Sustainable living but no homesteading?

[7Wannabe5]

What percentage of Americans can recognize a potato plant? What percentage of Americans who can recognize a potato plant are bandits? Why would scavenging bandits limit themselves to the garden produce, and not choose to break in your house and steal your food that they will recognize as food?

Another strategy would be to simply buy a book on the topic of edible food you can forage or trap/hunt in your region and how to process. For instance, in my region just knowing how to leach the tannin out of acorns, tap a maple tree, and set a simple cage trap for creatures such as opossums and raccoons could probably allow you to survive for a good while once it is safe to go outside and roam around again. Mmmm, mmm, maple acorn cakes fried in rendered possum grease with a side of dandelion greens prepared with a dash of crab apple vinegar. That's survivin'!

[jacob]

@7 - Currently, probably not that many. Even if 60% of Americans can't find "North" on a map; or think that North Korea exists somewhere around either Scandinavia, Europe or New Foundland, Canada, or think that frying an egg on a pan on a stove is a blogable instagram achievement. Identifying a potato plant or a squirrel under desperate condition is not that hard to learn insofar staying alive becomes a real priority.

The sound of song birds quickly vanished in Italy during the 17th century (Little Ice Age). Learning to hit what you aim at is easy. Hitting what isn't there anymore is very hard. You can't .22LR plink and eat what ain't there anymore. If you distribute all 7.6G humans currently alive on the planet equidistantly on the land surface, we'd be withing eye-sight of each other(*). Ponder than until in sinks in That's how quickly that strategy ends ...

(*) About 140 meters each to the nearest four other people on an evenly distributed square grid.

"Taking to the hills" (while presuming that nobody else is trying to solve the problem of zero-city-inputs with a fun few months of tenting in the woods and starting a fire in five different ways, matches, BIC lighter, magnesium strike, bow drill,... apparently I only know four) is a poor strategy because there are too many others with the same idea and the barrier of entry for "heading to the nearest woods" and not running into the next human within 2 minutes is quite low. Somehow this reminds me of the strategy-crowding of the financial markets. When the theater is on FIRE! (acronym hint hint nudge nudge) ... and the standard exit is that one single door? Yeah ...

Ordinary humans will figure out to eat grass or pets soon enough given enough pressure. They will justify their taking [of your food stuff] with words like "me", "my children", or "my family".

You either need to be sufficiently far away in distance or appearance (look emaciated so don't eat your hidden storage too fast) ... if not ...

[Farm_or]

"Gopher? Anyone?"

All of these survival ideas reminds me of how the native Americans lived. A lot of traps, snares, pit falls, fish traps, wild vegetation and seeds. Of course, there was not millions of them, but there was not millions of deer either (not that I expect that to last long). And they formed small bands and tribes and relied on each other.

And shelter would be the next problem. My understanding of the poor Koreans trying to survive right now have to dig dens into the ground to survive the cold of winter. Firewood is not existing, and you would not want to advertise your location for rivals.

Modern day preppers, in these parts, hoard ammunition at the tops of their lists. Those who already have banded together (religiously) will have a head start on the rest. And they have ways of identifying one of their own from the "others".

An alien species in a safe environment will exponentially reproduce to a point where famine then disease or war controls the population.

Depressing thoughts. I like to plan positively, but having practice in the ways of the renaissance man can be an advantage no matter the situation.

[ThisDinosaur]

If ERE is inspired by permaculture, why is actual permaculture (or at least food production) not a bigger part of it? If food storage is "savings," then a garden is an "investment." Shouldn't we take the dividend opportunity if we have it?

7Wannabe5 had a really interesting insight in another thread about how fattening up for winter is a form of saving. Similarly, a form of investing inside oneself would be skill development. (Like the example from the ERE book about learning to fix a clogged toilet so you don't have to pay a plumber ever again.) So...foraging skill? Learning to eat road kill?

Is there any other set-and-forget approach to supplying yourself with food that doesn't depend on financial markets?

[vexed87]

Thanks Jacob. Makes lots of sense.

@ThisDinosaur, ERE is not inspired by permaculture, it's however oft said by Jacob that permaculturists get ERE because they already apply system thinking to their lives and work. Funnily enough, I have never met another likeable person 'in real life', except permaculturists that truly acknowledge our predicament. Despite trying I have still not met another ERE forum member! I have met one or two guns and land prepper types, who initially peaked my interest, but I soon realised they were too cooky and ignored gaping holes in their survival strategies, despite having them pointed out to them, so I learned not to listen to them too much. More trouble than they were worth!!!

This is the key weakness of the prosper strategy as jacob ellueds to. I've not been able to get buy in for serious moat building activities on a community level, beside sharing tools with friendly neighbours on the street, but I'll keep trying and hope to have more bites when I'm ERE'd and can devote the time to it, or when I'm made redundant due to economic collapse!

[Kriegsspiel]

In other news: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ate-shocks .. s

Looks like this will lead to a lot of people running slower than me. Thanks Trump!

[Riggerjack]

jacob wrote: ↑ In other news: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ate-shocks .. s
Looks like this will lead to a lot of people running slower than me. Thanks Trump

I read the article. Other than disbanding a federal committee of central planners who advise state county and local committees of central planners, so their function can be more central, and planned, I don't see the problem.

