More on Microbiome

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Ego
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Ego » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:43 am

Chad wrote:Good overview. I'm hitting a good portion of those prebiotics on his list, along with the normal probiotics (yogurt, pickels, kombucha, etc.). I haven't tried some of the ones on your list (bamboo, sprouted beans, and seaweed).
How are you doing the kombucha? My mom used to keep one in a bowl on top of the fridge and take a shot doily.

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Chad
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Chad » Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:52 am

I'm doing it the non-ERE way. I buy it:

http://synergydrinks.com/index.php/prod ... d-kombucha

I haven't gotten around to trying to make it myself. The tea is slightly sweet, but doesn't have a ton of sugar. It's kind of a treat for myself 1-3 times a week.

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Chad
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Chad » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:26 pm

Ego wrote:First do harm. Infecting brain tumors with fecal bacteria causes the immune system to attack them.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/ ... -the-brain
Shame they attacked that doctor. Having been in that exact same situation with my mother I don't think the doctor did anything wrong. The patient's family, on the other hand, is definitely in the wrong for attacking him after the procedure failed.

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jennypenny
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by jennypenny » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:10 pm

I'm always afraid to click on the links in this thread. ;)

Do you grow your own sprouts?

Most probiotics aren't safe for celiacs (natural or supplements), especially if they're told to stay away from lactose as well. It's a weird problem that I haven't been able to solve adequately.

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Chad
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Chad » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:27 pm

jennypenny wrote:
Most probiotics aren't safe for celiacs (natural or supplements), especially if they're told to stay away from lactose as well. It's a weird problem that I haven't been able to solve adequately.
Are most of the prebiotics safe for you? I hope so.

On a side note, I heard on the FoundMyFitness podcast that fish oil has been shown to increase the good bacteria. Unfortunately, it's been a while, so I don't remember the exact podcast. But, she is a Ph.d and I know it was either her or one of the scientists she has one that said it.

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Ego
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Ego » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:41 pm

jennypenny wrote:
Do you grow your own sprouts?
Yeah, I just soak them overnight then let them sit at room temp for 24-36 hours. They begin to grow tails. I use very few. Maybe a small handful. My goal is a wide variety of different fibers. Since they're going into the vita-mush I don't really have to worry too much about taste.

I didn't know that celiacs can't do probiotics. Maybe you can supplement, ahem, at the other end of the system with some borrowed bugs. ;)

Chad wrote:On a side note, I heard on the FoundMyFitness podcast that fish oil has been shown to increase the good bacteria. Unfortunately, it's been a while, so I don't remember the exact podcast. But, she is a Ph.d and I know it was either her or one of the scientists she has one that said it.
I read the same thing in several different studies. I try to get omega 3s from ground flax seeds but now that we're back in civilization I think I'll also try the algae grown omega 3s. But they're expensive.

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jennypenny
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by jennypenny » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:52 pm

Ego wrote: Maybe you can supplement, ahem, at the other end of the system with some borrowed bugs. ;)
Ha! Not likely. :P

The few probiotics that are safe don't seem to be as effective. I upgraded to the liquid fish oil for my smoothies. Expensive, but I notice a difference.

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Ego
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Ego » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:10 pm

jennypenny wrote: Ha! Not likely. :P
Aw come on. Somebody here has to go first.

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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by jennypenny » Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:28 pm

not it
Last edited by jennypenny on Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ego
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Ego » Thu Dec 10, 2015 10:11 pm

Just happened to see this today from Elena Verdú. Apparently she is the person to watch for the latest on celiacs and microbiome:

http://www.gutmicrobiotawatch.org/en/20 ... c-disease/

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Ego
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Ego » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:28 am

GandK wrote: We already have a vague sense that we should eat better and avoid GM foods and pesticides. It's tough (impossible?) to otherwise translate this information into concrete steps.
Nutritionfacts is doing a series on microbiome. He outlines the enterotypes in this video and compares African-Americans to native Africans.

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/whats-y ... nterotype/

Then he explains how to change your enterotypes in this one.

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-to- ... enterotype

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterotype

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jennypenny
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by jennypenny » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:31 pm

I get what he's saying, but I have trouble reconciling that with the fact that many people (myself included) are much healthier on a paleo/lc/animal protein diet. I suspect that people who watch their diet enough to choose one and stick with it probably eat better overall even if their diet is full of animal protein, but still ... there has to be more to it than what he says.

