A comment on S_W's journal prompted this.
When people first discover ERE, they focus on how difficult the financial part seems. When you read the journals though, it seems like the financial part is usually the easiest to address and developing the other skills can be more difficult. I wonder why that is? Or do I have that wrong?
(This isn't a knock on your accomplishments S_W, just an observation based on your comment.)
Is the financial part of ERE easier, even though it seems more difficult?
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Spartan_Warrior
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No offense taken. I totally agree. The financial side does seem much easier once the ball gets rolling. I can't generalize on this topic, but for me I think I'm a lazy, comfort-seeking person at heart. (I merely force myself to be adventurous from time to time. 
So for me it's probably the actual labor involved. It takes far less labor to make a spreadsheet, track expenses, etc. At the heart of it, "not spending" isn't laborious. Whereas learning new skills like cooking cheaply, gardening, even investing (though this blurs the line between the finance side and skillset side), all require much more physical/intellectual/emotional effort.
May also have to do with the capacity for labor being rather stretched already for a working person. When I actually retire I see myself having more time to worry about developing skills.
So for me it's probably the actual labor involved. It takes far less labor to make a spreadsheet, track expenses, etc. At the heart of it, "not spending" isn't laborious. Whereas learning new skills like cooking cheaply, gardening, even investing (though this blurs the line between the finance side and skillset side), all require much more physical/intellectual/emotional effort.May also have to do with the capacity for labor being rather stretched already for a working person. When I actually retire I see myself having more time to worry about developing skills.
To me it went so: only when I realised the complete ere-impact, thus not only the financial part, but also the thinking under another angle, I realised how much in life is superflous and what is left I could mostly do by myself. And so reduce spending to great lengths.
Is it the changing of one's attitude that makes the non-financial part more difficult?
Is it the changing of one's attitude that makes the non-financial part more difficult?
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George the original one
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bigato: "But the thing about INTJ's is that they are sometimes obsessive about the skills they want to conquer, even when sometimes the wise thing to do would be stop at 80% and redirect our efforts elsewhere." This is very true, I should strive to stick to the Pareto 80:20.
But often I find myself thinking "You can do that when you're retired." And so everything that doesn't help me achieve ERE gets pushed to the 3rd or 4th burner... Not sure if it's laziness or extreme postponement of gratification.
It's like I'm insisting that I live an unbalanced life until I can finally conquer this early retirement problem.
__________
Outside of basic math and self discipline, does ERE truly require any other skills?
I'd argue that cooking, gardening, repair, etc would probably increase the standard of the retired life but are not necessary.
But often I find myself thinking "You can do that when you're retired." And so everything that doesn't help me achieve ERE gets pushed to the 3rd or 4th burner... Not sure if it's laziness or extreme postponement of gratification.
It's like I'm insisting that I live an unbalanced life until I can finally conquer this early retirement problem.
__________
Outside of basic math and self discipline, does ERE truly require any other skills?
I'd argue that cooking, gardening, repair, etc would probably increase the standard of the retired life but are not necessary.
I think the connection between (non-work related) skills and finances is understood and discussed more here than any other personal finance site I've ever seen. People do discuss them regularly in their journals. They are definitely harder to quantify or to quickly explain progress. Many of the journal keepers have lists of skills goals (like Spartan) or often share skill-related updates (Riparian, M741, etc..)
I also do expect my focus on skills to increase after FI. You could probably put ERE progress into some common phases, something like:
1 - Enlightenment
2 - Reducing expenses. (Mostly simplifying, some skill improvements)
3 - Analyzing numbers. Getting better investment returns, deciding when to quit. Waiting.
4 - Focusing more and more on skills, fun, etc.
It's important that we don't wait until after #3 is done to start on #4
I also do expect my focus on skills to increase after FI. You could probably put ERE progress into some common phases, something like:
1 - Enlightenment
2 - Reducing expenses. (Mostly simplifying, some skill improvements)
3 - Analyzing numbers. Getting better investment returns, deciding when to quit. Waiting.
4 - Focusing more and more on skills, fun, etc.
It's important that we don't wait until after #3 is done to start on #4
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jacob
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I think it's selection bias. There's a big recruitment draw from highly paid technical professionals, where the numbers and the dollars are the easy part.
If the draw came mainly from permaculturists, simple living adherents, poets, etc. doing the math and increasing income would be the hard part.
