Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Simple living, extreme early retirement, being wealthy, ...
AxelHeyst
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

ertyu wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:44 am
Who cares if you monetize it? I mean: is money a *required* yeild for that/those skills? What about skills where money isn't a required/desired yield, how is your relationship with those skills? I wouldn't accuse you of not hustling hard enough, but I would suspect you're doing things you have no/low stoke for. (And putting pressure on skills to monetize or die is a good way to kill stoke, in my experience.) Also, maybe avoid investing effort in skills in areas where the only desired yield is money and the only path to monetization is a diploma.

Jin+Guice
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Jin+Guice »

@AH:

Interesting. Maybe I should try to stop doing everything.

My summary of your method would be: (1) Do what you have to to survive and then (2) Do watchuwanna.

My problem is I like doing a lot of things, and I dunno exactly how to say this but, actually doing the shit it takes to run your life is hard.

Like let's take clothes. I can optimize clothes with the least amount of money and effort no problem. But that's not very WL6. Is it enough to mend my own clothes? Do I need to repair them? Even consuming clothes for a great wardrobe effectively takes a fair amount of research.

So that's its own unidimensional problem. Now how do I balance that against learning how to grow broccoli to the level where I can trade it with local dissatisfied internet moms for coffee? MY GOD MAN, HOW TO EVEN INCLUDE THOSE SECOND ORDER EFFECTS?

AxelHeyst
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

I think it’s at this stage where purpose/values and stoke have to serve as your guidance mechanism. There’s an infinite number of ways you could go about things, as you approach combining things into a system, the number of potential relationships between skills and yields just goes astronomical. Hence why the effort to actually map a WoG is now seeming to me an effort in futility (the attempt was illuminating, but the lesson there was learning how futile the effort would be to actually try to pull off).

So I think first purpose/values has to play a part. What’s the desired shape and feel of your life? Are clothes an important part of your desired lifestyle/mission? (e.g. as a musician maybe your clothing is an important piece of your stagecraft, and also your love life goals, etc)? If so, it’s worth spending time figuring it out and really dialing in your sartorial intuition, maybe learning sewing/mending, if you really dig it maybe you make your own pieces and sell them, etc etc. Clothes/fashion plays a very minimal role in my life, so I just thrift stuff and call it a day, I’m not going to spend any more time on it. Getting “clothes” to L5 is good enough for my life. I think part of the skill of getting to L7 might lie in knowing what stuff to leave at L5, which was sort of my point about the phase 0 essentials and phase 1 “life’s purpose” skills being built around a “column”/core skill that’s aligned with what you want to do with your life.

When I first started thinking about it, I kind of had this idea that it would be fine enough to almost pick skills at random and pursue them, and then stitch their yields/flows together. But that implies that I have no clue what I want to DO with my life, no sense of who I am more than just an accretion of skills with systems thinking glueing it all together. If I do that, then I’ve turned the *method* of ERE into my life’s purpose, as if my only purpose is to serve as a walking demonstration of ERE principles. (Once again I have some of Hristo’s angry screeds (his words) in mind).

Jacob said something when we were trying to make actual WoG’s, that the diagrams didn’t indicate telicity. This is super important to get what he was saying (assuming I do in fact get it). Your life needs a point, a purpose, a set of values, whatever you want to call it. A WoG that either lacks a clear purpose, or is evidently trying to accomplish multiple heterotelic purposes, is a poorly designed WoG/life! This purpose will aid you in selecting the “right” skills to work on. Not that it will make it easy, but without that sense of purpose it’s an impossible task. Without purpose, you might as well pick skillz out of a hat at random.

I suspect this is yet another reason why lots of people stall at 5/6. Figuring out one’s purpose and value system well enough to design a life around it, at a level of sophistication beyond just “FI and freedom baby!”, is exceptionally difficult for many/most people. I suspect one reason there’s this whole discussion is going on is that Jacob is one of those people who has a strong sense of purpose, doesn’t (or didn’t) understand that many people lack this purpose/value driving function in their lives, and so didn’t even consider that people would confuse the methods of ERE for the *point* of one’s life. Hilarity has thus ensued.

I mentioned stoke again. In system dynamics terms, I think purpose is the set point, stoke is the feedback. Maybe some skill makes sense from a Purpose/Values perspective and it all lines up, but when you start doing it it just sucks, you hate it, it is NOT your jam. That’s useful info - maybe you should abandon that thing back to L5, or grit your teeth and get it up over some barrier but then put it on cruise control or something, but it’s obviously not a good fit for something you do day in and out.



