College (again), Avoiding Burnout

[shadow]

Hello everyone,
I'm sure no one remembers me, but I posted about a year ago asking about a college major (viewtopic.php?f=24&t=10281). Well I am in my second semester now and still just as lost. I began as an Agricultural Operations Management major with very little in the way of a plan for what I would do with it (options included.... growing cannabis, and whatever else I could find) aside from eventually homesteading. My decision to homestead was based on fears of a coming societal collapse. I have not changed my mind that collapse is a probable occurrence but my thoughts around it have changed. I now realize I more or less like our society and want to enjoy its benefits while we still have them. Homesteading was never a real passion for me, more of an escape from what I believe is to come. For this reason I want to keep it open as an option but not commit myself to it, especially this early.

So I am essentially back to square one. I was considering environmental science, but then I picked up the ERE book from my shelf on a whim and read the epilogue. "What an institutional education resulting in a college degree does is to facilitate the replacement of your parents with your future boss(es), moving you from being dependent on your parents knowing better to being dependent on an employer knowing better" drove me back here. I had an ever increasing sense that I am being taught how to slave away for a boss for the rest of my life, and realized I had forgotten what I've learned from this goldmine of knowledge. Looking again at my previous options:

Accounting - appears to be a low stress financial job at the cost of some more required education
No no no no. Accounting is hell

Finance - I am very interested in finance (thanks ERE) but it seems like it tends to be a very high stress field in general (a =<40hr/wk career path in finance would be great)
Similar thoughts to accounting

Logistics - based on optimization which I enjoy (thanks ERE for making that clear to myself) and involves negotiation which seems like a relatively rare job responsibility but something that I would like, while maintaining a good work-life balance.
Maaaybe. Seems quite deep into corporate dreariness.

Statistics - I am in a stat class this year and I'm loving it but it seems to be pretty clear that "statistician" as a job will be replaced by "data scientist" very soon and I don't have a natural programming affinity or particular interest in data science
This is still an option.

Software development - I have some very very limited experience with programming and I have enjoyed it but I am not one of the kids that has been building computers since age 10 which gives me the same worry as with data science
Still an (unlikely option).

One option I have considered is an environmental science degree. These generally tend to be low-paying but I am in one of the top schools in the country in this department and I am able to do a double major to increase earning potential (statistics?).

Another is a degree in a natural science. Chemistry and biology interest me, but I highly doubt a bachelor's in biology would lead to much earning potential. I have no educational experience with physics but I believe it would interest me enough to earn a degree, but again I doubt that would lead anywhere besides grad school.

One door that is not open to me is engineering. Due to the way my school handles majors one has to specifically apply to the engineering department, and I would not meet the qualifications.


I am here again to hear you wise folks' further thoughts on my old choices, or the new ones. But also I have a question to ask. I have learned very quickly (failed an accounting class) that if something does not hold my interest it is near impossible to hold myself to it. For this reason at the moment I am willing to take a sizeable cut in max $ potential in order to ensure I can get through the major and 5-10 years of work in the field. For example: finance. I have the intelligence to cut it but I am sure I would not be able to slog through an undergrad program much less a career in it.

So my thought to put an interest constraint on maximizing pay flows from two premises:
1) More interest -> higher likelihood of following through
2) Less interest -> more desire to escape -> more spending on garbage

My question is does this make sense?
As I wrote this post it seems more and more like I have already made up my mind on the above question but I'm still at a loss for a major. Thank you for reading and for your thoughts.

[daylen]

If this thought process is not terminating in a decision then you need to alter it as much as possible. Try to get out of that fat head of yours (meant as a compliment).

Making this thread is a step in the right direction, but try to open up the question a bit more so you can get the answers you need (as opposed to the answers you want).

Who are you? Tell us a bit more about yourself.

[shadow]

Thanks Daylen, I could learn a lot from you.