The part where he says that our gut flora shifts quickly between the two diets was interesting. Maybe they'll find that the trick is to eat like we used to with IF/vegetarian grazing interspersed with protein gorges.

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Dragline
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Dragline » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:52 pm

Well, you have to understand that the purpose of the nutritionfacts site is to encourage vegetarian or vegan eating habits, so all the research described is cherry-picked in that direction. The "cure" for most everything there is to "eat only plants and don't ever eat meat." Even to the point of recommending supplements over real food to deal with the likely nutrient deficiencies of such a diet that even Gregor acknowledges -- if you look close enough.

It's too bad they are not up front about it and just call the site "The Benefits of Plant-Based Diets" or something along those lines.

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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by jennypenny » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:57 pm

I wonder if the differences in gut flora he talked about in those videos are just a correlation and not the cause of diseases like colon cancer. Like everyone else I'm sure, I've known several people who've succumbed to colon cancer including DH's BF last year. Some were heavy, some thin; some were active, some not; some were drinkers or smokers, and some weren't. The only commonality among them was that they all had desk jobs. Makes me wonder if it's not the animal protein itself, but that we're not built to eat meat and sit all day. Maybe it's the combination of the two that's deadly.

@Dr. Ego--So what's the recommendation when someone is on antibiotics? I'm on another three-week stint and my stomach will be a wreck by the end of it.

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GandK
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by GandK » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:10 pm

@Ego: thanks for the links. I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of this.

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Ego
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Ego » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:27 pm

jennypenny wrote: @Dr. Ego--So what's the recommendation when someone is on antibiotics? I'm on another three-week stint and my stomach will be a wreck by the end of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6RBfoITbls ;)
Dragline wrote:Even to the point of recommending supplements over real food to deal with the likely nutrient deficiencies of such a diet that even Gregor acknowledges -- if you look close enough.

It's too bad they are not up front about it and just call the site "The Benefits of Plant-Based Diets" or something along those lines.
He was interviewed by Dr. Mercola yesterday and spoke about this. His day job is the Director of Public Health for the Humane Society but the site is a labor of love funded like wikipedia.

https://youtu.be/ZjH-sSD65M8?t=21m36s

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jennypenny
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by jennypenny » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:37 pm

Ego wrote:
jennypenny wrote: @Dr. Ego--So what's the recommendation when someone is on antibiotics? I'm on another three-week stint and my stomach will be a wreck by the end of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6RBfoITbls ;)
:shock:

So. Wrong.

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Dragline
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Dragline » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:41 am

Ego wrote:
He was interviewed by Dr. Mercola yesterday and spoke about this. His day job is the Director of Public Health for the Humane Society but the site is a labor of love funded like wikipedia.
Um. no. He is funded by this foundation: http://www.raschfoundation.org/about/

Essentially some very wealthy people with very specific ideas and goals. Not unlike the Koch brothers, but with a different focus.

I do not mind their support or their perspective. What is disturbing is how they hide their identity and their goals behind a number of links. That you think their funding is like "wikipedia" illustrates the level of deception. Classic Eddie Bernays type stuff.

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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Crazylemon » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:00 am

jennypenny wrote:
Ego wrote:
jennypenny wrote: @Dr. Ego--So what's the recommendation when someone is on antibiotics? I'm on another three-week stint and my stomach will be a wreck by the end of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6RBfoITbls ;)
:shock:

So. Wrong.
Can't say I can advocate for what the video suggests. But we do use faecal transplants for people with certain infections. (as like a 3rd line option although tbh that is largely due to gross factor/cost than anything else). Although not with 'pure' donors. Best match is family that share the same environment as the patient normally. Failing that tends to be the lab staff. UK doesn't pay $40 a poop!

Anything beyond that sort of narrow window is a little 'far out' for now. Not that it isn't interesting.

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Ego
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Ego » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:39 am

Dragline wrote:
Ego wrote:
His day job is the Director of Public Health for the Humane Society but the site is a labor of love funded like wikipedia.
Um. no. He is funded by this foundation: http://www.raschfoundation.org/about/
Like the Kock brothers. Hum. What would John Locke call that?

http://nutritionfacts.org/faq

Then how do the bills get paid? The Jesse and Julie Rasch Foundation provided the critical start-up seed money and expertise to get us off the ground, but now NutritionFacts.org runs strictly on the NPR or Wikipedia model of accepting donations from users who appreciate the content.