I think it's good to reread
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wiki/ ... Principles out of which financials is only one component.
Some times I think this forum focuses too much on the money side of things, that is, using money, typically a high income, to compensate for the rest of the principles. Also there's often too much focus on the early time as if there was some kind of goal line to be reached as soon as possible lest it not be "extremely early". I think if seen that way, the event of reaching the goal line will be too much of a culture shock. ERE is a lifestyle. Lifestyles are not changed simply by reaching some magic number on a computer.
Of course people are free to do what they want, but if we really have to talk about ERE as a definition/criteria, I think age and FI are minor parts. Taken alone these do not create much in terms of resilience, robustness, serendipity, opportunity, and efficiency.
To give an extreme example, someone could earn $150k/year after tax, spend 30k/year living in an apartment, eat all meals out, and spend the rest of his time watching TV. This person would be FI in the usual 5 years and be retired extremely early if so desired. I wouldn't call that ERE though; or at least not the kind of ERE I blogged about or wrote a book about. It's more of a dialed-up version of early-retirement made faster by a high salary, i.e. 1) receive an extremely high salary 2) live like most people 3) retire in 5 years. That concept is self-evident---the hard part for 97% of the people is getting to the starting line (step 1) in the first place.
If the draw came mainly from permaculturists, simple living adherents, poets, etc. doing the math and increasing income would be the hard part.
I think it's good to reread
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wiki/ ... Principles out of which financials is only one component.
Some times I think this forum focuses too much on the money side of things, that is, using money, typically a high income, to compensate for the rest of the principles. Also there's often too much focus on the early time as if there was some kind of goal line to be reached as soon as possible lest it not be "extremely early". I think if seen that way, the event of reaching the goal line will be too much of a culture shock. ERE is a lifestyle. Lifestyles are not changed simply by reaching some magic number on a computer.
Of course people are free to do what they want, but if we really have to talk about ERE as a definition/criteria, I think age and FI are minor parts. Taken alone these do not create much in terms of resilience, robustness, serendipity, opportunity, and efficiency.
To give an extreme example, someone could earn $150k/year after tax, spend 30k/year living in an apartment, eat all meals out, and spend the rest of his time watching TV. This person would be FI in the usual 5 years and be retired extremely early if so desired. I wouldn't call that ERE though; or at least not the kind of ERE I blogged about or wrote a book about. It's more of a dialed-up version of early-retirement made faster by a high salary, i.e. 1) receive an extremely high salary 2) live like most people 3) retire in 5 years. That concept is self-evident---the hard part for 97% of the people is getting to the starting line (step 1) in the first place.
I agree with Jacob - "f the draw came mainly from permaculturists, simple living adherents, poets, etc. doing the math and increasing income would be the hard part." This is my background. I can live cheaply, garden, and buy almost nothing.
But I've never been able to increase my income long term, in part because of my lack of interest in mainstream values. I'm inclined to hand over investing to experts because I find it so uninteresting.
But I've never been able to increase my income long term, in part because of my lack of interest in mainstream values. I'm inclined to hand over investing to experts because I find it so uninteresting.
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My_Brain_Gets_Itchy
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For me personally, I think the financial part is the easy part because it only involves following rules and is formulaic. The key human trait being discipline (by products being focus and delay of gratification).
'Working on skills' for me translates broadly to 'finding purpose'. This is very unique to each individual, and there are no rules, its more or less open ended. (The key human trait hear may be introspection?)
You can somewhat draw inspiration from another person, but 'copying' their purpose is like copying someone else's art. Whereas financially, everyone is more or less copying the same set of rules to FI/ERE.
A very small portion of humans get the autonomy to consciously pursue finding a personal purpose in life, absent of monetary dependencies. This forum has as abundance of them, but is generally a population of outliers.
Finding purpose in life once one successfully wades past all the distractions and defaults that life defines for you (ie money, consumerism, status, etc) to me is much more difficult, and it is the road less travelled in life. However, living a life that is not of our conscious making is infinitely worse.
PS. Happy new year!
'Working on skills' for me translates broadly to 'finding purpose'. This is very unique to each individual, and there are no rules, its more or less open ended. (The key human trait hear may be introspection?)
You can somewhat draw inspiration from another person, but 'copying' their purpose is like copying someone else's art. Whereas financially, everyone is more or less copying the same set of rules to FI/ERE.