As for myself, I am your average upper-middle class suburban white kid, originally from the outskirts of Chicago. My dad was a pick himself up by the bootstraps kind of guy; his small business failed after 9/11 and from what I know the family finances took a hit in 2008 as well, but he has managed to work himself into a very profitable career. After some talking with him I realized these humble beginnings probably started my interest in frugality and simple living. My mother struggled with mental health issues for a long time and thus didn't do much but she has recently (within a few years) started therapy and working as well (not necessarily a marker of good health....but for her it definitely is). From what I can remember I was pretty depressed in middle school. After moving to Florida and attending a gifted high school, the depression hasn't followed me, but the environment and a personal skew increased my anxiety. I haven't received a clinical diagnosis for either and don't think I have a disorder but have experienced higher than average levels of both.

Why I'm talking about my mental health I'm not entirely sure but it does play into my interests. As I hinted about before I have a tendency to become strongly interested in things and then peter off of them weeks or months after. I played guitar for about a year and a half in middle school and loved it but stopped for reasons unknown to me. I had about the same experience with drawing, around the same time. Now that I type it out I realize depression probably had an influence on both of those. I did taekwondo when I was very young, but stopped that as well.

I played baseball for six years but quit that shortly into high school; that could be marked up to me not fitting in with the team. My music interest took the form of electronic music production. During high school I developed a cannabis habit. Looking back I was probably self medicating for anxiety without realizing it (definitely got me out of the house, perhaps too much). I managed it pretty well but as drugs do I think it replaced my other activities and interests. I stopped any involvement in music. Of the interests I kept, philosophy is pretty high on the list. I debated in high school and enjoyed reading philosophy as a part of it. I also developed, with the influence of a long time friend and this forum, an interest in the environment that still persists.

In my first semester of college, my cannabis habit kicked into a full on, several-times-a-day dependency. This worsened my emotional regulation and kept me from leaving the house almost ever (I had all online classes further worsening the isolation). This culminated in or at least played a part in the end of a years long relationship and panic attacks. After those events I decided to quit the weed and get my shit together. Now that I am out of the haze I realize my major choice was foolish, which is why I am here. My interest in the environment still persists and has developed into my theories about collapse ( I will probably write another post on this). One positive development coming out of last semester was that I began Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. This has been great for my mental and physical health and confidence as well as being deeply interesting as a self defence method and sport. I had avoided physics previously because of my self perceived dislike/inaptitude for math, but BJJ is very intertwined with physics making me now think I might enjoy physics. I also read Siddhartha for class which had been on my list since I saw Jacob recommend it, and it has somewhat sparked my interest in philosophy again. Another interest that I have sustained since high school is cooking, which I am still involved in. The reason I am also considering statistics for a major is my previously mentioned stats class which I liked, and the fact that I like to/naturally think in terms of probability and risk.

Really didn't expect to give such a detailed biography but there's my life in an essay, lol.

[George the original one]

Your degree does not make your career! And one's life can have multiple careers!

Of my friends from high school...
History degree --> computer analyst --> early retiree
Political Science degree --> OSHA inspector
trade school diesel mechanic --> real estate agent
General Studies (English degree without 2yrs of foreign language) --> technical writer --> computer analyst --> early retiree
Physics degree --> CIA (never heard from again)
Electrical Engineering --> engineer --> early retiree --> photographer specializing in Japanese swords & metal work
Mechanical Engineering degree --> engineer
Math degree --> programmer --> unemployed bum
Math degree --> Math PHD --> game designer & math professor
failed college --> army --> failed college again --> professional game player employed by the game designer
aborted college --> navy --> Psychology degree --> computer analyst --> early retiree
marines --> VA computer analyst --> VA computer manager

[shadow]

Thanks for the reply George. Seems like you made a lot of cool friends in high school. From my limited perspective, you're definitely right that my degree won't make my career; I guess I framed my OP poorly. I am just looking to make the most of college and open the right doors.

[George the original one]

Reading through your list, it seems combining statistics with another interest would make a strong degree for employment opportunities. While environmental sciences are the obvious fit, it will not lead to rewarding work unless you have a doctorate because anybody without a doctorate in the environmental sciences is looked down on.

Considering some of your interests, how about a degree in physical education or sports medicine? Do you have any interest in teaching?

[shadow]

George,

I thought about teaching (high school) for a while but it doesn't resonate with me, not entirely sure why. That said, PE and sports medicine are two options I had never given a thought to before. Thanks for that, I will do some digging on them.