I mean

the decision to end the panel was made by staff within the institute’s Community Resilience Program, who "conducted an assessment of the panel and its mission and determined that a national workshop would be a more effective and efficient way to support the goals of the program." She said the decision was made "without influence of any NIST political leadership."

that is what she said, right? They decided that the central planning would be more effective if they stopped involving other levels. I have no problems believing this, because:

Since its creation in 2015, the group has identified potential improvements to building codes, worked on guides for reestablishing cell phone service, and advised municipal utilities on resuming operations after a disaster, among other things.

In the 2 years since this critical service was discovered, they have already:

Identified potential improvements to building codes. Cool, but building codes are already updated on average every 3 years, and each already has a process and bureaucracy for identifying and actually writing and reviewing such code. No need for a federal committee.

Worked on guides for re establishing cell service. And since cell services are provided by cell service companies, who have all the parts, and expertise, the "guide", if it's a good one, will just be a page full of contact information for someone in the engineering dept of each company. Trust me, every cell company has the corresponding contact info for local emergency Management, everywhere they have a tower.

I work in utilities engineering (Telecom). We have plans for all natural disasters. Squirrels? Check. Wind, rain, volcano, mud, earthquakes, tsunami, flood, power outage, check, check, check ad nauseum. Hint, the plan is basically to fix our network, regardless of what did the damage.

Emergency Management is mainly just about logistics. Helping to get the materials and expertise where they need to be, and get the population out of the way, as best possible. Adding a level of federal committee directives is no help. Whether that committee sits in the DC swamp and issues directives, or comes out to meet the locals in person, to hand out directives, hardly seems to be the issue.

But gamma lids. Yup. That's about the best emergency management decision an individual could make.

[7Wannabe5]

(*) About 140 meters each to the nearest four other people on an evenly distributed square grid.

If you subtract desert and high mountain range, it is more like 90 meters, which is roughly equivalent to 2 acres/human. Modern methods inclusive of super-hybrid breeding and factory produced nitrogen fertilizer have increased corn yield/acre 800% since the 1930s. An acre of modern mono-crop corn averages about 15 million kilo-calories, which is enough to feed around 20 people for a year. The average American small farm is around 250 acres, so one farmer could provide enough kilo-calories to feed around 5000 people (in theory, not that simple.)

So, even given reversion to 1930s level yields, one acre in mixed production, could theoretically feed 2 people and 1 guard dog. So, designated farmer couple living on their 4 acre share of habitable land, could feed themselves, their guard dog, few barn cats, and maybe 6 other humans. This would be more possible if good share of non farm acreage inhabited by the 6 other humans fed was devoted to green manure which they made available to farm couple. This model could be theoretically reduced to a grid of 1 acre suburban lots with 2.5 humans/lot, if they were all in near full super-victory garden production. The fact that the suburban homes would take up a disproportionate amount of the acreage could be somewhat compensated for by such measures as raising meat rabbits in the basement,setting up productive aquaponic system in the family room, and turning the 3rd bedroom into a giant pantry-larder, pigeons on roof, etc. etc.

One of the two permaculture projects I am working on is in a city neighborhood with population density of 10 people/acre. No possibility of working model for sustainability without inputs. The other project I am working on is in a county with population density of 1 human/14 acres. The Native American prior to arrival of European settlers population density was about 1 human/600 acres. Highly unlikely my BF and I could survive by foraging on his 12 wooded acres, but you can't see any other humans if you are standing in the middle.

The average cost of rural land in the U.S. is around $3000/acre. The amount of invested capital necessary to provide 1 Jacob income given 3% safe withdrawal rate is approximately $230,000 or approximately 76 acres, which is probably equal to the amount of acreage a modern human could live on by foraging. Coincidence? I think not.

[George the original one]

If you subtract desert and high mountain range, it is more like 90 meters, which is roughly equivalent to 2 acres/human.

What about acreage for fuel? It's gets pretty cold without heat and people really do prefer warm meals...

[7Wannabe5]

@George the original one:

Combo solar rocket mass geothermal heater systems burning corn cobs and lots of cuddling. There are also a few minor other things I left out of the plan, such as roads, public facilities, mining, textile production, etc.

The best recommendation for bottom-up planning, granting all limitations, is that it beats the alternative.

However, the notion that consumers who have little knowledge of modern food production and distribution systems can do much to alter the system for the better simply by making purchases according to code words such as "organic" is rather dubious. Probably it is worse for the eco-system to buy a $5 plastic container of baby organic greens than to buy a $.79 can of spinach, and debatable whether it is better for your health. There is so much waste in the current system, it is difficult to know what might happen under various forced belt-tightening scenarios.

[Farm_or]

And I have said it before, because my farm was certified organic for only six years:

Organic and sustainable are inversely proportional. The lack of chemical control options increases the need for tillage. More tillage= more fuel and worse soil health. Worse soil health=more erosion and more ferilizer...

It would be nice to have a one answer buzz word that we could all support for all situations, but the world is too complicated for that.