A very small portion of humans get the autonomy to consciously pursue finding a personal purpose in life, absent of monetary dependencies. This forum has as abundance of them, but is generally a population of outliers.
Finding purpose in life once one successfully wades past all the distractions and defaults that life defines for you (ie money, consumerism, status, etc) to me is much more difficult, and it is the road less travelled in life. However, living a life that is not of our conscious making is infinitely worse.
PS. Happy new year!
I think the financial part has so many facets, it's hard to say which part is harder or easier. For example there is a lot of emphasis on this forum on consumining less. Posts will say things like I'm doing this by pulling in expenses when challenged with the potential of upping investment returns. As I thought about it I realized its easier to cut back than increase income or wealth. E.g. Do I convince myself to drive less or do I modify my car to increase fuel efficiency?
As a student I cut back. Baked potatoes to heat my flat while cooking and stole napkins from the cafeteria. This was an important first step. And it was hard. Saving a big enough sum requires time, contribution, return and initial present value. Three out of four can benefit by cutting back. The return seemed the hardest for me. Luckily the math wouldn't let me ignore it.
Like all this it depends on who you are and what bag of tricks. Never hurts to have more tools in the bag. Car repair was my expertise and that was good...but I don't know how to remodel fixer upper homes so maybe hanging drywall would be good. Depends where you are and where you want to go. How about writing java based social media apps?
I've been retired for half a year now. Bored. I should take a class. I'm either shallow or burned out. Already have a fine collection of diplomas...don't want no more. Personally, this is hard but in a different way. Hey, everyone is different.
@itchybrain agree 100%. Living by your own rules is priceless. The majority of citizens give this up in a series of compromises.
As a student I cut back. Baked potatoes to heat my flat while cooking and stole napkins from the cafeteria. This was an important first step. And it was hard. Saving a big enough sum requires time, contribution, return and initial present value. Three out of four can benefit by cutting back. The return seemed the hardest for me. Luckily the math wouldn't let me ignore it.
Like all this it depends on who you are and what bag of tricks. Never hurts to have more tools in the bag. Car repair was my expertise and that was good...but I don't know how to remodel fixer upper homes so maybe hanging drywall would be good. Depends where you are and where you want to go. How about writing java based social media apps?
I've been retired for half a year now. Bored. I should take a class. I'm either shallow or burned out. Already have a fine collection of diplomas...don't want no more. Personally, this is hard but in a different way. Hey, everyone is different.
@itchybrain agree 100%. Living by your own rules is priceless. The majority of citizens give this up in a series of compromises.
@jacob
I want to challenge your 150k / 30k statement a bit, though you obviously get to define what you yourself mean by ERE. You've made previous posts about how for people at certain levels up and down on the income range some number of levels away income and/or spending is extreme and somewhat inconceivable. The 150k/30k people are likely not living at all like most people they associate with are living, which is what makes it extreme in my mind.
Separately, but related, I agree with bigato that achieving ERE does not require very many non-financial skills. It is mostly mental acceptance that the cost/benefit you get from lower consumption levels than you can otherwise support is worth it, combined with a realization that the cost is not really that high in the first place. I think there is at times a merging of the idea of skills that save you money (of which there are only few that do so in a meaningful way, at least in America, and they aren't that hard) and skills to help you survive the zombie apocalypse. The first is part of ERE and financial independence, but really limited, the 2nd (while it may contribute to a feeling of independence in a survivalist way) is not necessary to ERE.
I want to challenge your 150k / 30k statement a bit, though you obviously get to define what you yourself mean by ERE. You've made previous posts about how for people at certain levels up and down on the income range some number of levels away income and/or spending is extreme and somewhat inconceivable. The 150k/30k people are likely not living at all like most people they associate with are living, which is what makes it extreme in my mind.
Separately, but related, I agree with bigato that achieving ERE does not require very many non-financial skills. It is mostly mental acceptance that the cost/benefit you get from lower consumption levels than you can otherwise support is worth it, combined with a realization that the cost is not really that high in the first place. I think there is at times a merging of the idea of skills that save you money (of which there are only few that do so in a meaningful way, at least in America, and they aren't that hard) and skills to help you survive the zombie apocalypse. The first is part of ERE and financial independence, but really limited, the 2nd (while it may contribute to a feeling of independence in a survivalist way) is not necessary to ERE.