Another way to think about Purpose is Story. What’s the story you want to tell yourself about your life? Get that set in your head. Okay now does some skill fit into that story? Is there some other skill that’s more of a stepping stone to fulfilling/embodying that story? Maybe start with that instead.

In a sense, an L6 perspective is “I like this, and I like that, and I like that, I don’t like that”. Its still just chunks, bits of sentences or paragraphs, a bar or two of a song. L7 is the whole song, the whole novel, the whole enchilada.

Once the story/song becomes clear in your head, when it’s always running in the back of your mind and you can bring it to the front of your mind any time you want to zoom in on something but still keep the whole composition in perspective, then making decisions about what to do next gets much clearer.

I think. I’m still working through this stuff and trying to assemble it all into a framework for myself!

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by AxelHeyst »

It occurs to me that the point of FI/semiERE, is to inject enough optionality and agency in your life so that you can refuse any actions that aren’t on-mission, that aren’t a coherent part of your life story. It’s not so much important what exactly you’re doing, as long as you aren’t doing anything that’s irrelevant to your story. No is more powerful than yes here. If you can get to the point of knowing what you want clearly enough, and having the optionality to refuse everything that isn’t part of that, then it doesn’t matter so much what specifically you’re doing because it’s on-mission, on-script, etc.

eta: another metaphor for purpose/values is that they serve as a filter. If your filter is strong, the only things that get through your filter are things you want in your life. As long as your filter is working, you know whatever you’re doing is worth doing.

Qazwer
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Qazwer »

You may want to loop back to Kegan here and think about stages of human development - where do you get your goals from values and meaning - where does that meaning come from
‘3 other people are experienced as sources of internal validation, orientation, or authority
4 the capacity to take responsibility for and ownership of one’s internal authority
5 recognizing commonalities and interdependence with others’

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by jacob »

AxelHeyst wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 2:28 pm
I suspect this is yet another reason why lots of people stall at 5/6. Figuring out one’s purpose and value system well enough to design a life around it, at a level of sophistication beyond just “FI and freedom baby!”, is exceptionally difficult for many/most people.
1) FI is commonly pursued as a negative freedom (freedom-from).
2) Comparative advantage thinking keeps high income earners in the "just make more money"-trap unless something like COVID intervenes.
3) The replacement structure (freedom-to) is never considered.
=> People end up FI with residual baggage having financial freedom from the job they hated but having never considered that their job also gave them something to do (like how old people live longer if they take care of a potted plant) and some structure to fit into (a job title, a cubicle, colleagues) that goes beyond making money but also tying it into the rest of their lives (paying for a family, being an upstanding worker in society). Some will try to replace these structures with the "tourist/sparetime" variant, which results in then "traveling the world, watching shows, ..." but "recreational structures" are too poor/limited to support 24/7 meaning unless you really make an effort to do much more because the market offers for recreational diversions are tailored to something people spend 2 hours per day, 1 day per week, and 2 weeks per year on, approximately.

However I certainly think one can design WL5-7 around having a full time job if that's what wants.

WL5-6 barrier - stop valuing everything in terms of money.
WL6-7 barrier - stop compartmentalizing your activities and consider your living as a whole

I suppose one can even make such concerns meaningful for their own sake. This is not entirely unheard of. Consider e.g. the tea ceremony, an elaborate ritual that's really just making and drinking a cup of tea. Rituals are often done to make the otherwise meaningless stand out, e.g. people in prison make up rituals to bring structure to their lives. People might also create meaning in striving for perfection in an otherwise mundane job.
AxelHeyst wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 2:28 pm
I suspect one reason there’s this whole discussion is going on is that Jacob is one of those people who has a strong sense of purpose, doesn’t (or didn’t) understand that many people lack this purpose/value driving function in their lives, and so didn’t even consider that people would confuse the methods of ERE for the *point* of one’s life. Hilarity has thus ensued.
I'm not really going to judge people's motivations. In the ERE book I did imply that ERE was a tool that would allow people to follow their vision.

I did presume that positive-freedom was innate and that people had [a vision]. ERE around 2010 was mostly visited by eclectic people who didn't fit within the bounds of normal 9-5. They wanted more or different things out of their day than a paycheck.