That said, I agree that he is biased toward a plant based approach and away from meat. In my opinion does a good job of checking his bias. For instance he did a series on how too much soy (the typical meat substitute for vegetarians) is not good.

You seem to be suggesting that something in those videos is untrue. Granted, he is piecing together new research so it is not the whole picture. Which he says.

From my perspective it makes sense. There seems to me to be a high correlation between the amount of meat consumed and incidence of certain diseases. I could be wrong. As far as I know, the research suggests that I am not.

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Dragline
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Dragline » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:25 am

This is what I call the "Forks over Knives" fallacy, which erroneously equates the consumption of any animal foods at all with everything that is wrong in Western diets, without even attempting to remove the confounding factors of food processing and the quantities of the allegedly evil food being consumed.

Dr. Gregor actually admits the fundamental problem with no-meat diets, although he buries it on his site:

"There are two vitamins not available in plants: vitamins D and B12. There is a serious risk of B12 deficiency (see also here, here, here, here, here) if no supplements or B12-fortified foods are consumed, a particular danger for pregnant and breastfeeding mothers and their infants (see also here). It can lead to Vegetarian’s Myelopathy, paralysis, a variety of other problems, thickened arteries, and can shorten one’s lifespan. Two other nutrients to keep an eye on are iodine – which is harmful in too great or too small amounts (it is especially important during pregnancy, and can be found in sea vegetables), and zinc. Also recommended are yeast- or algae-based long chain omega 3 fatty acids. Rare genetic disorders may also require special supplementation." From: http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/plant-based-diets/

Then he confounding asserts that nutrients should be obtained from foods, except that you need supplements to account for ones you'll be lacking because he told you not to eat the foods that contain them. These kind of mental gymnastics make little sense unless there is another agenda besides human nutrition. Which is fine to have, but misleading to not admit it up front.

Absent his agenda, his conclusion should be the same as Michael Pollan's: "Eat real food, mostly plants and not too much" -- not "don't ever eat some of the things that contain what your body needs and take pills instead."

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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Slevin » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:29 pm

Just read an article about a guy claiming he will fight obesity and disease using genetically engineered E-coli. Now, as we can tell from above, we generally know very little about how the microbiome as a whole works... But some random guy thinks he can just go out there and genetically engineer bacteria into solving a complex problem. How could this ever go wrong ! :roll:

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Ego
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Ego » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:48 am

Slevin wrote:Just read an article about a guy claiming he will fight obesity and disease using genetically engineered E-coli. Now, as we can tell from above, we generally know very little about how the microbiome as a whole works... But some random guy thinks he can just go out there and genetically engineer bacteria into solving a complex problem. How could this ever go wrong ! :roll:

Quote:
“We want to use a genetically engineered E. coli cell to sense the chemicals that signal gut disturbances linked with obesity,” Tabor says, “and then deliver beneficial molecules to prevent weight gain.”

Symptom-abatement has its place. I believe this is not the place. There are situations where removing the symptom increases the cause. Beware of those with good intentions.

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Ego
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Ego » Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:26 pm

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/12/ ... s-obesity/

In a series of experiments in mice, researchers found that a common drug used to treat psychiatric illnesses, including autism and bipolar disorder, alters the gut microbial community. Those changes caused the mice to burn fewer calories while resting and gain weight, researchers report in EBioMedicine. The finding, which lines up with weight gain seen in patients, suggests that drugs other than antibiotics can easily mess with a person’s microbes, which in turn profoundly influence metabolism, weight, and overall health.

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Ego
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Re: More on Microbiome

Post by Ego » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:25 pm

Ubiome normally charges $89 for their microbiome sequencing test kit but they have a special right now, three kits for $89. $29.33 each. It expires on Friday at midnight.

http://www.ubiomeblog.com/seasons-greet ... it-for-89/

Would anyone like to share a kit? I only need one. I can mail the other two to forum members in the US. You can send me a check/paypal/money order after you get the kit.

The posting on their blog states that the kits can be shared so I am assuming they would allow us to create three individual accounts. I've sent them a message to clarify. I won't buy it until I know for sure.

Anyone who wants in can post here.

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