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jacob
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@dan23 -
1) That's only extreme relative to the few percent of the population of their professional peer group. It's not extreme relative to most other people. In a way it's similar to people making $500,000/year and complaining that they're struggling because they can't afford a maid anymore. That might be hard enough, but I think the 150k/30k problem is trivial compared to 150k/10k where most people would confuse the lifestyle for poverty when getting the dollar amounts.
2) I agree with that in a limited sense. Consider furniture making. I could most definitely furnish with milk crates and pallets for zero costs instead of spending time (and money) building my own. However, if the goal is to live better than consumers or to get involved in interesting projects like building a boat or restoring old furniture, developing skills has a lot of non-financial benefits. So yes, only looking at the financial issues can get you 80% of the way in terms of looking at FI. However, I think in terms of other aspects like doing other things, the time liberated by FI without the skills will only get you 20% there in terms of doing interesting things.
There are a few people on this forum who are not accumulating money for FI but rather use ERE principles to work as little as possible on a pay as you go basis. If you only need $5k/year, you could make it by working as a tax preparer for 4 months of the year. Or only taking the most interesting projects as a freelance programmer.
1) That's only extreme relative to the few percent of the population of their professional peer group. It's not extreme relative to most other people. In a way it's similar to people making $500,000/year and complaining that they're struggling because they can't afford a maid anymore. That might be hard enough, but I think the 150k/30k problem is trivial compared to 150k/10k where most people would confuse the lifestyle for poverty when getting the dollar amounts.
2) I agree with that in a limited sense. Consider furniture making. I could most definitely furnish with milk crates and pallets for zero costs instead of spending time (and money) building my own. However, if the goal is to live better than consumers or to get involved in interesting projects like building a boat or restoring old furniture, developing skills has a lot of non-financial benefits. So yes, only looking at the financial issues can get you 80% of the way in terms of looking at FI. However, I think in terms of other aspects like doing other things, the time liberated by FI without the skills will only get you 20% there in terms of doing interesting things.
There are a few people on this forum who are not accumulating money for FI but rather use ERE principles to work as little as possible on a pay as you go basis. If you only need $5k/year, you could make it by working as a tax preparer for 4 months of the year. Or only taking the most interesting projects as a freelance programmer.
@jacob
1) I agree it's similar to the complaints of the 500k people that we all like to make fun of. However, I think their complaints are almost as understandable from their position as anything the average person would say imagining living on 10k a year and I am doubtful as to whether the change is any easier for them to make (provide each starts from the point of spending most of their income). The majority of people making 200k+ incomes I've talked to (who aren't close to just out of school) cannot conceive of living on the income of the average American and think of that as poverty. I would guess that the mental difficulty of 150k/30k is just as high as 50k/10k.
2)
On the furniture example, you could also use freecycle or craiglist or other internet sources and get the furniture for little to no money. You could also have less furniture (since you probably have less stuff)
Building things is something that can occupy your time in an interesting way, but I would not assign it higher value than anything else that you might enjoy that occupies your time - it really depends on what you enjoy /find interesting. I far prefer reading a book or even just taking a walk to building anything and that is both free and requires no additional skills.
---
My basic idea is that:
a. Most enjoyable activities do not have to cost much money (the big expenses are housing, food, healthcare and transit - the needs not the enjoyable activities) and most skills do not save that much money.
b. It is not necessary for you to sync up what you enjoy with what saves you money to achieve FI (except in the sense that you should not engage in, if you enjoy them, the few activities out there that cannot help be expensive) and I think considering it a principle of ERE has some bias in favor of enjoying things that are "useful."
1) I agree it's similar to the complaints of the 500k people that we all like to make fun of. However, I think their complaints are almost as understandable from their position as anything the average person would say imagining living on 10k a year and I am doubtful as to whether the change is any easier for them to make (provide each starts from the point of spending most of their income). The majority of people making 200k+ incomes I've talked to (who aren't close to just out of school) cannot conceive of living on the income of the average American and think of that as poverty. I would guess that the mental difficulty of 150k/30k is just as high as 50k/10k.