It was only later when the FIRE movement became a thing and the typical follower changed to "stressed out overpaid techie"---who just "wanted out" and away. Many have no vision beyond freedom-from their job. However, I don't see that as a WL5-7 problem... it can just as easily be a WL1 problem as the careerist retires at age 67 and dies of boredom two years later; or a WL3/4 problem as the only vision becomes one of accumulating ever more money "just in case" to feel the same safety/comfort they get from the benefits package of their job.
Qazwer wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 6:49 pm
You may want to loop back to Kegan here and think about stages of human development - where do you get your goals from values and meaning - where does that meaning come from
‘3 other people are experienced as sources of internal validation, orientation, or authority
4 the capacity to take responsibility for and ownership of one’s internal authority
5 recognizing commonalities and interdependence with others’
Well, that's an interesting way to look at it. There are surely "Frequent Objections" that could be fitted into these stages of developed. Kegan3 could be a barrier of leaving common patterns. The typical example would be "how do I keep my friends when I no longer want to go out to restaurants"... and a lot of similar stuff boils down to feeling adversely judged and not having a self-identity outside one's existing structure (family, job, societal place). Kegan4 should speed you right through WL5-8 because you're doing your own thing and being independent. At WL9+ there's some recognition that this "individualist show" begins to feel limiting and the resolution of that requires Kegan5.

Also see
viewtopic.php?p=240736#p240736
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8103&p=240986#p240983
(These would just be my particular vision for a bigger ERE system, that is, going from "Early Retirement Extreme" to "Emergent Renaissance Ecology". I think the hilarity also obtains from WL9 being enough WLs ahead to be considered "insane" rather than just "extreme".)

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“jacob” wrote: I think the hilarity also obtains from WL9 being enough WLs ahead to be considered "insane" rather than just "extreme".)
I wonder how far behind I am if my thoughts are less that WL9 is insane and more like “not yet gelled as high probability, because other shit still could happen.” For example, the recently increased speciation of seagulls in the U.K. as human landfills greatly increased and then decreased. IOW, global climate change and planetary resource depletion are entirely predictable in general terms at this juncture, but what else might emerge in The Meanwhile, because The Meanwhile is what I feel like I am living in and may die in.

ETA:

Another thing I wonder about is the possibility of alternative ethics to those based on the traditions of the West inherent in the simple math you used in figuring your fair share of planetary dumping rights (not to imply that this simple calculation is representative of entirety of your personal ethics.)This is related to what Harari wrote about the ethics of the founding fathers of the U.S. being based on Christianity. IOW, don’t complex problems require even more complex ethical solutions?

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“daylen” wrote: Such a society is unprecedented so it is safe to assume that no one even knows if a society like this is even feasible without altering four-billion years of evolution
-from Wheaton Levels thread.

I didn’t mean to sound as disagreeable as I think I do upon rereading my own post above. Likely I am not able to add anything constructive. Just giving some shape to my own vague intuition regarding feasibility of rapid alteration to Plan B. Thus increased probability of Unplan C. Something like that.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by daylen »

It would seem to me that some hypocrisy is required in the sense that whatever we do during the finite bootstrapping phase is not it. Whatever it is, it cannot yet co-exist with everything else well enough to grow, yet alone flourish. First the soil must be primed as Nora Bateson might say.

Currently, the soil has plenty of paths towards HOW it might work but what the soil lacks is WHY? The spiritual problem so to speak. In a superflat western culture, everyone has their own spirits... in the form of attentional binds or knotted frames attempting to fill in the void left behind by communal unknotting rituals. So, how can we populate the cultural soil with some common [unknotted] frames?

One direction that might be of interest is "Deep Code", which in my understanding looks deeply into our code to find frames with the potential for becoming common (i.e. the commons). This aligns well with how automation is playing out. Presuming that tech continues to displace workers, the workers that can go deep into going deep will retain their employ-ability status the longest. Giving an incentive to try to learn how to use these frames to go deeply no matter what civilization is doing. Understanding how something like "attention' works to shape our ability to actuate a flow is essential to our ability to initialize flow in a turbulent field.

Imagine the social landscape as a vector field (i.e. with flowing agents). Presses (i.e. Te-Fi and Se-Ni) produce laminar flow through this field, and operators (i.e. Ti-Fe and Ne-Si) produce turbulent flow through this field. Another way to conceptualize this relationship is that presses are operators moving backwards in time via reversed entropy (like electron and positron). Given this dynamic, several other patterns follow to train a "vision-logic" as Wilber might say. In other words, it might be feasible to teach vision-logic or transcendental knowledge that reaches beyond any current discipline and may be treated prior or posterior to any discipline.

Anyway, it would seem that replenishing the commons is necessary for cultivating spirituality which is necessary for anything other than collapse to happen.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@daylen:

Would the Jordan Greenhall blog be good source for learning about deep code?

I comprehend the argument about increased spirituality being necessary to avoid collapse, but...