[ThisDinosaur]

@Farm_or
Did your organic farm use any kind of intercropping or companion planting? In your experience, do permaculture principles like close spacing to crowd out weeds work at all?

[Farm_or]

No inter-cropping or companion crops. Mono- crops of barley, corn and alfalfa. There was a few more organic dairies in the area buying those. They started having trouble paying their bills and many went broke. This made selling local near impossible and constituted a lot of distance phone conversation and associated shipping expenses.

I am a beginner and learning more about no-till strategies. I have had some success with crowding out weeds with some permaculture principles, as far as I understand that. It's a steep learning curve, but it is catching on as more farmers are attending to details. I've recently joined a soil savers club of other regional farmers trying to do what the traditionalists say can't be done...

[Riggerjack]

@ farm_or, do you have a branch of the tillith society down there? They are very interested in soil building strategies, and may be a help with the learning curve. Or they may be too small scale oriented to be of any use.

. There are also a few minor other things I left out of the plan, such as roads, public facilities, mining, textile production, etc.

And maybe some kind of birth control, so the entire planet doesn't have to be dedicated to just human survival? I did this math back when I was buying my Whidbey property, and decided I was comfortable with buying up woods and growing trees and some deer. Yes, I took more than my fair share, AND I didn't even have the decency to clear it for crops, but since I am only concerned with the next 50 or so years, future generations can clear it after we are gone.

[Farm_or]

I am friends with the local nrcs director and he turned me on to the soil keepers group. I have learned a lot about soil health from a national forum, a few books, a couple of seminars, and one fairly new university educated neighbor. I will have to Google tillith society.

No-till strategies are becoming mainstream in the mid west, parts of the North East, and Southwest. As with any change, there's a lot of myth, opposition, and it becomes political. The strongest opposition is the big time traditionalists that don't want anyone telling them how to do things. But they have both of their hands open when the farm bill money is divvied out.

This area is dominated by the big onion farmers. Everything AG related goes through them first. So I can relate how and why the big AG corporations are taking over. The big guys can press their influence to squeeze the little guys out. "Can't afford to run you're little farm? Just so happens that we are looking for land like yours."

Sorry for the diversion, I have a tendency to do that. Thanks for the suggestion. I will check it out. It is good to have some like minded people around you when you go the road less traveled.

[halfmoon]

@ farm_or, do you have a branch of the tillith society down there? They are very interested in soil building strategies, and may be a help with the learning curve. Or they may be too small scale oriented to be of any use.

. There are also a few minor other things I left out of the plan, such as roads, public facilities, mining, textile production, etc.

And maybe some kind of birth control, so the entire planet doesn't have to be dedicated to just human survival? I did this math back when I was buying my Whidbey property, and decided I was comfortable with buying up woods and growing trees and some deer. Yes, I took more than my fair share, AND I didn't even have the decency to clear it for crops, but since I am only concerned with the next 50 or so years, future generations can clear it after we are gone.

Sorry for quoting all of this, but it expresses exactly how we feel. Nurturing trees and wildlife habitat are imho noble pursuits. If some of the trees bear fruit and nuts, that doesn't hurt either.

I think you might mean Tilth Alliance, though. They're the sustainable/organic folks hereabouts. Googling tillith will just get you some interesting artwork.

[sky]

Growing microgreens for self use adds a lot of $ value which is not taxed. It costs under $4 to grow a tray of greens, which, depending on species, produces just under a pound of fresh greens. The wholesale price of microgreens is about $2 per ounce, the retail perhaps $3 per ounce. A value of about $20 per tray after production costs is a conservative estimate. The greens are fresh and can be consumed the moment you cut them. There are no pesticides, harmful bacteria or other contaminants in the plants, assuming the potting soil has no added contaminants and you follow best practices to prevent mold or bacteria growth. One can plant species such as brassicas (broccoli, kale, cabbage), which have the highest nutrient values for sulforathanes and antioxidants. The waste of producing microgreens is potting soil with organic material (roots) which can be composted and will improve soils. Some growers feed the waste to a vermiculture bin and then reuse the compost to grow microgreens. One can use sunlight if the growing space is isolated from cold and insects, or for a single person's needs, one four foot, four tube fluorescent shop light is sufficient to keep 4 trays growing. Some greens are ready to harvest 7 days after seeding, of which only 3.5 days are under lights, so one can get two harvests per week with one light. The inputs for a tray of microgreens are about a gallon of potting soil (50 cents), and an ounce of seed ($1). Add water, light and the time of the gardener to care for the plants.

[Riggerjack]

I think you might mean Tilth Alliance, though. They're the sustainable/organic folks hereabouts. Googling tillith will just get you some interesting artwork.

Oops. Yeah. What she said. Something like this:

http://www.southwhidbeytilth.org/about.html

[jennypenny]

@Sky -- Do you sell your micro greens? Would you be willing to start a thread on it? I'd like to expand my repertoire of microgreens.

[sky]

I don't sell microgreens, and I am not an expert. I learned from watching youtube videos. Youtuber Coreyscave is very generous with how to videos.

https://www.youtube.com/user/CoreysCave