2)
On the furniture example, you could also use freecycle or craiglist or other internet sources and get the furniture for little to no money. You could also have less furniture (since you probably have less stuff)
Building things is something that can occupy your time in an interesting way, but I would not assign it higher value than anything else that you might enjoy that occupies your time - it really depends on what you enjoy /find interesting. I far prefer reading a book or even just taking a walk to building anything and that is both free and requires no additional skills.
---
My basic idea is that:
a. Most enjoyable activities do not have to cost much money (the big expenses are housing, food, healthcare and transit - the needs not the enjoyable activities) and most skills do not save that much money.
b. It is not necessary for you to sync up what you enjoy with what saves you money to achieve FI (except in the sense that you should not engage in, if you enjoy them, the few activities out there that cannot help be expensive) and I think considering it a principle of ERE has some bias in favor of enjoying things that are "useful."
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secretwealth
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@jacob "Some times I think this forum focuses too much on the money side of things, that is, using money, typically a high income, to compensate for the rest of the principles. Also there's often too much focus on the early time as if there was some kind of goal line to be reached as soon as possible lest it not be "extremely early". I think if seen that way, the event of reaching the goal line will be too much of a culture shock. ERE is a lifestyle. Lifestyles are not changed simply by reaching some magic number on a computer."
Yeah, I would agree fully, and I think I'm completely guilty in this respect. I focus almost 100% on the financial aspect of ERE, partly because things like improving woodworking skills is just impractical when living in Manhattan, but honestly mostly because I'm lazy. I do think learning these skills is essential to making the transition to an ERE lifestyle. Take food for instance. Cooking your own food cheaply is an extremely important part of ERE, but if I went from my current lifestyle to never eating out it would be a shock to the system.
Yeah, I would agree fully, and I think I'm completely guilty in this respect. I focus almost 100% on the financial aspect of ERE, partly because things like improving woodworking skills is just impractical when living in Manhattan, but honestly mostly because I'm lazy. I do think learning these skills is essential to making the transition to an ERE lifestyle. Take food for instance. Cooking your own food cheaply is an extremely important part of ERE, but if I went from my current lifestyle to never eating out it would be a shock to the system.
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jacob
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Here's the kicker: Achieving FI is not the primary goal of ERE. It is simply a side-effect of following all the other ERE principles. (This is also why FI is just a single section---not even a chapter---albeit a large on in the book.)
Expenses can be lowered by doing without or living off freebies, but such methods are just the simplest means which are usually discovered first. There are other ways. If those other ways are pursued for their own sake, in particular if they are useful (usefulness is a very important point!), low spending automatically follows.
So what I'm saying is: There's [way] more to ERE than FI. In particular, a systems thinking approach to FI is better than the simplifying/sacrificing approach. Well, I guess it's not "better" per se, but that approach is what I consider to be "ERE", not the "high-salary" approach, the coupon/freecycle-approach, or the minimalist approach.
I've been able to leverage several skills into interesting pursuits: mountain biking, ocean racing, book publishing, woodworking, professional trading, ... I wouldn't say it's coincidental. Rather, I had a web of activities that made it possible to generate and enter such opportunities when they presented themselves.
If my preference had been one of clipping coupons and couch surfing as a means to become FI, I probably wouldn't have been able to get into these things. OTOH, with such preferences it wouldn't have been an issue
However, the web approach (compared to the strictly financial approach) is important to financial security in the sense that if the markets totally implode (Weimar hyperinflation), I can pick up earned income much more easily than someone who has spent the last 10 years talking walks and reading books or someone who's salaried in an industry that's being/been deprecated.
Expenses can be lowered by doing without or living off freebies, but such methods are just the simplest means which are usually discovered first. There are other ways. If those other ways are pursued for their own sake, in particular if they are useful (usefulness is a very important point!), low spending automatically follows.
So what I'm saying is: There's [way] more to ERE than FI. In particular, a systems thinking approach to FI is better than the simplifying/sacrificing approach. Well, I guess it's not "better" per se, but that approach is what I consider to be "ERE", not the "high-salary" approach, the coupon/freecycle-approach, or the minimalist approach.
I've been able to leverage several skills into interesting pursuits: mountain biking, ocean racing, book publishing, woodworking, professional trading, ... I wouldn't say it's coincidental. Rather, I had a web of activities that made it possible to generate and enter such opportunities when they presented themselves.
