplement, but the research I’ve read seems a bit inconclusive (EPA/DHA levels seem vary a lot across conditions and species and I’m not sure it scales as a fish replacement). As you know, in my solution space I’m also interested in what I could grow in a homestead environment.

Edit: To clarify, DHA has to come from seafood because it comes from algae. I’m unsure if there are any non-animal sources of EPA. In this case, I’m referring to fish as conventionally farmed/caught fish, compared to say microalgae, phytoplanktons, etc which are also aquatic sources but are different from fish.

[Alphaville]

As you know, in my solution space I’m also interested in what I could grow in a homestead environment.

Edit: To clarify, EPA has to come from seafood because it comes from algae.

yeah, it's the algae that make epa/dha, not the fish which just eat it and send it up the food chain, where we're top predator.

so it makes sense to harvest at the plant level, instead of making fish juice from sea rape. i mean, don't get me wrong, i grew up by the sea and even worked in a fishing boat during my adventurous years, seafood is my favorite food but we've abused the system too far for too long at this point. so. cuts are needed.

as for homestead, you could grow spirulina in a farm, with sufficient sun.

the problem with omega 3/6 is the ratio between them so cutting down on omega 6 fats would add value.

there is also a difficulty sorting out what is the real useful omega 3, because we don't make a lot of epa/dha from ala so we need to eat it somewhere (there is plenty of alpha linolenic acid in crops.)

but really it's plants that make it all. question is "which ones".

so the confusion is where and how to get it because we've been marketed "fish oil!" for decades while militant vegans say "you don't need it" by default and i don't believe either.

i might need to dig a bit to find out as i say bye bye to the holy mackerel.

[white belt]

@Alphaviile

Unfortunately there seems to be wide variation in DHA/EPA content within Spirulina, to the point that one study of 6 commercial spirulina supplements found that only 2 of them had any detectable DHA/EPA (haven’t had time to search for large research reviews yet): https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... Supplement

Maybe there are some studies that delve into DHA/EPA content based on how microalgae is grown, but it seems like there just hasn’t been much research on growing spirulina on a small scale.

And you are right about the challenge with omega 6/omega 3, especially since most plant based proteins are going to be high in omega 6.

[white belt]

Here’s a reference for the variation in EPA content of spirulina by dry mass I’m talking about:

“Concerning the total lipid content, the values fluctuated vastly from 5 to 44% of DM under light-saturated, non-stressed conditions with an EPA content between 1.1 and 7.48% of DM (Rebolloso-Fuentes et al. 2001; Fábregas et al. 2004; Kent et al. 2015; Ma et al. 2016; Paes et al. 2016; Hulatt et al. 2017; Molino et al. 2018). These values resulted in mean lipid and EPA contents of 20.6% and 4.2%, respectively, of DM.”

Source: https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 20-02177-2