[chenda]

Maybe look at medical careers; nursing is very ERE compatible and would be a useful alternative to homesteading. Or an aviation career of you want to ride the high before the fall. Quite a few careers there which dont need a degree.

[jacob]

Do you want a job or a career? Will you work mainly for the money or because it's somehow meaningful and money matters less?

If interests aren't stable, it's better to pick something you're talented at rather than something that's interesting. This includes the degree as well.
Things often get interesting once you dive into them insofar you're any good at it. Personality typing can help to reveal talents but presumably you already know.

I suggest looking through job ads. Primarily this is to gauge demand. The ads will also tell you the prerequisites. Demand is your first screen. Your talent in the prerequisites is the second screen. The third screen should be either interest or if you have a good 'in', like e.g. the school is particularly famous or there's a fancy program.

[EdithKeeler]

I’d say choose a major that can go into some different directions, if you’re not quite sure what to do. Most people i know didn’t end up working at what they got their degree in.

Me: English major, work in insurance
DBF: history major, became a lawyer (a fairly common trajectory)
Pal: art major, work in insurance (with a lucrative side gig in art)
College roomie: accounting, did for a while, opened a catering business.
And on....

Sounds like you like numbers so stats, economics, and mathematics are all good bets, especially if you sprinkle on some business classes. You’d be a good hire in an insurance company in underwriting or actuarial, both of which can be pretty lucrative. Or you could parlay those majors into jobs at other types of companies as well. Hospitals like people with math and stats backgrounds.

[jacob]

@EK - Not sure I like the "flexible major" strategy from a practical or low-stress perspective. I studied physics which can go in many directions, but when one is standing there newly graduated, "anywhere" is effectively the same as "nowhere" or rather "whatever comes up first".

I'd prefer it if a degree was at least associated with a "default path".

FWIW, physicists tend to split into: high school teaching, tech support, management/consulting, weapons, finance, or research... in roughly that order. However, none have a straight path to first job, and one has to argue/explain what a physics major can do.---Which is kinda hard w/o real world experience.

[The Old Man]

Since you are in college, then you should think about internships. Internships commonly lead to employment. So, check with your school to find out what is being sought. You want to play this game on easy mode, so choose a major based on internship availability.

[TopHatFox]

Out of the ones you listed and if you don’t want trades:

1. Computer Science
2. Accounting —> CPA
3. Chemistry (but chemical engineering is better)

All the other ones are basically a waste of your time and money post-college. Biology sounds promising, but it’s overplayed by the legions of dropout doctors and PAs. Nursing is better. You do not want anything with the word studies, business, bio-whatever, or the liberal arts. You want something with a high salary in the BLS that you like or at least don’t hate and you’re okay to good at it. You want something that has a skill you can monetize at the end of the degree that you otherwise wouldn’t have had had you not gone to college. You or somebody is paying lots of money for you to gain skills that increase your access to better and higher paying jobs.

Your degree or trade has a MASSIVE effect on your career and life satisfaction post-grad. Do NOT take this choice lightly. Same with how much debt you take on.

[classical_Liberal]

Your degree or trade has a MASSIVE effect on your career and life satisfaction post-grad. Do NOT take this choice lightly. Same with how much debt you take on.

This is from the viewpoint of someone only 2-3 years post undergrad and still in grad school. With two undergrads, twenty years after completing the first, I agree with @GTOO. Not to disparage @THF's comment, but I think this opinion really depends how far down the road of life you are.

I've tried many different things in my life. Basically, I have determined that there are only a few career trajectories that really require a long-term specialized path. By long-term I mean a decade or more of schooling and job experience. Things like MD, tenured professor, etc. These things are "callings" and require lots of long term commitment. So if you want something like that, then you need to focus on career trajectory now, and make the commitment. Otherwise, you're pretty safe to experiment.

[ertyu]

Seconding the advice of internships >>> major choice. A general major will not lead to the kind of aimlessness jacob is describing if backed up with sufficient internship experience.

[TopHatFox]

Again, maybe not, but it’s likely to. Look at Millenial and Gen Z stats if you want confirmation. On the whole, the ones that studied a major that had a clear, in-demand job at the end of it (accounting, nurse, PA, Chemistry, Electrical Engineer, Computer Science, Plumber, Carpentry, Long Haul Trucker) are eons ahead income-wise of the ones that majored in something open or over-supplied (history, biology, psychology, gender studies, environmental science, business, literature, and so on).