If my preference had been one of clipping coupons and couch surfing as a means to become FI, I probably wouldn't have been able to get into these things. OTOH, with such preferences it wouldn't have been an issue
However, the web approach (compared to the strictly financial approach) is important to financial security in the sense that if the markets totally implode (Weimar hyperinflation), I can pick up earned income much more easily than someone who has spent the last 10 years talking walks and reading books or someone who's salaried in an industry that's being/been deprecated.
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jacob
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And just to be clear, I fully realize that the cutting back/sacrificing/increase income, are the "natural" first steps.
When I first started (in 2000-2001), the first thing I did was to stop spending money almost entirely, switch the heat off, and only eat very basic meals, etc. While the meals where as much a time-issue (not time to cook), the other parts, that is, replacing consumerism with no-consumerism, sucked, probably because my finances were like 25k/6k rather than 150k/30k. I think it's much better to replace them with some sort of home/self-production. --- I also realize that this takes time. Yet that's what it's all about.
When I first started (in 2000-2001), the first thing I did was to stop spending money almost entirely, switch the heat off, and only eat very basic meals, etc. While the meals where as much a time-issue (not time to cook), the other parts, that is, replacing consumerism with no-consumerism, sucked, probably because my finances were like 25k/6k rather than 150k/30k. I think it's much better to replace them with some sort of home/self-production. --- I also realize that this takes time. Yet that's what it's all about.
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jacob
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I think the hurdle, at least for office workers, is often in breaking into making stuff. Putting things together in the real world requires an entirely different mode of thinking compared to the one used for spreadsheets and documents.
However, I've found that it gets easier and easier with each new skill added. These days it's even easier: Wanna learn anything? Someone already made a video on youtube with a demonstration.
I think cooking and bicycle repair are both useful, inexpensive, and quite forgiving in terms of starting points. It's hard to do much wrong with those.
However, I've found that it gets easier and easier with each new skill added. These days it's even easier: Wanna learn anything? Someone already made a video on youtube with a demonstration.
I think cooking and bicycle repair are both useful, inexpensive, and quite forgiving in terms of starting points. It's hard to do much wrong with those.
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RealPerson
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A change in lifestyle is right. It is a big jump to go from simply buying something, to trying to find it through freecycle, CL or some type of bartering. There is a lot more time involved with the second option. Moving from the crazy suburban lifestyle of driving from soccer games to swim practices, to taking lots of time to obtain goods that may even need repair, is a cultural shock.
On the learning side: I became part of freecycle in my area, but have not seen anything remotely useful for my household. We'll see how this goes. I did discover CL and have been selling a bunch of stuff collecting dust in the basement. This has been awesome. Have not used CL for purchases yet. Also, I have been selling my more expensive used books on Amazon. Works great and you get cash. For cheaper books I just started Paperbackswap.com. Very cool. I am excited about all these things. I can already see the results of all of this: my previously frequent stops at the ATM machine have almost ceased.
I have noticed that many people posting here seem to be not have kids. Considering the difficulty in turning kids around to ERE, this may not be coincidental. The suburban culture in a large American city is very influential when it comes to raising kids. If you don't fit the mold, the social pressure is very intense. I am finding converting to ERE much easier for myself than for my kids. My neighbors are getting used to seeing me ride my bicycle to commute (finding it somewhat amusing), but when my kids are not participating in XYZ, we get strange looks and interesting comments. I am interested in other people's experiences with the kids side of things, especially those living in suburbia.
On the learning side: I became part of freecycle in my area, but have not seen anything remotely useful for my household. We'll see how this goes. I did discover CL and have been selling a bunch of stuff collecting dust in the basement. This has been awesome. Have not used CL for purchases yet. Also, I have been selling my more expensive used books on Amazon. Works great and you get cash. For cheaper books I just started Paperbackswap.com. Very cool. I am excited about all these things. I can already see the results of all of this: my previously frequent stops at the ATM machine have almost ceased.
I have noticed that many people posting here seem to be not have kids. Considering the difficulty in turning kids around to ERE, this may not be coincidental. The suburban culture in a large American city is very influential when it comes to raising kids. If you don't fit the mold, the social pressure is very intense. I am finding converting to ERE much easier for myself than for my kids. My neighbors are getting used to seeing me ride my bicycle to commute (finding it somewhat amusing), but when my kids are not participating in XYZ, we get strange looks and interesting comments. I am interested in other people's experiences with the kids side of things, especially those living in suburbia.