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by daylen »

@7w5 Yeah, I haven't really looked into it much yet. It just happened to pop up.. sorta like with the spirituality stuff. Not really sure if I was making a point or providing a frame, ha.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by daylen »

The ability to go from "So what?..." to X is the essence of spirituality.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

“daylen” wrote: The ability to go from "So what?..." to X is the essence of spirituality.
That just sounds like love. Sure cure for nihilistic depression being finding a basket full of puppies on your doorstep. I think spirituality also requires reverence or humility. Earth based spirituality can take either posture, but is usually presented in more “basketful of puppies” form to affluent moderns, because we rarely suffer enough to feel reverence.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by daylen »

Right, this is where the commons comes into play, creating something enduring enough to impress reverence. Forming sacred networks that are feared to tread without spirit/love (thus avoiding tangles).

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by jacob »

A trivial example that could also have been posted in the Fixit log. No web of goals here, but an illustration of different modes of thinking when it comes to solving a particular problem.

Problem: The burner on the outdoor grill would not light up. Also, the grate had a rusty spot.

Solutions...
WL5: The grill is pretty old and it was free anyway, so maybe it's time to upgrade it to a better one?
WL6: We'll replace the burner element with a new one and get a replacement grate. That's less than half the price of a new grill.
WL7: Use a pincer and a can of air from the electronics tools to remove the spider nest in the manifold. Flip the grate upside down so the rusty spot is in a place that's never used.

This is a progression from optimized box->getting a yield from a specific box->connecting otherwise unrelated boxes via functionality. WL7 could not have happened w/o multiple capitals at the Coordinate level.

It's also a progression from buying complete solutions->buying parts of the solution->producing the whole solution.

Also,
WL5 requires no understanding of how a burner functions.
WL6 requires knowing that the burner can be replaced.
WL7 requires knowing how the burner works (and knowing which part of the grate is never used---that's probably why it rusted).

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@jacob:

I know the example was meant to be trivial, but one of my current frustrations is that a large proportion of my social circle consists of grouchy old reasonably frugal Midwestern engineer types who would function at average of level 6.5 on the problem you detailed, yet they barely believe in global climate change.

My other related frustration would be that IME code inspectors will rarely allow a Level 7 fix. Therefore, only trivial examples can currently be engineered at Level 7 absent great additional expense in the form of battling bureaucracy. For instance, hack your grill nobody cares. Hack your HVAC, good luck getting certificate of occupancy.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by jacob »

@7wb5 - The question is whether engineers or MrFixit types also function on similar levels when it comes to handling their monies, social relations, resource flows, ...

Any specialist would easily be confused with a WL6 within their own field or hobby as they have specialized in that particular yield.

Qazwer
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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Qazwer »

@7w5 -level 5 does the standard fix on the plumbing
Level 6 creates a Rube Goldberg or ssclass fix
Level 7 does the standard fix on the plumbing because she understands all the systems including codes and knows how inspectors think
Codes and laws are part of the systems

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by Alphaville »

Qazwer wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 10:05 am
@7w5 -level 5 does the standard fix on the plumbing
Level 6 creates a Rube Goldberg or ssclass fix
Level 7 does the standard fix on the plumbing because she understands all the systems including codes and knows how inspectors think
Codes and laws are part of the systems
codes actually make the system more resilient by avoiding tight coupling with individualized non-repeatable kludges... especially when it comes to engaging larger other systems like fire departments or legal/insurance ramifications.

the grill image is a good example of transdisciplinary integration though.

same as using cookery for health + ecological + economic purposes, eg fermenting beans to reduce carbon footprint and spare your guts while saving money on beano purchases. :P

these integrations tend to develop organically through individual practice and tradition plus small innovation/experimentation though, rather than by aiming for an abstract theoretical paradigm.

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Re: Systems!- Level 6 towards 7

Post by jennypenny »

I dunno, I feel like a 7+ might realize when a difficult job is better farmed out to someone in their social circle who's a plumber if said plumber is willing to help because you routinely offer them help in X [insert skill set]. I have the same reaction to the recent posts in Axel Heist's thread. It may seem like being at a 6+ level for every requisite skill is needed to come close to self-sufficiency, but that completely ignores the need/importance/benefit of social capital. Gert-like pursuits make one's world smaller (too small IMO). I'd rather take a plumber friend out to dinner in exchange for helping with a big project than doing it myself and then complaining that my social life is inadequate. It also makes you seem less like a loner/weirdo to others which helps you be seen as part of the group.

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but there still seems to be too much focus on solving for individual problems and placing too much importance on personal development over social development. I agree it's important to learn as much as possible, but I also think that no one is a 7+ unless they have a mental rolodex full of people willing and able to help them with almost any problem that might arise.

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