I had like five internships, and so did my friends - what helped us was full-time work experience or an in-demand major. The comp sci grads made 100k out the door doing interesting work. A friend of mine that majored in literature is 70k in debt and living with the parents. Another that majored in French is working at Forever 21 at 28 years old and not by choice. High IQ and drive or not here, we should use statistical averages to our advantage:

Make your life easy and combine an in-demand skill that you’re good at with minimalism.

This is literally the easiest point in which to make the change. Make the wrong choice and you may end up having to go back to school in your late 20’s.

[Loner]

Sounds like a tough time. I think it can feel even tougher, when you are young, and everyone tells you that your future well-being, happiness, income, and indeed life, hinge on this very career decision. It doesn't, as already shown here many times. It's normal to be a bit stressed. It can indicate that you take the decision seriously and want to do well. That's normal. But as others have pointed out, your degree now will not dictate the rest of your life.

I know some guy who studied history and went on to be a portfolio manager or something like that ("Are you skilled for this?", I asked, upon seeing him after 5 years. "Oh, I just use pre-determined allocations after giving them a quiz".) Some other acquaintance dropped out of school ("troublemaker") and became a tv star. You have to find your place.

Both "follow your passion!" and its polar-opposite-advice "Follow the money" have their pitfalls and their advantages. Many of my friends did what you are pondering, i.e. choose a high paying major. They now come home in a BMW to drink wine alone on a Tuesday while waiting to go sleep, alone, since their spouse is away, still at work. Of course, the flip side is the philosopher-barista.

Ideally, I think it is best not to overthink it. Perhaps continue in your major if it still holds interest for you? It seems to tie-in relatively well with you long standing interest in the environment. You can fill-in the (work) details when you get closer to finishing.

Remember that nothing is lost. Even if this diploma doesn't bear fruit immediately in the form of a high-paying, interesting job right out of school, it might come out useful later on in a way you had not anticipated. It might lead to jobs you had not thought about.

Remember also that you cannot learn about yourself just by introspecting. Sometimes, even just knowing your preferences is difficult, and they cannot be revealed just by thinking about it. Some experimenting is often in order to discover what you like. So maybe you could try summer jobs in different domains? Internships? Low start-up cost side business?

@cimorene Thanks for sharing. I was not even aware about that. I always presumed the earnings gap persisted. I'll look into this more.

[TopHatFox]

@Cimorene, I disagree, this decision absolutely has lifelong consequences.

There is a reason why there is currently an outstanding 1.5 trillion dollar student loan bubble with a good chunk of people unwilling or unable to make their loan payments. I cannot trust the bias of a New York Times article likely written by an English major who cherry picked sources to suit their argument, much like one would in an introductory English class.

That said, you don't have to agonize about the major either. Just stay out of debt as much as possible and choose something with a marketable skill and clear job at the end of it that you hopefully like. Then, work and live frugally. A healthy single male with no dependents only needs 7-20k to live in most places in the US, even with a car. But it's so much nicer to live on 20k and make $40/hour as a remote CS major (if you like that) than as a generic, in-house office worker with a humanities degree earning $15-20/hour.

Sure, being an entrepreneur is always an option for a savvy college graduate of any degree, but you don't need a degree for that. Anything that you don't absolutely need a degree for is better taught via the plethora of free information outlets available (CS is interesting in that regard), rather than paying $500/credit to kinda-sorta learn it.

[George the original one]

Of course, the flip side is the philosopher-barista.

I thought it was the tatooed bicycle messenger?

Lots of career sub-cultures out there.

[Loner]

@GTOO Ah yes, it is, in a way, for sure. But sorry, I think I expressed myself poorly. I just meant that the risk with "Follow your passion" advice is that it leads to a degree with very few (obvious, related) work opportunities (hence the philosopher-barista) while risk with the "Follow the money" advice is that you end up moneyed yet miserable (which I've seen often). A bit too obvious, maybe, but I've talked with many people who believed strongly in one or the other advice. I just think it's important to consider both money/work possibilities and interest in the work itself.